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loki4ever





iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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Sick Nick




>
> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902

You sure this is the new Avengers team and not a new Heroes for Hire group?


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El Capitan




>
> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902



Ya, Pretty much everyone has known the line-up for a while. The last one is Spider-Man.
What I am suprised about though, is Luke Cage being the leader. I was a little shocked at first, but after thinking about it, it sounds like it will be pretty cool. I wonder if his "bad ass-ness" will rub off on the rest of the team?


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CaptKlondike




>
> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902

Hawkeye..

why?
the setup with new member Dr. Strange in the "ballad" issue..
the "big shoes"quote as he's gonna fill in being the only "Classic" Avenger on this team...
Bendis owes the character (big time)...
In the House of M Universe he was already a member of a Cage led team...

I really, REALLY want to see Clint Avenging again, and I don't see him fitting over with the Mighty Team, but this underdog heavy, do good because its the right thing to do roster seems to fit him like a T. Especially if Cap IS the one who dies...





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Roga_The_First




I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).

Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)


>
> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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Squish!




I mean...this team seems to consist of all his favorite characters (save Sentry) or the characters he seems most interested in writing about as opposed to chronicling the Avengers:

Wolverine
Spider Woman
Power Man
Dr. Strange
Echo
Ronin (his own creation)
Jessica Jones-Cageas supporting character
and now Iron Fist

When I think about who Bendis focused on the past couple of years (in Avengers, New Avengers, HOM, Illuminati, Secret War, Ultimate X-Men-which was really a Wolverine book) I get the feeling these are really the folks he wanted to write about...and The Avengers book just became the means or vehicle to make that happen.

He still gets to write his other three favortites - Iron Man (whom he does write exceptionally well!), Ms. Marvel and Sentry (who for some reason he thinks is the greatest thing since whipped cream???)in what is shaping up to be or looks to be the Avengers proper (debatable I know).

But dang...as someone who loved Secret War and Illuminati but has not enjoyed Disassembled, HOM, New Avengers or Civil War I just wish he wrote this team as a New Defenders at the outset. I mean, that what New Avnegrs really was IMO.

No matter the roster change, and some were radical, The consistent tradtional Avengers team was always a formal Super Hero organization with a formal headquaters, constitution, charter, by-laws, protcols, procedures, with varying degrees of a quasi-legal relationships to governmental bodies and/or law enforcemetn agencies. New Avngers lost that. By contrast the Defenders team/book was a loosely structured informal assosiation of heroes who sometimes formally, sometimes informally met at either Dr. Strange's house or Kyle Richmond's. Thats what the New Avengers became, only instead of Strange's house they hung out at Tony Stark's. It always had the feel of a Defenders team/book to me. And the NEW New Avengers seems to be even more in that vein.

Just my thoughts and ramblings...







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XPac




> I mean...this team seems to consist of all his favorite characters (save Sentry) or the characters he seems most interested in writing about as opposed to chronicling the Avengers:
>
> Wolverine
> Spider Woman
> Power Man
> Dr. Strange
> Echo
> Ronin (his own creation)
> Jessica Jones-Cageas supporting character
> and now Iron Fist
>
> When I think about who Bendis focused on the past couple of years (in Avengers, New Avengers, HOM, Illuminati, Secret War, Ultimate X-Men-which was really a Wolverine book) I get the feeling these are really the folks he wanted to write about...and The Avengers book just became the means or vehicle to make that happen.
>
> He still gets to write his other three favortites - Iron Man (whom he does write exceptionally well!), Ms. Marvel and Sentry (who for some reason he thinks is the greatest thing since whipped cream???)in what is shaping up to be or looks to be the Avengers proper (debatable I know).
>
> But dang...as someone who loved Secret War and Illuminati but has not enjoyed Disassembled, HOM, New Avengers or Civil War I just wish he wrote this team as a New Defenders at the outset. I mean, that what New Avnegrs really was IMO.
>
> No matter the roster change, and some were radical, The consistent tradtional Avengers team was always a formal Super Hero organization with a formal headquaters, constitution, charter, by-laws, protcols, procedures, with varying degrees of a quasi-legal relationships to governmental bodies and/or law enforcemetn agencies. New Avngers lost that. By contrast the Defenders team/book was a loosely structured informal assosiation of heroes who sometimes formally, sometimes informally met at either Dr. Strange's house or Kyle Richmond's. Thats what the New Avengers became, only instead of Strange's house they hung out at Tony Stark's. It always had the feel of a Defenders team/book to me. And the NEW New Avengers seems to be even more in that vein.
>
> Just my thoughts and ramblings...
>
>

