X-Universe >> View Thread
1 2 3 4  >> All
Author
The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 461


Maybe this will be followed by the prompt departure of the 5 displaced young X-Men...

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/articles/after-14-years-jean-grey-returns-to-marvel-comics/1100-156480/


Thoughts?


Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on MacOS X
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995


I'm not celebrating until I finish reading the arc, and it's certain. We've been fooled so many times with fake Jean returns.

If true, then it's about damned time!

And yes, send the brats back home. Way past time for that, too.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930




    Quote:
    Maybe this will be followed by the prompt departure of the 5 displaced young X-Men...



    Quote:
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/articles/after-14-years-jean-grey-returns-to-marvel-comics/1100-156480/



    Quote:

    Thoughts?


Yay. Maybe the dark time is over? We can get back to our characters instead of their clones/past selves/alternate timeline/changed gender replacements.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
The Voice of Reason


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 461


As always Guardian and Reverand, your points are valid and your concerns well-founded. We won't get fooled again.


Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on MacOS X
Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 621


I seriously don't understand the purpose for this (I mean, I do, but I don't think that the majority of fans want Jean back.), when did people start going crazy for Jean? It certainly wasn't when she was alive. And she's been dead for long enough to keep her that way. Morrison had a classic run. I hated Jean's death at the time, but it's stuck around long enough. It seems like the only story that people remember regarding Jean was The Dark Phoenix Saga (You know, the story where she DIED!). Another step backwards for the X-franchise.


Posted with Google Chrome 48.0.2564.116 on Windows 10
UName


Member Since: Tue Mar 10, 2015
Posts: 305


Marvel has outright said she will be returning, not sure what else they can do.

"The return of (Adult) Jean Grey".

Previous teasers/tricks has always been ambiguous including Phoenix imagery and so. Never promised a return either even when Jean Grey was actually involved (Endsong).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,493




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930



What's the point of keeping her dead. Especially when they trot out Hope Summers and time displaced teen Jean.

Let's just have the real Jean and all the ersatz Jean can leave.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995


Not really scientific, mind you, but...

A recent poll at CBR was asked, "Should Jean headline an Uncanny X-men relaunch?"

A whopping 85% of responders said YES!

Another poll at the same site asked (shortly before this news broke), "Which X-Characters would you want to be resurrected?"

Jean and Scott (33 and 27%, respectively) topped the list. A very distant 3rd place was Madrox (9%). Wolverine, Banshee, and any of the New X-Men kids were tied for 4th place (5%) (even if technically Banshee is alive).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930




    Quote:
    I seriously don't understand the purpose for this (I mean, I do, but I don't think that the majority of fans want Jean back.), when did people start going crazy for Jean? It certainly wasn't when she was alive. And she's been dead for long enough to keep her that way. Morrison had a classic run. I hated Jean's death at the time, but it's stuck around long enough. It seems like the only story that people remember regarding Jean was The Dark Phoenix Saga (You know, the story where she DIED!). Another step backwards for the X-franchise.


1. Jean shouldn't have been killed in the first place (er...second place...the Dark Phoenix death was fine)

2. If Marvel got along fine without her we wouldn't have Rachel, Hope and teen Jean running around.

3. Morrison's run wasn't that great IMO. I liked all the weird new students but the stories themselves kinda stunk.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,715



    Quote:
    I seriously don't understand the purpose for this (I mean, I do, but I don't think that the majority of fans want Jean back.), when did people start going crazy for Jean? It certainly wasn't when she was alive. And she's been dead for long enough to keep her that way. Morrison had a classic run. I hated Jean's death at the time, but it's stuck around long enough. It seems like the only story that people remember regarding Jean was The Dark Phoenix Saga (You know, the story where she DIED!). Another step backwards for the X-franchise.


You make a good point. Back in the Claremont/Byrne days, I never felt Jean Grey was anywhere near as popular as some of the other X-Men, in particular Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Kitty Pryde.

I loved her when the X-Men were a bald old guy, Jean, and four teen-age boys. She shone like the sun in those stories. It really seemed like she was the sun and the other characters (all male) revolved around her like planets. But that iteration of the X-Men was never very popular. It struggled to stay in publication and eventually was cancelled. And then Giant-Size happened! Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Banshee. Boom! That was the line-up that mattered. Banshee died, Kitty Pryde joined, others came and went - it never felt like Jean (or even Xavier, Jean, and Scott) held the central spot(s) on the team. Not any more. Even the Scott/Jean romance became a love triangle with Wolverine as the hypotenuse.

