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Cyberhobo




Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.


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dave




> Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.

The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.

Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.

It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.

I'm more worried about the top issues.


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BlakGard




> Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you
> it is right.

Not true.

And the SHRA actually violates every amendment of the Bill of Rights except #3.
____________________



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emerick man




> > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
>
> The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.
>
> Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.
>
> It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.
>
> I'm more worried about the top issues.

One of the selling points to get heroes to 'sign on' was that working for them would be optional! Aaaand they were guaranteed anonymity too! Already they've coerced heroes (Spidey and Wondy come to mind) to do their bidding right out of the gates. There 'drafting' of the villains seems even more extreme (nanites indeed, Reed).

Felt since day 1, there were many concepts of the SHRA that made sense in the real world but making it work practically, and aesthetically, in the 616 literary world would not ultimately work. Marvel history of successfully marketted titles have traditionally mostly focussed on vigilante protagonists. Message board posters have already presented the many flaws with implementation of SHRA. So, it will not stay in effect when the mini is over, as a majority would likely predict, because shelling out to forever read about heroes supporting such a faulty IM/YJ/MrF regime would be financially frustrating.

C'mon, they guaranteed anonymity and right away BOTH sides have managed to already and successfully plant (a number) of spies on both sides! The downside of being on Cap's side is that even IF they win, many of the current heroes lose anyways cuz they are going to have a near impossible time to stay masked vigilantes. Villains, SHIELD, and JJJ will see to that, despite what is law.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Bryan D




> > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
>
> The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.
>
> Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.
>
> It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.
>
> I'm more worried about the top issues.


So cap was cool with us making allies of the Soviets in WWII, the terrorists in the USSR afghan war, corrupt South vietnamese governments?

Why would cap have such a change of heart now?

SHIELD has been a fairly good organization in the past, with a few exceptions which were interesting stories and a product of the 90s X-files inspired renassance of "the government is actually evil".

Every organization, country, etc.. has skeletons in their closets. They have all made deals with devils.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Super Rubbery Bung




> > > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
> >
> > The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.
> >
> > Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.
> >
> > It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.
> >
> > I'm more worried about the top issues.
>
> One of the selling points to get heroes to 'sign on' was that working for them would be optional! Aaaand they were guaranteed anonymity too! Already they've coerced heroes (Spidey and Wondy come to mind) to do their bidding right out of the gates. There 'drafting' of the villains seems even more extreme (nanites indeed, Reed).
>
Reed is a brilliant mind, but I've always seen him as a naive scientist. He's certainly a terrible father and an even worse statesman (everytime he goes to the UN someone seems to attack it \:\) )

> Felt since day 1, there were many concepts of the SHRA that made sense in the real world but making it work practically, and aesthetically, in the 616 literary world would not ultimately work. Marvel history of successfully marketted titles have traditionally mostly focussed on vigilante protagonists. Message board posters have already presented the many flaws with implementation of SHRA. So, it will not stay in effect when the mini is over, as a majority would likely predict, because shelling out to forever read about heroes supporting such a faulty IM/YJ/MrF regime would be financially frustrating.
>
Not to mention boring to the max. It was fun with the X-Men because they were an oppressed minority but not the entire US superhero populace.

> C'mon, they guaranteed anonymity and right away BOTH sides have managed to already and successfully plant (a number) of spies on both sides! The downside of being on Cap's side is that even IF they win, many of the current heroes lose anyways cuz they are going to have a near impossible time to stay masked vigilantes. Villains, SHIELD, and JJJ will see to that, despite what is law.>

Cap's side can never win until the law is repealed in Congress. Otherwise, we'll end up with a lot of dead/arrested/crippled superheroes for no good reason.

Ironically the leaders of the Anti-reg are all publicly known figures- Cap, Falcon, Black Panther and Luke Cage. And the most secretive people in the CW are the pro-reg side, who should be promoting transparency.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Pat




> > > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
> >
> > The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.
> >
> > Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.
> >
> > It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.
> >
> > I'm more worried about the top issues.
>
>
> So cap was cool with us making allies of the Soviets in WWII, the terrorists in the USSR afghan war, corrupt South vietnamese governments?
>
1. Cap was new at the time, the government that had just created him was allied with the Soviets, and the Soviets were the lesser of two evils in WW2; 2. Per Marvels sliding timescale, Cap was still in ice during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan; 3. Ditto for the Vietnam war

> Why would cap have such a change of heart now?
>
Lots more experience than in WW2, he is stronger in his beliefs having been screwed by the US Gov't during his days when he became Nomad and the Captain and countless other problems.

> SHIELD has been a fairly good organization in the past, with a few exceptions which were interesting stories and a product of the 90s X-files inspired renassance of "the government is actually evil".
>
> Every organization, country, etc.. has skeletons in their closets. They have all made deals with devils.


Posted with Apple Safari on MacOS X
Super Rubbery Bung




> > > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
> >
> > The right to a fair trial. People arrested by SHIELD are tossed into prison for a life sentence without a trial. Imagine how that kind of power could be used against people you don't like even.
> >
> > Also, SHIELD is forcing super humans to work for them. It's a super human draft. Drafing a certain type of person seems unconstitutional to me.
> >
> > It's not just about training and making people accountable. SHIELD wants all super people to work for them. If that happened, who would stand up to them? There would be no stopping a totalitarian governemnt. SHIELD is always making shady deals with bad people. What happens when the heroes aren't allowed to take down Hydra because SHIELD says so. This seems to be Cap's concern. Not just the registering but the fact that one agency controls a force that could cripple the planet.
> >
> > I'm more worried about the top issues.
>
>
> So cap was cool with us making allies of the Soviets in WWII, the terrorists in the USSR afghan war, corrupt South vietnamese governments?
>
He wasn't even alive at the time, he was either in suspended animation or in a block of ice. In Earth's Mightiest Heroes he goes to the Vietnam Veterans memorial and laments missing out on that one. In fact Cap missed the entire Cold War series of East-West conflicts; others like Iron Man, James Rhodes ,Nick Fury and Frank Castle went to Vietnam.