Storytelling often requires shaking up the status quo every once in a while. It's the narrative equivalanet of needing to break a few eggs to make an omlettel

I think the Avengers needed to be Disassembled and lose they very things which made them the Avengers (really the most "profectional" and sanctioned team in the MU) in order to move the entire MU in the direction it's going now, where the lawless days of the vigilante could be coming to an end.

And you can't do that with the Defenders.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on Windows XP
CLANCY




> >
> > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902
>
> Hawkeye..
>
> why?
> the setup with new member Dr. Strange in the "ballad" issue..
> the "big shoes"quote as he's gonna fill in being the only "Classic" Avenger on this team...
> Bendis owes the character (big time)...
> In the House of M Universe he was already a member of a Cage led team...
>


> I really, REALLY want to see Clint Avenging again, and I don't see him fitting over with the Mighty Team, but this underdog heavy, do good because its the right thing to do roster seems to fit him like a T. Especially if Cap IS the one who dies...
>
>
> Bendis mentioned he was going to use Hawkeye and Wanda in the Avengers. Also going by the alternate covers to the Avengers #27 Spider Man will be the eight member. I think if Ronin is indeed Cap then publicly Cage will look as the leader, but actuall it will be Cap. Maybe after the first story arc there will be additons. It took 13 issues to get the eight members we were told about in the begining. I think by years end we will see Hawkeye, The Hood and maybe Daredevil join. Everyone else that Bendis has ever writen has joined the team.


CLANCY


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KJLH




> I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
>
> Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
>



Would Doc take orders from Cap in your opinion? And if so, why not Cage?




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Vision Williams




Knowing Bendis this should be a non-issue. I really doubt Cage will be barking out orders like a drill sarge at the other team members. More likely he will kind of rise as the spiritual leader or most clearly determined member regarding their new agenda. In terms of Strange following Cage's lead (likely not orders, probably plans) I can think of many situations in which that might be appropriate with Luke being a man of the people and Strange being a bit of a recluse and often lost in mystic concerns. The inverse is also true and I doubt we will find cage tellin Strange how to handle magical matters. What IS very interesting to me beyond hierarchy or powers=leader crap is..........how will Iron Fist's magic clash with Strange's .......something Bendis mentions in today's article.

ZEEEE-Chief








> I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
>
> Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
>
>
> >
> > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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Bobster







> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902

"They keep inventing new ways to celebrate mediocrity."

- Mr. Incredible



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Squish!




> Storytelling often requires shaking up the status quo every once in a while. It's the narrative equivalanet of needing to break a few eggs to make an omlettel
>
Agreed. Shaking up the staus quo...not necessarily the core concept. Avengers #16 changed the status quo but not the concept. Heroes Reborn radicaly changed the status quo but the core concept wasn't revised (not that it was successful). Hydro base and Avengers West Coast changed the staus quo in interesting ways yet the core concept was consistent. When Busiek expanded on the concept with a more global operation it changed the Avngers' staus quo. In much the same way The Avengers: The Initiative looks similar and I applaud all those efforts, whether executed sucessfully or not. The FF, The X-Men, Spiderman, Captain America, the JLA, The Legion, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc all have had egg breaking radical changes in stauys quo but remianed true to the essence and concept which made them what they were.

I don't think New Avengers was sucessfull on a number of fronts (certainly a finacial sucess though!)because it changed the status quo in a manner which did not remain consistent with the orginal concept as maintained throughout all the teams's incarnations. Start a new book if it's that different is what I'm saying. And if Marvel or Bendis or whomever wanted to capitalize on a brand name, well Defenders could have worked just as well.

The Defenders concept allows folks to be on multiple teams so it could have worked very nicely to use not only Wolverine but Cap and Iron Man as well.