I honestly think Jean could have been developed into the premiere superheroine in the Marvel Universe. But instead, she was killed off.






Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,659


My hope (pun intended) is that she was Hope Summers all along, so we can never have to suffer through another Hope story again. Then she can open a portal with her Phoenix powers and send the teen O5 packing.

Then she can join the Avengers. She never had much luck with the X-Men. I always thought Jean and Steve would make a nice couple - they could be the Reed and Sue of the Avengers.




And a lean, silent figure slowly fades into the gathering darkness, aware at last that in this world, with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!
Posted with Google Chrome 61.0.3163.91 on Windows 10
America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,715



    Quote:
    My hope (pun intended) is that she was Hope Summers all along, so we can never have to suffer through another Hope story again. Then she can open a portal with her Phoenix powers and send the teen O5 packing.


I actually wonder if there's any real plan for sending the O5 back. It will have to include a memory wipe. And a reversion back to normal for Warren's wings.


    Quote:
    Then she can join the Avengers. She never had much luck with the X-Men. I always thought Jean and Steve would make a nice couple - they could be the Reed and Sue of the Avengers.


You actually want Jean to join the Avengers? To me, she'd be lost in the crowd there. And you actually want her to get romantic with Steve-I-am-not-a-Nazi-Rogers? I'd rather see her with a different Invader: Namor. At least he's a mutant. And we know from the Jean Grey series that he admires adult Jean as a serious threat in any battle. And being able to "tame" the savage Sub-Mariner with her charms and sheer awesomeness would enhance her aura of feminine mystique.






Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930




I say let's just lezzie her up and pair her up with a lady. That way no more idiot offspring from the future whining about how their lives suck. Just nip that whole thing in the bud by having Jean swear off penises. Pair her up with Storm...she's about half lesbian anyways...and who does she love more than Jean? Nobody.

Reverend Meteor (I hate Rachel, Cable, Stryfe, and X-Man with a passion)



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,413



    Quote:
    Maybe this will be followed by the prompt departure of the 5 displaced young X-Men...



    Quote:
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/articles/after-14-years-jean-grey-returns-to-marvel-comics/1100-156480/



    Quote:

    Thoughts?


The power of undeserved nostalgia strikes again.

I for one am very much against it. The first time they did it, at the launch of the original X-Factor, is the event I have always considered the one where the rot set in within the X-franchise. Among other things it destroyed Cyclops as a character, and to his recent death I would say he still hasn't recovered. And the very negative effects of the revival of the O5 then were IMO purely due to the nostalgia of a bunch of fans-turned-creators, i. e. to the same kind of forces that destroyed the Spider-franchise in 2007 with "One More Day" etc.

The second time they did it, with the time-displaced O5 (we've been given to understand by Marvel that they really are the original five X-Men, not people from an alternate timeline) was, as far as I can see, despised by a large part of X-fandom. So teen Jean is the "one true Jean", just younger, and remembering the blandness of adult Jean, I am very skeptic about the likely effects of replacing Jeen with Jean, and I consider the argument that the existence of teen Jean somehow proves that adult Jean must return nonsensical.

Neither does the existence of Rachel prove that adult Jean must return. Rachel is by far the more interesting character of the two, and they have coexisted in the past (and currently co-exist with Jean=Jeen). Some might even say that Madelyne Pryor (has she been mentioned in this thread so far?) was more interesting than Jean.

Cable (and by extension Stryfe) may be a crappy character, but that's how he was created before it was decided to make him Scott and Madelyne's son. The fact that this was retconned in later was merely one of the many consequences of the disastrous first revival of Jean Grey (ca. X-Factor #1).

Hope is someone I consider more a plot device than a character. Had Jean still lived at the time, Hope would probably still have appeared in the same storyline, only in that case she might not have resembled Jean as much. At least IMO. ;\-\)





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,493



    Quote:
    What's the point of keeping her dead.


... because she has never been more interesting in a book than during the original Dark Phoenix story.

Normally, I always prefer old-school Silver Age characters to newer ones.

For example, Silver Age villains : I dislike when a newcomer easily wins against a veteran.

Still, Jean Grey & Scarlet Witch are two of my exceptions.

Stan Lee is a genius when it comes to write about male characters ... not so much about women.

