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Post By
Omar Karindu

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242
In Reply To
Century: Your Alien Hero

Subj: Re: Stop. HAMMER time!
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 at 03:11:11 pm EDT (Viewed 116 times)
Reply Subj: Stop. HAMMER time!
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 at 09:04:33 pm EDT (Viewed 106 times)

Previous Post

> I was trying to get you (t)rolling, and then I'd join in like old times. Perhaps this will help

Godammit, Marvel, why do you hate me so much? Why do you want the X-Men to suck? This. This is why I'm on the side of the Sentinels.

> But if we're gonna be serious....

Well, I'll see how long I can manage it, anyway.

> Plenty of people did get upset that Daredevil killed someone; I'm just saying that pretty much no in-character reaction would be "DD killed an Avenger!" And I include a hypothetical PR-rehabbed Norman Osborn on that side of matters.

Yeah, I'm probably the first person to make that argument, and even that was done in trolling mock-outrage. The most you'd likely see on the subject is some kind of "look at what he could have been if he'd been kept on his medication", which he apparently hadn't been since after Secret Invasion.

> Speaking of whom...I'm not really seeing the point of having Norman apparently partner up with what's left of HYDRA/HAMMER as the December solicits seem to promise. I suppose they're running with the idea that he knows all sorts of classified info from his government work, but it's really unclear how that will connect with the tattoo-cult story they were setting up in the Spider-books.

I've only read the first issue of his miniseries so far, so have no idea how that ended, and until the upcoming issues are out, it's hard to say if Norman's going to be operating in some manner of legitimate, sanctioned way, or if he's becoming The Kingpin of Super-Criminal Organisations. But Bendis' interviews on the subject suggest that we're less in for crazy-evil Norman, and more of him trying to be the "I could have fixed the world" Norman.

So the potential there is for Steve Rogers, who just want the Avengers to be what they always used to be, but now finds himself sitting in the job once held by Fury/Tony/Norman, and forced to walk into a more complicated than he's comfortable with world of moral compromises in the name of the greater good, to now both have internal friction with the leaders of his two Avengers teams, Luke Cage and Tony Stark, both of whom want to reform and modernise the concept of the team, but in totally different ways, Cage's more street-level focused approach, and Tony's belief that Super-human Registration and The Initiative were right, and then there's Norman with his rival Avengers team, fighting to fix the world and keep it safe through the means of Peace Through Tyranny, Take No Prisoners, if only he can keep from flipping out and ruining everything he's built yet again. Throw in the wild-card of Wonder Man and his Revengers trying to abolish the concept of the Avengers by punching them until they disband FOREVER, while the public and government support is divided between the various groups, and you could run the books for a couple of years off this "gang wars" theme.

But throwing Hydra and the Hand into the HAMMER mix is...weird, and you're right, I'm not sure how that's going to work. Both groups have apparently had their leadership assassinated, but hasn't the Kingpin taken over the Hand since Shadowland? I can't see Fisk working for Norman, and while Hydra haven't really had any ideology beyond world-domination and the abandonment of individuality in the service of Strucker's cult of personality, I guess maybe they could be attaching itself to a new leader capable of bringing about the world they want, but the Hand's apocalyptic demon-worship is totally at odds with the entire HAMMER ethos.

> I do think it's bizarrely dumb for DD to join the Avengers as if nothing happened. Look at the last time they let in a red-clad superhero with a tendency to go mental and/or be possessed by powerful demonic entities.....

Cripes, yeah. If he's really back, Scott Lang could flip out and become Myrmidon again at any moment, couldn't he?

Wait, I'm just being silly there. Clearly you were really talking about Spider-Man.

>> I was trying to get you (t)rolling, and then I'd join in like old times. Perhaps this will help

> Godammit, Marvel, why do you hate me so much? Why do you want the X-Men to suck? This. This is why I'm on the side of the Sentinels.

See, I don't hate Quentin Quire and the Scottish Run, but I still think this is a very, very bad idea. QQ's not a distinctive enough character, to my mind, to warrant constant reuse. How many tediously snotty uber-telepaths do the X-books need. (None. None is the answer.)

>> But if we're gonna be serious....

> Well, I'll see how long I can manage it, anyway.

Not very?

> > Plenty of people did get upset that Daredevil killed someone; I'm just saying that pretty much no in-character reaction would be "DD killed an Avenger!" And I include a hypothetical PR-rehabbed Norman Osborn on that side of matters.

> Yeah, I'm probably the first person to make that argument, and even that was done in trolling mock-outrage. The most you'd likely see on the subject is some kind of "look at what he could have been if he'd been kept on his medication", which he apparently hadn't been since after Secret Invasion.

Even so, I never got the sense any of the other characters liked him much. Even Norman toyed with killing him off at one point, as I recall.

> > Speaking of whom...I'm not really seeing the point of having Norman apparently partner up with what's left of HYDRA/HAMMER as the December solicits seem to promise. I suppose they're running with the idea that he knows all sorts of classified info from his government work, but it's really unclear how that will connect with the tattoo-cult story they were setting up in the Spider-books.