> I think the Avengers needed to be Disassembled and lose they very things which made them the Avengers (really the most "profectional" and sanctioned team in the MU) in order to move the entire MU in the direction it's going now, where the lawless days of the vigilante could be coming to an end.
>
> And you can't do that with the Defenders.

Difference of opinion. I absolutely do not think the Avengers had to "lose they very things which made them the Avengers". Why? Then they are not the Avengers...

A radically transformed Avengers was not necessary for Civil War, the end of unregistered lawless vigilantism, or the new direction MU is heading in. The same end could have been achieved in as interesting a fashion with an internally conflicted Avengers Team or an Avengers team at odds with a Bendis written super team (Defenders)consisting of his current cast. In fact, that's what we've ended up with anyway with Mighty and New New. >


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 98
XPac




> >
>
> I don't think New Avengers was sucessfull on a number of fronts (certainly a finacial sucess though!)because it changed the status quo in a manner which did not remain consistent with the orginal concept as maintained throughout all the teams's incarnations. Start a new book if it's that different is what I'm saying. And if Marvel or Bendis or whomever wanted to capitalize on a brand name, well Defenders could have worked just as well.
>

Well, obviously you have a much higher opinion of the Defenders brand name than I do.

And yes, it did change the status quo. Hence the name "NEW" Avengers. The old team was disassembed, and what we created in NEW Avengers was something NEW. That was kind of the point. And they're probably going back to the older concept in Mighty anyways, so I don't see the big deal.


> >
> > And you can't do that with the Defenders.
>

Nope. Because the Defenders were already outcasts and vigilantes by nature. That made them poor vehicles for showing the deterioration of the relationship between the hero community and government. The Avengers are at the other end of the spectrum. They symbolize what it means to be heroes... when the government and them are at odds, it actually means something.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.9 on Windows XP
Squish!




> > >
> >
> > I don't think New Avengers was sucessfull on a number of fronts (certainly a finacial sucess though!)because it changed the status quo in a manner which did not remain consistent with the orginal concept as maintained throughout all the teams's incarnations. Start a new book if it's that different is what I'm saying. And if Marvel or Bendis or whomever wanted to capitalize on a brand name, well Defenders could have worked just as well.
> >
>
> Well, obviously you have a much higher opinion of the Defenders brand name than I do.
>
> And yes, it did change the status quo. Hence the name "NEW" Avengers. The old team was disassembed, and what we created in NEW Avengers was something NEW. That was kind of the point. And they're probably going back to the older concept in Mighty anyways, so I don't see the big deal.
>
Did you mean to say "it did change the CONCEPT." because I know the SQ changed...And if you are saying NEW Avengers changed the concept and that was the point then yeah, we are in agreement. I know that was the point. MY point is one which you support by stating "...they're probably going back to the older concept in Mighty anyways". Meaning: Marvel has come to the conclusion that the older concept is valuable, interesting, viable, potentially a money maker,etc. In short there is a need for the older concept. And clearly many people enjoy this NEW concept hence the need for TWO teams which is what I said in the first place. I stand by my opinion that NEW Avengers was so new and different they shoudl not have used the name Avengers in the first place.
> > >
> > > And you can't do that with the Defenders.
> >
>
> Nope. Because the Defenders were already outcasts and vigilantes by nature. That made them poor vehicles for showing the deterioration of the relationship between the hero community and government. The Avengers are at the other end of the spectrum. They symbolize what it means to be heroes... when the government and them are at odds, it actually means something.
>

Sorry, that's not persuasive. The old classic team Avengers, not the NEW Avengers team would support your contention more aptly I think. Also the NEW Avengers was not at odds with the government....only some of them. The team was at odds with itself which could have been portrayed just as effectively with the traditional version. The FF being at odds with the government means something. Remember, Registration and Civil War destroyed the NEW Avengers team.

Actualy, Registration and Civil War is a much more logical, interesting and feasible reason for the Avengers to have been disassembled than an insane psychotic murderous Scarlet Witch.

Bottom line for me: I wish we could have been spared all of Disassembled, HOM, 20-something issues of an a poorly exectuted (IMO) New Avengers book and just had these two teams in the first place.