It can be explained by the fact that Silver Age superhero comics were written to be read by 1960s male teenagers.

Ororo, Kitty Pryde, Meggan, Firestar, Mirage, Illyana, 1980s Rachel Summers, are a 1000 times more interesting than classic Jean Grey ever was and ever will be.

She only became interesting during the Dark Phoenix story because it was fascinating to see, for the very first time, a major good character becoming a cosmic threat to everyone and because there was a moral dilemma about her fate.

Then, she was brought back in X-Factor and her return created much more mess than it added value.

Also, the character was totally bland compared to other female characters of the same period. The only true event was her lackluster wedding with Cyclops.

Then, much later, after decades of stories during which nothing happened to Jean Grey, Grant Morrison had no choice but to imagine something, anything, to make her less boring ... and the Phoenix comes back, and she dies again.

So, what's the point ? Rachel Summers as the Phoenix has always been more interesting than her mother.



    Quote:
    Especially when they trot out Hope Summers and time displaced teen Jean.

    Let's just have the real Jean and all the ersatz Jean can leave.


Yes but they can leave without Jean coming back. \:\-\)


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Grey Gargoyle


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,493




Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995


And to be technical, Jean has actually been alive since Endsong. She was alive at the end of that mini. So, this really isn't anything.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930



I don't think Jean's boring. It's just the way they use her is awful.

Madelyne Pryor, the Phoenix, Rachel, Cable, her annoying attraction to smelly Wolverine. They just do bad stuff TO her. They never use her. She's like the Scarlet Witch...she exists to be life's punching bag. They lurch from catastrophe to catastrophe. And it's never really ABOUT them or what they want or their desires. They're both just always caught up in a bunch of nonsense that gets inflicted on them.

If they got rid of all these alternate timeline relatives, cosmic entities and aliens slaughtering her real family members maybe Jean would be ok. Jean sucks because of everything the writers do to always tear her down. No one has bothered to really let her be happy or in control of her life.

I mean has she really been in control of her life since the 70's?





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930






    Quote:
    The power of undeserved nostalgia strikes again.


Nonsense. She was an original Stan Lee character. Rachel, Hope, Maddie and all these other Jean knock offs aren't.

What was the point of killing her off in the first place? So we could get years of Cyclops romping with Emma. Whatever the plan it never turned into anything interesting. (Emma's sassy comments got old quick)


    Quote:
    I for one am very much against it. The first time they did it, at the launch of the original X-Factor, is the event I have always considered the one where the rot set in within the X-franchise. Among other things it destroyed Cyclops as a character, and to his recent death I would say he still hasn't recovered. And the very negative effects of the revival of the O5 then were IMO purely due to the nostalgia of a bunch of fans-turned-creators, i. e. to the same kind of forces that destroyed the Spider-franchise in 2007 with "One More Day" etc.


It is so not the same thing. Bringing back a long standing character is not the same as the devil warping reality and robbing a franchise of 20 years of history.


    Quote:
    The second time they did it, with the time-displaced O5 (we've been given to understand by Marvel that they really are the original five X-Men, not people from an alternate timeline) was, as far as I can see, despised by a large part of X-fandom. So teen Jean is the "one true Jean", just younger, and remembering the blandness of adult Jean, I am very skeptic about the likely effects of replacing Jeen with Jean, and I consider the argument that the existence of teen Jean somehow proves that adult Jean must return nonsensical.


Complete nonsense. If Jean was useless then why have teen Jean?

Jean matters or she doesn't. If she doesn't then don't use teen Jean. If she does then use the original. This idiotic idea Marvel is doing where they are using teen Jean and Old Man Logan instead of deciding to let the characters rest or using the originals is what is nonsensical. Use the originals or let the originals stay dead. Don't let the originals stay dead and use their idiot past and future selves. It's f*cking retarded. These derivative characters are the rot killing the X-Men franchise. No one's an original anymore...they've been replaced with their alternate timeline knock off or clone or long lost child.


    Quote:
    Neither does the existence of Rachel prove that adult Jean must return. Rachel is by far the more interesting character of the two, and they have coexisted in the past (and currently co-exist with Jean=Jeen). Some might even say that Madelyne Pryor (has she been mentioned in this thread so far?) was more interesting than Jean.


