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Kenny_Blankenchip




Ok so we know that the new lineups are:

> > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > 1. Echo
> > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > 3. Doctor Strange
> > 4. Wolverine
> > 5. Spider-Woman
> > 6.Luke Cage
7.Spider-Man
8. Iron Fist
> >
and

> > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > 1. Iron Man
> > 2. Wasp
> > 3. Black Widow
> > 4. Wonder Man
> > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > 6. Sentry
> > 7. Ares

We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!

For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!

On the Mighty Avengers side you have-

For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.

My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Los Vengadore




The teams are supposed to be imbalanced: this way instead of having two moderately powerful teams both set to deal with roughly equal threats, we have one super-powerful team designed to deal with world-killer threats...and another team more for street-level problems and such. It'll create two different feels for the titles, instead of the stories being basically the same except for the members.

> Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
>
> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares
>
> We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
>
> For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
>
> On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
>
> For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
>
> My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
XPac




Does it really matter if one team is more powerful than the other? It's not like they are designed to fight each other.

Sure that might happen, but the point is they're suppossed to be heroes fighting badguys. How they stack up against each other really shouldn't be that important a consideration.

And for the record, Strange possibly tips the scales in th New Avengers way single handedly. He may not be as powerful as Sentry head to head, but it's possible he can zap Sentry away the same way Photon did in New Avengers. Take Sentry away, and Strange could probably handle both teams simotaneously.

If Strange is on your team, then your team is powerful enough. Give him a bit of time to prepare and there's almost nothing he can't handle.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on Windows XP
Super Rubbery Bung




> Does it really matter if one team is more powerful than the other? It's not like they are designed to fight each other.
>
> Sure that might happen, but the point is they're suppossed to be heroes fighting badguys. How they stack up against each other really shouldn't be that important a consideration.
>
> And for the record, Strange possibly tips the scales in th New Avengers way single handedly. He may not be as powerful as Sentry head to head, but it's possible he can zap Sentry away the same way Photon did in New Avengers. Take Sentry away, and Strange could probably handle both teams simotaneously.
>
> If Strange is on your team, then your team is powerful enough. Give him a bit of time to prepare and there's almost nothing he can't handle.
>
Strange is virtually a one-man army like the Black Panther or Cap, but with mystical powers and artifacts at his side. Iron Man's Avenger team is very strong physically and in the comic book sense but Strange's Avengers team can be more effective if used right.

If Dr Fate can join the JLA, it's only right that Dr Strange can join an Avengers team and be written as a noted team member who doesn't overpower the rest of the cast or alienate himself.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.0.7 on Windows XP
Obstreperous




so. why does there have to be a balance of power? I would prefer it made sense in terms on which side people take based on their character(which I think it does) than people just handed to each side to balance out power levels

> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares
>
> We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
>
> For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
>
> On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
>
> For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
>
> My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


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Goblin




The sides in Civil War are far from balanced too. The pro-registration side is packed with heavy-hitters -- Iron Man, She-Hulk, Doc Samson, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, the Thunderbolts. But the anti-registration side is largely street-level heroes. Their only heavy-hitter not part of the Fantastic Four is Hercules, and he's only involved because of Cap.

It only makes sense the two Avengers teams would fall into place in a similar way. Aside from Dr. Strange, the New Avengers don't have much in the way of available powerhouses to choose from. Hulk's... occupied and not exactly Avengers material(though like half the New Avengers are either). If there's no Cap, Hercules may feel no reason to involve himself. Thor's still MIA and his opinions still unknown. It's possible they could pull in Namor, but Strange may not be able to after the Illuminati falling out. It doesn't seem like most of the members are very well connected either, with the exception of Wolverine's connections to the X-Men.

It's like Iron Man has first draft picks for Mighty Avengers, and the New Avengers are left with what they can scrape together. The difference should make them interesting in their own ways.


Posted with Netscape Navigator 8.1.2 on Windows XP
Disel




> Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
>
> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares
>
> We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
>
> For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
>
> On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
>
> For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
>
> My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


Posted with Mozilla 1.7 on Windows XP
Maximum Man




They are not going to be like West Coast/East Coast Avengers. The two teams are going to have different priorities.

New Avengers is going to be about uncovering hidden threats, and battling evil masterminds that hide in the shadows manipulating events. Mighty Avengers is going to be about fighting giant monsters, alien invasions, and super-powerful villains.

The tone of the books are going to be very different in style.

Slibe.com - Free Image Picture Photo Hosting Service


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on MacOS X
George





>
> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (I believ its Cap)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares
>
> We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
>
> For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
>
> On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
>
> For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
>
> My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?