Because that's what we ended up with right?



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dave




> I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
>

What are you calling street level? I think of Daredevil and Moon Knight. I certainly wouldn't call Spiderman, who presses about 20 tons and is faster than about anybody, a street leveller. Nor would I say Cage, who is several times stronger than Spidey, that either. Just because they fight crime AND super crime does not mean they can't hang with the big boys. Spiderman was squaring off against Dr. Doom before most of these heroes ever suited up.


Echo and Ronin (whether DD or Cap) I would argue are both streets, but Cap and Hawkeye have always been members and it hasn't been a problem.

> Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
>

I would love seeing a Defenders team that is steeped in mysticism. Mystical characters working together, such as Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, and Blade. That'd be awesome. Doc could be the leader. Him or Daredevil.

>
> >
> > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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AndrewMTC




>
> iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902

Check it out: Shu and I teamed up!



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Golem




Just a note about Cage: afaik his strength is nowhere near Spidey's! I think he belongs to 1 ton class. Several times stronger than Spidey puts him nearly 100 class which is just incorrect. Durability as in skin hardness tho is another matter, Cage does have great durability.

> > I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
> >
>
> What are you calling street level? I think of Daredevil and Moon Knight. I certainly wouldn't call Spiderman, who presses about 20 tons and is faster than about anybody, a street leveller. Nor would I say Cage, who is several times stronger than Spidey, that either. Just because they fight crime AND super crime does not mean they can't hang with the big boys. Spiderman was squaring off against Dr. Doom before most of these heroes ever suited up.
>
>
> Echo and Ronin (whether DD or Cap) I would argue are both streets, but Cap and Hawkeye have always been members and it hasn't been a problem.
>
> > Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
> >
>
> I would love seeing a Defenders team that is steeped in mysticism. Mystical characters working together, such as Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, and Blade. That'd be awesome. Doc could be the leader. Him or Daredevil.
>
> >
> > >
> > > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


Posted with Opera 9.10 on Windows XP
spiderprince




> Did you mean to say "it did change the CONCEPT." because I know the SQ changed...And if you are saying NEW Avengers changed the concept and that was the point then yeah, we are in agreement. I know that was the point. MY point is one which you support by stating "...they're probably going back to the older concept in Mighty anyways". Meaning: Marvel has come to the conclusion that the older concept is valuable, interesting, viable, potentially a money maker,etc. In short there is a need for the older concept. And clearly many people enjoy this NEW concept hence the need for TWO teams which is what I said in the first place. I stand by my opinion that NEW Avengers was so new and different they shoudl not have used the name Avengers in the first place.

If New Avengers was such a financial success then why would Marvel feel the need to go back to the core concept of the Avengers. Imo, they're not going to revert back to that anyway. Seems to me that in the wake of Civil War and with the new roles of superhumans in society that it would have been impossible to carry on the New Avengers as they were. I'd say the need for two teams was story driven as opposed to them realizing that the old concept was so desperately needed (a conclusion I don't think they ever even came to with the numbers NA was bringing in).

> Sorry, that's not persuasive. The old classic team Avengers, not the NEW Avengers team would support your contention more aptly I think. Also the NEW Avengers was not at odds with the government....only some of them. The team was at odds with itself which could have been portrayed just as effectively with the traditional version. The FF being at odds with the government means something. Remember, Registration and Civil War destroyed the NEW Avengers team.

No, the whole team was at odds with the government. Remember the T-bolts issues where the government deemed them too much of a threat and hired the Thunderbolts to teach them a lesson? Not to mention that the team had basically arrived at the decision that they couldn't trust anyone in SHIELD, what with SHIELD going wild in the Savage Land and mind-raping Spider-Man. Doesn't sound like the NA was buddy buddy with the government from my perspective.

> Bottom line for me: I wish we could have been spared all of Disassembled, HOM, 20-something issues of an a poorly exectuted (IMO) New Avengers book and just had these two teams in the first place.
>
> Because that's what we ended up with right?