I never found Rachel interesting. Not the hound stuff. Not the whining about how her mommy and daddy from an alternate timeline shouldn't be able to live their own lives so she could born into the crappy future she came from. And that little rat tail she had. Never liked her. But unlike teen Jean she's a character in her own right. At least she's that.


    Quote:
    Cable (and by extension Stryfe) may be a crappy character, but that's how he was created before it was decided to make him Scott and Madelyne's son. The fact that this was retconned in later was merely one of the many consequences of the disastrous first revival of Jean Grey (ca. X-Factor #1).


Cable was crappy before he became Scott and Madelyne's son. He became crappier still with the revelation. I'm all for revealing it isn't true and that Cable is NOT Scott and Madelyne's son. Scott and Jean would both be better off not being connected to that trash character.


    Quote:
    Hope is someone I consider more a plot device than a character. Had Jean still lived at the time, Hope would probably still have appeared in the same storyline, only in that case she might not have resembled Jean as much. At least IMO. ;\-\)


She is a plot device. I'm all for retconning her existence away next time the timeline burps and readjusts.







Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,930



Remind me what they are again?

Between them and Secret Wars ending the 616 universe I'm not exactly sure what they are supposed to be now.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
The Black Guardian 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 20,995


They're from some other alternate past. At least that's what was suggested at the end of the last series. They finally went back to the past, the very day Adult Beast got them, and saw the real O5 fighting Unus.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 10
America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Mon Aug 06, 2012
Posts: 9,715



    Quote:
    They're from some other alternate past. At least that's what was suggested at the end of the last series. They finally went back to the past, the very day Adult Beast got them, and saw the real O5 fighting Unus.


Which means the time time traveling O5 can die in our present without destroying our time stream. Which presumably was Marvel's "get out of jail card" all along. Bendis and Slott and others of that mind set are big on stuff like this. Do some bizarre plot line but leave a trap door through which you can toss the whole thing and bury it when the time comes to return to status quo. In other words, it's a glorified What If story. When it finally wraps up, nothing has changed, other than certain characters being saddled with unpleasant memories.






Posted with Google Chrome 60.0.3112.113 on Windows 10
Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 621


The deaths in Planet X did feel pointless, but Jean's has stuck around for a loooong time. It seems like the franchise has moved on, and there really isn't a reason other than nostalgia to bring her back.


Posted with Google Chrome 48.0.2564.116 on Windows 10
Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 621


Resurrections like hers (And Jason Todd, Ben Reilly, etc.) are a step backwards for the franchise.


Posted with Google Chrome 48.0.2564.116 on Windows 10
Comicguy1


Member Since: Tue Apr 04, 2017
Posts: 621


Writers have pretty much respected that, and kept Emma an X-Man and Jean dead. Well, at least the beast mutation has stuck around.


Posted with Google Chrome 48.0.2564.116 on Windows 10
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,413



    Quote:

    I don't think Jean's boring. It's just the way they use her is awful.



    Quote:
    Madelyne Pryor, the Phoenix, Rachel, Cable, her annoying attraction to smelly Wolverine. They just do bad stuff TO her. They never use her. She's like the Scarlet Witch...she exists to be life's punching bag. They lurch from catastrophe to catastrophe. And it's never really ABOUT them or what they want or their desires. They're both just always caught up in a bunch of nonsense that gets inflicted on them.



    Quote:
    If they got rid of all these alternate timeline relatives, cosmic entities and aliens slaughtering her real family members maybe Jean would be ok.


Translation: If they rebuilt the X-universe to revolve around this character that I like for whatever reason (apparently not for how she actually appeared in the stories) that would be AWESOME. But only maybe.

Yes, that really is an excellent reason to bring Jean back ;\-\)


    Quote:
    Jean sucks because of everything the writers do to always tear her down. No one has bothered to really let her be happy or in control of her life.



    Quote:
    I mean has she really been in control of her life since the 70's?


Was she ever really been in control of her life in the 1960s or 1970s for that matter?



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,413



    Quote:



    Quote:


      Quote:
      The power of undeserved nostalgia strikes again.



    Quote:
    Nonsense. She was an original Stan Lee character. Rachel, Hope, Maddie and all these other Jean knock offs aren't.