For Fun, let's match them up with the Mighty shall we? This would be the way I see it....

Iron Man vs. Ronin (Cap)
Ms. Marvel vs. Spiderwoman
Wonderman vs. Luke Cage
Ares vs. Wolverine
Sentry vs. Doc Strange
Black Widow vs. Echo
Wasp vs. Black Spiderman
and Iron Fist can provide knockout punches for all the Mighty.
I think they are pretty balanced.
What do you guys think?

George


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




>Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce?

There were a lot of others there including Strange who has done this TWICE now.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Marshall Bravestar




> Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
>
> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares
>
> We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
>
> For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
>
> On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
>
> For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
>
> My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?

Marvel's two iconic powerhouses have been missing for months...

Thor and the Hulk. And both have awesome reasons to be upset at their fellow heroes - planetary exile and cloning. Likely that animosity will be directed to the Pro-Reg side when they return.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Kenny_Blankenchip




Well if the tone fo the books is meant to be different in that respect then I can definetly understand the choses for each team. Even Strange could be used in a covert way to transport the team behind enemy lines and to deal with any shady supernatural cults that may be hidden in the shadows.

If they are going to this route I just wish they would have a different writer for each title, maybe a Brubaker type for New Avengers.

Thanks for the info and excellent video signature!


> They are not going to be like West Coast/East Coast Avengers. The two teams are going to have different priorities.
>
> New Avengers is going to be about uncovering hidden threats, and battling evil masterminds that hide in the shadows manipulating events. Mighty Avengers is going to be about fighting giant monsters, alien invasions, and super-powerful villains.
>
> The tone of the books are going to be very different in style.
>
> Slibe.com - Free Image Picture Photo Hosting Service


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Kenny_Blankenchp





> Thor and the Hulk. And both have awesome reasons to be upset at their fellow heroes - planetary exile and cloning. Likely that animosity will be directed to the Pro-Reg side when they return.
>
> Planet Hulk has been an AMAZING story for anyone not picking it up, but I am starting to miss the Hulk and Banner interacting with the rest of the earth based heroes, especially the Avengers...

and Thor, has been away for WAY too long. As one of Marvel's premier heroes, he should be back by now in more than clone fashion, which for me personally, was one of the low points of Civil War, which I have liked overall.

These two would be an excellent addition to any team of Avengers. What I dont understand is that in their absence their two "replacements" on Earth, She- Hulk and Beta Ray Bill arent on an Avengers team. I know BRB is on Omega Flight, whcih look interesting, but the "man" is a powerhouse with few equals and shoudl be showcased.


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spiderprince




> and Thor, has been away for WAY too long. As one of Marvel's premier heroes, he should be back by now in more than clone fashion, which for me personally, was one of the low points of Civil War, which I have liked overall.
>
> These two would be an excellent addition to any team of Avengers. What I dont understand is that in their absence their two "replacements" on Earth, She- Hulk and Beta Ray Bill arent on an Avengers team. I know BRB is on Omega Flight, whcih look interesting, but the "man" is a powerhouse with few equals and shoudl be showcased.

Honestly I wouldn't want to see Thor on any Avengers teams when he returns. For his power level I would see him placed on the Mighty Avengers but for his loyalty to Cap I would see him placed on New Avengers. It's just too weird to have him on either of those teams at the moment. Let him return but get his own house in order first before meddling with the mortals


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
spiderprince




> Well if the tone fo the books is meant to be different in that respect then I can definetly understand the choses for each team. Even Strange could be used in a covert way to transport the team behind enemy lines and to deal with any shady supernatural cults that may be hidden in the shadows.
>
> If they are going to this route I just wish they would have a different writer for each title, maybe a Brubaker type for New Avengers.
>
> Thanks for the info and excellent video signature!

Well Brubaker admittedly is stretched a little thin now. Besides, if anything I think that this type of writing is Bendis' strong point


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Sick Nick




Yes, I've always thought that Nova would make a ideal Avenger but judging by Tom Brevoort's comments in Wizard Magazine, its something that not going to happen any time soon, even if in the eyes of most fans, its the perfect time for him to join up.