Two teams arose from the Civil War. Would have been fairly ridiculous to have one team after CW. I think anyone expecting the MA to be the "nostalgia" team are going to be dissapointed. Obviously it'll have a more classic high flying superhero style but I very highly doubt its going to be a rehash of Avengers pre-Dissassembled.


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spiderprince




> Just a note about Cage: afaik his strength is nowhere near Spidey's! I think he belongs to 1 ton class. Several times stronger than Spidey puts him nearly 100 class which is just incorrect. Durability as in skin hardness tho is another matter, Cage does have great durability.

Cage has been upgraded. I believe he went through the same process that originally gave him his powers again. He's probably somewhere between 30-50 tons now.


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Ohotmu the all-knowing




The cover of that issue is red with a bunch of mug shots of various "unlikely" heroes and the text "Who will be the newest members of the Avengers, Earth's mightiest heroes?!?"

Mug shots are
Row1 = Cage, Spidey, Wolverine, Dazzler, Hawkeye
Row2 = Rom the Spaceknight, Invisible Woman, Daredevil, Antman, Hulk
Row3 = Doc Strange, She-Hulk, Black Bolt, Spider Woman (Jess), Silver Surfer

In that issue, it was Hawkeye and She-Hulk who became members. But since Bendis took the reins:
- Cage, Spidey, Wolvie, Doc Strange, and Spider Woman have become members
- between Iron Fist, Echo, and Ronin, it's as if Daredevil has become a member
- Antman and Invisible Woman became members before Bendis could wedge them in
- Bendis killed off Antman


Future plot lines:
- the Human/Inhuman war comes to an end as Black Bolt becomes a member
- as a symbolic gesture of protest against those that banished him, the Hulk returns to Earth and joins the team that opposed those bastages that sent him to space
- the Silver Surfer inexplicably welds Rom back into his spaceknight armor and forces him to be the intergalactic representative on the Avengers

Just an observation

Ohotmu


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redhulk the strangely subdued due to cheating GF




> > I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
> >
> > Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
> >
>
>
>
> Would Doc take orders from Cap in your opinion? And if so, why not Cage?
I think you are angling that this is somehow a racist or classist statement but Nope i can't see it either. Cage has a cool 'shaft' factor and street 'smarts' but i don't think this is in anyway comparable to Cap.

Cap is a leader, cage is sort of a spirit raiser, you follow him into battle but you much prefer someone to know what the hell you are doing there in the first place.

I wouldn't want cage ordering me, prefer Cap, if you think it is somehow due to cage's background i would also say Blackpanther, and Storm, are way ahead as leaders compared to cage.
The classic leaders such as Cyclops, Prof X, ironman, Ms Marvel, would all do a FAR better job.
Heck lets go left field and suggest Ironfist, daredevil, baron Zemo..
Cage really does hope his durablity gets him out of scraps, not really what you want as a leader no matter how cool he has got.

ALL those people i think of before i get to cage....Hell, punisher, Wasp, She hulk, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Sue Storm, Thor, Doom, Jean grey, Emma frost, are all WAY ahead of luke cage who really does only see the smaller picture (the streets) which is great but you need someone who looks out for everyone and everything not his own self centered issues, it would be too much about his streets or his kid. A bit of the same failings as the Thing or Spiderman. Can't be leaders as they really see things from a very 'family' unit.
The others have a coldness cage doesn't have and is what STRANGE has, this guy could let thousands die while fasting as he see's the big picture. Cage would kill the world to save his son. While admirable and most of us would agree with him and follow that, You can scariliy imagine strange and cap sacrificing one for the many.

sure give me cage in a fight with not to difficult opponents, otherwise please get me the real deal the the Hulk, who i would also think has better tactical knowledge than cagey, and would smear the floor with him.