She was a stereotypical Stan Lee-type "good girl", and like pre-motherhood Sue Storm, original Wanda, and of course Betty Brant, Gwen Stacey, Victoria Bentley (remember her?), original Jane Foster etc. that made her nice, sensible and pretty bland (as well as pretty, but bland). She did not have the streak of bad girl that characterised Stan Lee's more successful female creations (Black Widow, the Wasp, and of course Mary Jane Watson). In an interview conducted ca. 1981 in The X-Men Companion I, Dave Cockrum ("in the '60s, all the girl characters [Stan Lee] created were simps--the housewife heroes.") goes on about how he and Chris Claremont struggled to make her interesting. (Not knowing that that work would be largely undone when it was determined that Jean wasn't the Phoenix)


    Quote:
    What was the point of killing her off in the first place? So we could get years of Cyclops romping with Emma. Whatever the plan it never turned into anything interesting. (Emma's sassy comments got old quick)


I wouldn't complain if Grant Morrison's entire run had never happened, but the thing now is not to cry over spilt milk but to ask what would be the point of bringing Jean back other than to reunite her with Scott (not in itself that attractive a prospect given the complaints about the "JeanScott entity" from some quarters during the 1990s) and to prove once more that death is not very meaningful in the X-books? As far as I can see the main reason would still be a nostalgia not warranted by Jean's actual in-story form.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I for one am very much against it. The first time they did it, at the launch of the original X-Factor, is the event I have always considered the one where the rot set in within the X-franchise. Among other things it destroyed Cyclops as a character, and to his recent death I would say he still hasn't recovered. And the very negative effects of the revival of the O5 then were IMO purely due to the nostalgia of a bunch of fans-turned-creators, i. e. to the same kind of forces that destroyed the Spider-franchise in 2007 with "One More Day" etc.



    Quote:
    It is so not the same thing. Bringing back a long standing character is not the same as the devil warping reality and robbing a franchise of 20 years of history.


Way to miss the point. What I said was that the motivation of the creators involved was in effect the same. But the two events are comparable in that both cases the negative effects far outweighed the "good" they were supposed to do.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The second time they did it, with the time-displaced O5 (we've been given to understand by Marvel that they really are the original five X-Men, not people from an alternate timeline) was, as far as I can see, despised by a large part of X-fandom. So teen Jean is the "one true Jean", just younger, and remembering the blandness of adult Jean, I am very skeptic about the likely effects of replacing Jeen with Jean, and I consider the argument that the existence of teen Jean somehow proves that adult Jean must return nonsensical.



    Quote:
    Complete nonsense. If Jean was useless then why have teen Jean?



    Quote:
    Jean matters or she doesn't. If she doesn't then don't use teen Jean.


Amen.


    Quote:
    If she does then use the original. This idiotic idea Marvel is doing where they are using teen Jean and Old Man Logan instead of deciding to let the characters rest or using the originals is what is nonsensical. Use the originals or let the originals stay dead. Don't let the originals stay dead and use their idiot past and future selves. It's f*cking retarded. These derivative characters are the rot killing the X-Men franchise. No one's an original anymore...they've been replaced with their alternate timeline knock off or clone or long lost child.


I disagree with this.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Cable (and by extension Stryfe) may be a crappy character, but that's how he was created before it was decided to make him Scott and Madelyne's son. The fact that this was retconned in later was merely one of the many consequences of the disastrous first revival of Jean Grey (ca. X-Factor #1).



    Quote:
    Cable was crappy before he became Scott and Madelyne's son. He became crappier still with the revelation. I'm all for revealing it isn't true and that Cable is NOT Scott and Madelyne's son. Scott and Jean would both be better off not being connected to that trash character.


Oh please. This is just wanting to reconstruct the X-universe to suit your favourites and the dogmas you set up. As it was, the fact that little Nathan turned out to be Cable, that Jean and Scott spent several years in the future raising him, was the only thing that at least partially salvaged Scott's character. (It also showed that Grant Morrison's rationale for breaking Jean and Scott up because Scott's love for Jean was somehow immature is complete codswallop, but that is by the by).


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Hope is someone I consider more a plot device than a character. Had Jean still lived at the time, Hope would probably still have appeared in the same storyline, only in that case she might not have resembled Jean as much. At least IMO. ;\-\)



    Quote:
    She is a plot device. I'm all for retconning her existence away next time the timeline burps and readjusts.


And once again a fan wants continuity changed to suit the dogma they proclaim. Stopping to use her, if need be killing her off would be perfectly sufficient.





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 55.0 on Windows 7
1 2 3 4  >> All

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2017 Powermad Software