The USSR were not fighting 'terrorists' in the Afghan War, they were fighting local rebels who opposed a puppet communist government and the Russians. The Afghans have never been terrorists, though some have trained and harboured them before, often with no choice due to the lack of border controls and an abundance tribal loyalists. Cap would side with the Mujahedeen, not the USSR. If Nick Fury was CIA at the time he would have been helping the Mujahedeen via Pakistan as it happenned at the time.

> Why would cap have such a change of heart now?
>
He hasn't changed his mind at all, to him the government has betrayed its own constitution and endangered the lives and careers of many heroes and indirectly, the public. Cap didn't go through the duplicity of the Cold War era schools of thought like many others , he didn't see McCarthy or Scargill over in England. He even missed the Black Panther Party, Malcolm X , Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement in the 60s,

The 80s and 90s Marvel U allowed his values to coexist with the government- now they have clashed, at least two characters have told him it isn't the 40s anymore.

> SHIELD has been a fairly good organization in the past, with a few exceptions which were interesting stories and a product of the 90s X-files inspired renassance of "the government is actually evil".
>
> Every organization, country, etc.. has skeletons in their closets. They have all made deals with devils.>

Maria Hill's promotion is still strange to many, plus the formation of cape killer units and the 50 state initiative points to someone covertly changing SHIELD's direction.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Beasty Mark




> Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.

You are exactly right. Vigilantism is illegal. The Marvel government has tolerated it because of the good things, but now has decided to enforce the law.
Cap's arguments that villains knowing their ID's would make their families targets, and that it would open the heroes up to litigation can be answered by: "Yes, and cops deal with that everyday, why are YOU above the law?"
Also, it's called accountability. If you attack Nitro to boost your ratings, and Nitro kills many children, YOU ARE PARTLY RESPONSIBLE, and should be held accountable.




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Bryan D




I really didnt want to go down this road...

But Cap was taken out of Ice in march of 1964 , at least thats when the issue came out. Even if the history was 10 years off. cap would have still been alive when the US was involved in vietnam.

And my examples all APPLY.. The soviet invasion of Afghanistan happened in 1979 , and raged into the late 80s. Cap knew about it.

What about others i didnt mention..(that the public knows about) such as Iran/Contra affair , Panama , etc..And lets not forget all the shady moves the US has done in the 616 universe.

Cap as a SHIELD member and high profile adventurer would probably know of dozens of other black ops type moves that America has done to ensure their interests. He probably would have participated in some.

Cap is different things to different people. He doesnt always get portrayed consistantly.

And his depiction in Civil War is by far the most bi-polar, perplexing , and mind boggling depiction to date.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> > Nobody has a right to be a Vigelante even if Captain America tells you it is right.
>
> You are exactly right. Vigilantism is illegal. The Marvel government has tolerated it because of the good things, but now has decided to enforce the law.
> Cap's arguments that villains knowing their ID's would make their families targets, and that it would open the heroes up to litigation can be answered by: "Yes, and cops deal with that everyday, why are YOU above the law?"
> Also, it's called accountability. If you attack Nitro to boost your ratings, and Nitro kills many children, YOU ARE PARTLY RESPONSIBLE, and should be held accountable.
>

Unfortunatly we live in a world where people no longer like to be accountable for their actions.

"My son would never have killed that girl if it wasnt for those violent cartoons"...etc...

So it makes sense that some heroes would be like that as well. ;\)


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Super Rubbery Bung




> I really didnt want to go down this road...
>
> But Cap was taken out of Ice in march of 1964 , at least thats when the issue came out. Even if the history was 10 years off. cap would have still been alive when the US was involved in vietnam.
>
Are there any Vietnam-era set Cap stories out there?

> And my examples all APPLY.. The soviet invasion of Afghanistan happened in 1979 , and raged into the late 80s. Cap knew about it.
>
> What about others i didnt mention..(that the public knows about) such as Iran/Contra affair , Panama , etc..And lets not forget all the shady moves the US has done in the 616 universe.
>

Cap knows, but the US has several other black op units to do these things. He is their public face of superheroism, not their dark side. Nick Fury, on the other hand may have been involved in all these things.

> Cap as a SHIELD member and high profile adventurer would probably know of dozens of other black ops type moves that America has done to ensure their interests. He probably would have participated in some.
>
Again, someone else more suited to the job would have done it, though Steve certainly has probably participated in many open theaters of war such as the Gulf War, the Ranger debacle in Mogadishu and the Balkan conflicts. Stuff like toppling regimes, killing presidents and unleashing plagues is more on the SHIELD wavelength than his.

> Cap is different things to different people. He doesnt always get portrayed consistantly.
>
No comic character ever is, really.

> And his depiction in Civil War is by far the most bi-polar, perplexing , and mind boggling depiction to date.
>
This is arguably his first war in home soil, he's not representing America any more, but what he thinks are the liberties of America.
>


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