Redhulk the pessimist not too many digs please \:P

>
>


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spiderprince




> I think you are angling that this is somehow a racist or classist statement but Nope i can't see it either. Cage has a cool 'shaft' factor and street 'smarts' but i don't think this is in anyway comparable to Cap.
>
> Cap is a leader, cage is sort of a spirit raiser, you follow him into battle but you much prefer someone to know what the hell you are doing there in the first place.
>
> I wouldn't want cage ordering me, prefer Cap, if you think it is somehow due to cage's background i would also say Blackpanther, and Storm, are way ahead as leaders compared to cage.
> The classic leaders such as Cyclops, Prof X, ironman, Ms Marvel, would all do a FAR better job.
> Heck lets go left field and suggest Ironfist, daredevil, baron Zemo..
> Cage really does hope his durablity gets him out of scraps, not really what you want as a leader no matter how cool he has got.
>
> ALL those people i think of before i get to cage....Hell, punisher, Wasp, She hulk, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Sue Storm, Thor, Doom, Jean grey, Emma frost, are all WAY ahead of luke cage who really does only see the smaller picture (the streets) which is great but you need someone who looks out for everyone and everything not his own self centered issues, it would be too much about his streets or his kid. A bit of the same failings as the Thing or Spiderman. Can't be leaders as they really see things from a very 'family' unit.
> The others have a coldness cage doesn't have and is what STRANGE has, this guy could let thousands die while fasting as he see's the big picture. Cage would kill the world to save his son. While admirable and most of us would agree with him and follow that, You can scariliy imagine strange and cap sacrificing one for the many.
>
> sure give me cage in a fight with not to difficult opponents, otherwise please get me the real deal the the Hulk, who i would also think has better tactical knowledge than cagey, and would smear the floor with him.

Wow, really shorthanding Cage here aren't you? I won't even go into the tactics thing cause I don't think anyone here will even argue that Cage is better at it than Cap, but Cage does know what he's doing. He's shown himself to be versatile in a way that allows him to hang with opponents who outclass him. Cage is a spirit raiser, but so is Cap. In a way thats even more effective than someone who know's what to do. I mean, what good is knowing all the moves if you no one who's willing to follow you? Again, I think the reason Cage is leader now is because he can see things from a different perspective (you say smaller scall, I say from the everyman perspective). I think his different perspective will be useful for the type of team the New Avengers is shaping up to be (I wouldn't place him as a leader of say the Mighty Avengers or Fantastic Four).

Also Cap would never sacrifice one life (unless it was his own) even if it came down to saving many more. Cap is very ideological and many respects so is Cage. Stange will do it without breaking a sweat but not Cap. Probably this is one of the key similarities I see between Cap and Cage that make me think he's very well suited to lead THIS team of Avengers


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 2000
XPac




> > > >

> >
> Did you mean to say "it did change the CONCEPT." because I know the SQ changed...And if you are saying NEW Avengers changed the concept and that was the point then yeah, we are in agreement. I know that was the point. MY point is one which you support by stating "...they're probably going back to the older concept in Mighty anyways". Meaning: Marvel has come to the conclusion that the older concept is valuable, interesting, viable, potentially a money maker,etc. In short there is a need for the older concept. And clearly many people enjoy this NEW concept hence the need for TWO teams which is what I said in the first place. I stand by my opinion that NEW Avengers was so new and different they shoudl not have used the name Avengers in the first place.
> > > >

I never thought Marvel or Bendis believed the older concept wasn't valuable or interesting or viable. They changed it to get a desired effect... that being the enviroment of Civil War. That effect achieved, they brought it back.

This was all story driven. The Avengers not being what they were created a void and that void was mentioned many times in many places. That created a deterioration between the hero community and government, and the Mighty Avengers will to get that back.


>
> Sorry, that's not persuasive. The old classic team Avengers, not the NEW Avengers team would support your contention more aptly I think. Also the NEW Avengers was not at odds with the government....only some of them. The team was at odds with itself which could have been portrayed just as effectively with the traditional version. The FF being at odds with the government means something. Remember, Registration and Civil War destroyed the NEW Avengers team.
>

The team itself is at odds with SHIELD because they came together in the first place without SHIELDs permission. Various government agencies including SHIELD and the CSA weren't happy about that. The incident in the Savage Land didn't exactly help matters either on both sides.

> Actualy, Registration and Civil War is a much more logical, interesting and feasible reason for the Avengers to have been disassembled than an insane psychotic murderous Scarlet Witch.
>

That certainly would have been a feasible way to disassemble the Avengers. But the thing about Civil War is that a lot of things needed to happen to lead to that. Disassembled led to New Avengers and Secret War which led to House of Men and Decimation which led to Civil War. It was a series of events which organically grew into each other which led to Civil War.