> I've only read the first issue of his miniseries so far, so have no idea how that ended, and until the upcoming issues are out, it's hard to say if Norman's going to be operating in some manner of legitimate, sanctioned way, or if he's becoming The Kingpin of Super-Criminal Organisations. But Bendis' interviews on the subject suggest that we're less in for crazy-evil Norman, and more of him trying to be the "I could have fixed the world" Norman.

The problem now is that the Marvel Universe is a bit more stable than it was during Dark Reign. There's no Atlantean terror threat, Norman himself preempted the Skrull takeover, and Registration probably isn't coming back for all sorts of reasons in and out of story. And he doesn't have a legitimate front anymore (though that may come back; see below). What's he going to do other than fight the Avengers for really silly reasons?

Of course, that's also how Bendis always writes Norman: a guy whose craziness torpedoes him almost entirely on its own. The weird thing in bendis's Avengers is that the villains lose, but not because the heroes beat them...or really do much of anything. They just sort of self-destruct most of the time, through going psychotic, internal fighting, and what have you. Well, except when the Sentry was there to just throw them into a large nearby naturally-occurring fusion reactor of some unspecified kind.

> So the potential there is for Steve Rogers, who just want the Avengers to be what they always used to be, but now finds himself sitting in the job once held by Fury/Tony/Norman, and forced to walk into a more complicated than he's comfortable with world of moral compromises in the name of the greater good, to now both have internal friction with the leaders of his two Avengers teams, Luke Cage and Tony Stark, both of whom want to reform and modernise the concept of the team, but in totally different ways, Cage's more street-level focused approach, and Tony's belief that Super-human Registration and The Initiative were right, and then there's Norman with his rival Avengers team, fighting to fix the world and keep it safe through the means of Peace Through Tyranny, Take No Prisoners, if only he can keep from flipping out and ruining everything he's built yet again. Throw in the wild-card of Wonder Man and his Revengers trying to abolish the concept of the Avengers by punching them until they disband FOREVER, while the public and government support is divided between the various groups, and you could run the books for a couple of years off this "gang wars" theme.

You could, but at least two of those factions -- Wonder Man's and Cage's -- don't seem like they're going anywhere very interesting. I'm not entirely sure why Cage's team has friction with anyone else's...or why it would need to call itself the Avengers, either. It probably doesn't help that I find Bendis's Cage one of the most boring characters I've ever seen in a starring role. He's not really allowed to have any interesting flaws or shortcomings, at least not in the material I've read; he's rapidly becoming Bendis's equivalent of Claremont's Storm.

The bigger problem is the Steve Rogers angle: the current Captain America title seems to be setting up Nick Fury's return to form, since Steve has gone back to his costume and all. I never quite got what Marvel wanted out of having Steve take the job and then, as far as I can tell, never actually do it. We never saw him grapple with moral compromise because he didn't create a new SHIELD or a new HAMMER or whatever. He just sort of hung around the Avengers model, to the point that Secret Avengers has been Just Another Team Book. As long as Marvel won't ever let Steve be wrong or look bad, this whole conflict is going to be pretty thin.

> But throwing Hydra and the Hand into the HAMMER mix is...weird, and you're right, I'm not sure how that's going to work. Both groups have apparently had their leadership assassinated, but hasn't the Kingpin taken over the Hand since Shadowland? I can't see Fisk working for Norman, and while Hydra haven't really had any ideology beyond world-domination and the abandonment of individuality in the service of Strucker's cult of personality, I guess maybe they could be attaching itself to a new leader capable of bringing about the world they want, but the Hand's apocalyptic demon-worship is totally at odds with the entire HAMMER ethos.

Gorgon's not with the Hand anymore, is he? Secret Warriors treated him like he was purely a HYDRA type. But h's still a nihilistic demon-worshipping loon, and now Viper/OG Madame Hydra has a weird alien squid-thing keeping her deceased body going, which seems like a poor choice of teammates for The Man Who Stopped the Skrulls. Hell, I can't work out how any of HAMMER is still around, since we saw its assets sold off to Justine Hammer and others at auction over in Iron Man.

I dropped the Osborn mini after issue 2 on the grounds of boringness, but supposedly it ended with Norman turning himself back in after killing his fellow, ultra-infamous (but brand-new!) fellow escapees and getting his corrupt senator friends to start proclaiming him some kind of vigilante hero. It might get him back to the legit role he needs, but it was about as ridiculous in the execution (heh!) as one could possibly imagine. I think any long-term Norman in the Avengers books is likely to be derailed by the Spider-books eventually, since the Goblin Cult storyline happened almost entirely in those comics and involves a onetime supporting character.

>> I do think it's bizarrely dumb for DD to join the Avengers as if nothing happened. Look at the last time they let in a red-clad superhero with a tendency to go mental and/or be possessed by powerful demonic entities.....

> Cripes, yeah. If he's really back, Scott Lang could flip out and become Myrmidon again at any moment, couldn't he?

I'm much more frightened of the Leader and.or Nightmare reasserting their power over Thaddeus Ross and creating Red Redeemer.

> Wait, I'm just being silly there. Clearly you were really talking about Spider-Man.

Nah, I'm worried about that crimson-caped Thunder God going berserker and making out with a hallucinatory female version of himself...again.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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