Now who says that Marvel never listen to their fans.:-p



> > Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
> >
> > > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > > 1. Echo
> > > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > > 4. Wolverine
> > > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > > 6.Luke Cage
> > 7.Spider-Man
> > 8. Iron Fist
> > > >
> > and
> >
> > > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > > 1. Iron Man
> > > > 2. Wasp
> > > > 3. Black Widow
> > > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > > 6. Sentry
> > > > 7. Ares
> >
> > We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
> >
> > For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
> >
> > On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
> >
> > For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
> >
> > My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


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Beardguy




> Honestly I wouldn't want to see Thor on any Avengers teams when he returns. For his power level I would see him placed on the Mighty Avengers but for his loyalty to Cap I would see him placed on New Avengers. It's just too weird to have him on either of those teams at the moment. Let him return but get his own house in order first before meddling with the mortals

I don't think he'd ever join mighty, simply because Tony created a copy of him which murdered an honorable man, and besmirched his name with murder.

When Thor finally does come back, i'm sure he'll be on a team pretty soon simply because he's Thor (well, maybe not if Bendis is still writing). But i don't think his return has been solicited yet (for real, none of this crap we nsaw in FF), and so he can't join a team until he's actually back.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on Windows XP
spiderprince




> I don't think he'd ever join mighty, simply because Tony created a copy of him which murdered an honorable man, and besmirched his name with murder.
>
> When Thor finally does come back, i'm sure he'll be on a team pretty soon simply because he's Thor (well, maybe not if Bendis is still writing). But i don't think his return has been solicited yet (for real, none of this crap we nsaw in FF), and so he can't join a team until he's actually back.

Oh, lol, I forgot about the whole Clor thing. Well Thor is slated to return soon for his new series by JMS. IIRC JMS has said that THor will be pretty busy dealing with "New" Asgard. I took that as an indicator he may not be too interested in any teams right when he returns


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 98
xavyre




> Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
>
> > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Echo
> > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > 4. Wolverine
> > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > 6.Luke Cage
> 7.Spider-Man
> 8. Iron Fist
> > >
> and
>
> > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > 1. Iron Man
> > > 2. Wasp
> > > 3. Black Widow
> > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > 6. Sentry
> > > 7. Ares


Obviously Ronin will turn out to be Red Ronin the giant robot and that will slightly even things up......heh


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
ajthomas




Yes, I too was hoping to see Nova finally get his shot at being an Avenger. Glad to see he is at least kicking butt in Annihilation , and the previews for his new solo book looked pretty good. Wouldn't mind seeing him run around the Galaxy for awhile crossing paths with some of those he is co-starring with in Annihilation.

> Yes, I've always thought that Nova would make a ideal Avenger but judging by Tom Brevoort's comments in Wizard Magazine, its something that not going to happen any time soon, even if in the eyes of most fans, its the perfect time for him to join up.
>
> Now who says that Marvel never listen to their fans.:-p
>
>
>
> > > Ok so we know that the new lineups are:
> > >
> > > > > New Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > > > 1. Echo
> > > > > 2. Ronin (either Cap or Clint)
> > > > > 3. Doctor Strange
> > > > > 4. Wolverine
> > > > > 5. Spider-Woman
> > > > > 6.Luke Cage
> > > 7.Spider-Man
> > > 8. Iron Fist
> > > > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > > > Mighty Avengers (all confirmed):
> > > > > 1. Iron Man
> > > > > 2. Wasp
> > > > > 3. Black Widow
> > > > > 4. Wonder Man
> > > > > 5. Ms. Marvel
> > > > > 6. Sentry
> > > > > 7. Ares
> > >
> > > We can surmise from the previews for the coming months that the Pro- Registration side "wins" so I understand there being a slight power imbalance but even if Ronin is Cap these teams are mismatched worse than the X- Men vs. Avengers!
> > >
> > > For the new Avengers you have 4 street level characters, one mid-range strongman, two minor powerhouses in SW and SP, and one heavy hitter in Strange. This team has little in the way of power variety and bruisers. Without Strange this team loses to most established teams powerwise!
> > >
> > > On the Mighty Avengers side you have-
> > >
> > > For the other team, you have one street level, a shrinking woman, Ms. Marvel, who is basically WW for Marvel plus some EP, IM for excellent ranged attacks and strength, a powerhouse wargod AND the Sentry. Not to mention Simon who isnt too shabby, stronger and more durable than Cage, the one real strength character on the other team.
> > >
> > > My question is why stack the deck so far in one direction? Why not Hercules or Thor with Caps team? That would add some serious power to the lineup or even the new and improved returning Hulk or his pissed off cousin once she finds out what Tony did to Bruce? Im just curious how two teams, who will from the previews, still be at odds after Civil War, even interact or have the obligatory comic fight when there is no doubt to the outcome?


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yoyoyo




yes he can


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP

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