> Bottom line for me: I wish we could have been spared all of Disassembled, HOM, 20-something issues of an a poorly exectuted (IMO) New Avengers book and just had these two teams in the first place.
>
> Because that's what we ended up with right?
>

All the Disassembled, House of M and NA stuff led to the Avengers becoming the most popular on-going series in Marvel and narratively being the core of the entire marvel universe. Had Bendis not done what he did, the Avengers probably wouldn't have justidied a second book sales wise.

Now we have Mighty Avengers and New Avengers not to mention Marvel Adventures Avengers and even Avengers Next plus Ultimates. The process Bendis used to get the Avengers put them ahead of the XBooks as being Marvels crown jewel superteam (something in my mind they should have been from day one).


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Maximum Man




Just a note about Cage: afaik his strength is nowhere near Spidey's! I think he belongs to 1 ton class. Several times stronger than Spidey puts him nearly 100 class which is just incorrect. Durability as in skin hardness tho is another matter, Cage does have great durability.

You haven't kept up with Cage's history. He got a power-up back in his solo series in the 90's. He's around class 30 strength now, and his skin is stronger than steel.

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Roga_The_First




> > I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
> >
>
> What are you calling street level? I think of Daredevil and Moon Knight. I certainly wouldn't call Spiderman, who presses about 20 tons and is faster than about anybody, a street leveller. Nor would I say Cage, who is several times stronger than Spidey, that either. Just because they fight crime AND super crime does not mean they can't hang with the big boys. Spiderman was squaring off against Dr. Doom before most of these heroes ever suited up.
>
>

well, so far Spiderman hasn't being announced (yes, I know he WILL be anounced and I know he will be part of the team), but still he and Strange are so far the exception, this new incarnation of the New Avengers is a street level power team.

And by the way, Luke Cage is not "several" times stronger than Spiderman (Luke is in the 25 tons range).

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Cage%2C_Luke

Cage is not even in the league of the "Strong Guys" class (between 80 and 100 tons), characters like Wonderman, Shehulk, the Thing, Atlas, Colossus and Namor should be able to KO him with a single good placed punch.

As a matter of fact the character isn´t powerful enought to impress anyone in the strongs department, it's his personality and the fact that he is a favorite of the most popular writer in marvel what puts him in the spotlight today.

> Echo and Ronin (whether DD or Cap) I would argue are both streets, but Cap and Hawkeye have always been members and it hasn't been a problem.
>

Cap and Hawkeye are leaders and the best of the best in their areas, the point of the Avengers taking in their ranks street level characters is not what I'm talkig about, is the fact that the team is composed in the majority with street levels.

When Cap was in the battlefield leading the Avengers, he had his back covered by Thor and Ironman, Cage is going to be covered by... Iron Fist and Echo... oh and Wolverine *rhe* .

> > Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
> >
>
> I would love seeing a Defenders team that is steeped in mysticism. Mystical characters working together, such as Ghost Rider, Moon Knight, and Blade. That'd be awesome. Doc could be the leader. Him or Daredevil.
>
> >
> > >
> > > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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XPac




Without Strange, I don't think there can be a New Avengers.

If this team doesn't have Tony then it doesn't have the Quinjets and hi-tech HQ and gazillion dollar equipment. Strange can compensate for that.

As for the leadership issue... I think you're selling Strange short.

Out if respect, he'll give Cage a chance. If he sees that Cage does a good job (and I think he will), he'll go along with Cage. If Cage sucks then obviously changes will need to be made.

Wasp turned out to be probably the second greatest Avengers field leader behind Cap, but they didn't give a chance to be chairperson for decades. Cage has no real experience, but he may turn out to be a great leader who just hasn't been given an opportunity to show it like Wasp.


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Unstable Molecule




Strange is the most powerful by far. If the Sentry is any example, Bendis will barely use him as an Avenger. Perhaps he'll bring him out to clean up various plot danglers with a wave of his hand, but despite his inclusion, I highly doubt the Doc will be too active on this team. Like you, I can't see Cage ordering Dr. Strange into battle after battle.

> I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
>
> Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
>
>
> >
> > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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Beasty Mark




> I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).

It's not that hard for some writers. Just write the heroes out of character. Been done a lot lately, IMO.


>
> Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
>
>
> >
> > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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Roga_The_First




> > I think it´s a new era for the Avengers, with only street level characters in their ranks, except for Dr. Strange who is just too much power for a team like that; I´m willing to give this series a shot, I just don´t see Stephen Strange following orders from Cage, that would be weird (IMO).
>
> It's not that hard for some writers. Just write the heroes out of character. Been done a lot lately, IMO.
>
Totally agreed with that... Civil-War-Ironman??? anyone??? *rhe*

>
> >
> > Hopefully Strange would just get bored and will try to reform the original Defenders \:\-D (you can only hope...!)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > iron fist and luke cage are in the team and luke is the leader of the new avengers.
> > > http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902


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KJLH




> > I think you are angling that this is somehow a racist or classist statement but Nope i can't see it either. Cage has a cool 'shaft' factor and street 'smarts' but i don't think this is in anyway comparable to Cap.
> >
> > Cap is a leader, cage is sort of a spirit raiser, you follow him into battle but you much prefer someone to know what the hell you are doing there in the first place.
> >
> > I wouldn't want cage ordering me, prefer Cap, if you think it is somehow due to cage's background i would also say Blackpanther, and Storm, are way ahead as leaders compared to cage.
> > The classic leaders such as Cyclops, Prof X, ironman, Ms Marvel, would all do a FAR better job.
> > Heck lets go left field and suggest Ironfist, daredevil, baron Zemo..
> > Cage really does hope his durablity gets him out of scraps, not really what you want as a leader no matter how cool he has got.
> >
> > ALL those people i think of before i get to cage....Hell, punisher, Wasp, She hulk, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Sue Storm, Thor, Doom, Jean grey, Emma frost, are all WAY ahead of luke cage who really does only see the smaller picture (the streets) which is great but you need someone who looks out for everyone and everything not his own self centered issues, it would be too much about his streets or his kid. A bit of the same failings as the Thing or Spiderman. Can't be leaders as they really see things from a very 'family' unit.
> > The others have a coldness cage doesn't have and is what STRANGE has, this guy could let thousands die while fasting as he see's the big picture. Cage would kill the world to save his son. While admirable and most of us would agree with him and follow that, You can scariliy imagine strange and cap sacrificing one for the many.
> >
> > sure give me cage in a fight with not to difficult opponents, otherwise please get me the real deal the the Hulk, who i would also think has better tactical knowledge than cagey, and would smear the floor with him.
>
> Wow, really shorthanding Cage here aren't you? I won't even go into the tactics thing cause I don't think anyone here will even argue that Cage is better at it than Cap, but Cage does know what he's doing. He's shown himself to be versatile in a way that allows him to hang with opponents who outclass him. Cage is a spirit raiser, but so is Cap. In a way thats even more effective than someone who know's what to do. I mean, what good is knowing all the moves if you no one who's willing to follow you? Again, I think the reason Cage is leader now is because he can see things from a different perspective (you say smaller scall, I say from the everyman perspective). I think his different perspective will be useful for the type of team the New Avengers is shaping up to be (I wouldn't place him as a leader of say the Mighty Avengers or Fantastic Four).
>
> Also Cap would never sacrifice one life (unless it was his own) even if it came down to saving many more. Cap is very ideological and many respects so is Cage. Stange will do it without breaking a sweat but not Cap. Probably this is one of the key similarities I see between Cap and Cage that make me think he's very well suited to lead THIS team of Avengers



Exactly where I was going. I love it when folks assume that when you're talking about a black man (or asking questions about his qualifications) you're angling for racism or worse. The Hulk a better leader than Cage? Come on. This is ridiculous. Cage is the perfect candidate to lead a team; I just wonder why the fact that the Hulk can mop the floor with the man somehow discredits his ability to lead. Can't the Hulk mop the floor with every single leader that was mentioned as more qualified than Cage. It's a silly argument and a waste of time.


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