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AuntMayMustDie




Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Super Rubbery Bung




> Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>

Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.

When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.

At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.

Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).

Suspected:-

Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.






Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
danielsan




> > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>

Also Skein (formerly known as Gypsy Moth) is bisexual, and Julie Power is questioning her own sexuality. Carolina Dean from Runaways is a lesbian. Machinesmith is a gay male, err, robot i guess.
>
> Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
>
> When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
>
> At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
>
> Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
>
> Suspected:-
>
> Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
>
>
>
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
snowstorm




and moondragon...

> > > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>
>
> Also Skein (formerly known as Gypsy Moth) is bisexual, and Julie Power is questioning her own sexuality. Carolina Dean from Runaways is a lesbian. Machinesmith is a gay male, err, robot i guess.
> >
> > Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
> >
> > When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
> >
> > At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
> >
> > Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
> >
> > Suspected:-
> >
> > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> >
> >
> >
> >


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
AndrewMTC




> and moondragon...
>

...and with Moondragon comes her girlfriend Quasar/Phyla-Vell.








(no pun intended)

> > > > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>
> >
> > Also Skein (formerly known as Gypsy Moth) is bisexual, and Julie Power is questioning her own sexuality. Carolina Dean from Runaways is a lesbian. Machinesmith is a gay male, err, robot i guess.
> > >
> > > Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
> > >
> > > When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
> > >
> > > At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
> > >
> > > Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
> > >
> > > Suspected:-
> > >
> > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >


Check it out: Shu and I (and FLCL) teamed up!



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David Medinnus




> Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?

I think that they don't need to be represented more unless they bring a new or different perspective; Gay for its own sake doesn't contribute. In many instances we have no idea of a character's religion or sexual preference, because for the vast majority of those characters who the characters really are is irrelevant to their role in the story.

In the case of Wiccan and Hulkling, its integral to the characters' dynamic and to the team dynamic.




Posted with Mozilla 1.8.1.11 on Windows XP
AuntMayMustDie




> > and moondragon...
> >
>
> ...and with Moondragon comes her girlfriend Quasar/Phyla-Vell.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (no pun intended)
>
> > > > > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>
> > >
> > > Also Skein (formerly known as Gypsy Moth) is bisexual, and Julie Power is questioning her own sexuality. Carolina Dean from Runaways is a lesbian. Machinesmith is a gay male, err, robot i guess.
> > > >
> > > > Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
> > > >
> > > > When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
> > > >
> > > > At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
> > > >
> > > > Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
> > > >
> > > > Suspected:-
> > > >
> > > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
>
> Check it out: Shu and I (and FLCL) teamed up!
>

So they do exist...well lets bring them in. I know Quasar and Moondragon (Moondragon is dead) are busy with annihalation but I would like to see one on the team...Living Lightning is a d-list character but exiles showed d-list can quickly become a-list if written right. Thanks for all the knowledge has no idea. ;\)


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Horey




You might want to visit:

http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php


> > > and moondragon...
> > >
> >
> > ...and with Moondragon comes her girlfriend Quasar/Phyla-Vell.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (no pun intended)
> >
> > > > > > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>
> > > >
> > > > Also Skein (formerly known as Gypsy Moth) is bisexual, and Julie Power is questioning her own sexuality. Carolina Dean from Runaways is a lesbian. Machinesmith is a gay male, err, robot i guess.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
> > > > >
> > > > > When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
> > > > >
> > > > > Suspected:-
> > > > >
> > > > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> >
> > Check it out: Shu and I (and FLCL) teamed up!
> >
>
> So they do exist...well lets bring them in. I know Quasar and Moondragon (Moondragon is dead) are busy with annihalation but I would like to see one on the team...Living Lightning is a d-list character but exiles showed d-list can quickly become a-list if written right. Thanks for all the knowledge has no idea. ;\)


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Bk Ray




> > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?>
>
> Flatman of the Great Lakes Initiative ( formerly Avengers, Champions) is openly gay. Living Lightning is also gay or at least bisexual .Flatman tried to get him to join the GLA but he thought it was the Gay/Lesbian Alliance and left.
>
> When Deadpool and Cable were stuck as a molecule mixed entity, they kept on having strange dreams about each other, which included a lot of massage oil. That was probably not any kind of proof, given the nature of DP's series.
>
> At least one of Jamie Madrox's duplicates has to be gay.
>
> Mystique's only real love was a woman, but she can be a man for all we know (Eric Cartman issues spring to mind for Nightcrawler!), especially since her Exiles counterpart is a rather manly man (Mystiq).
>
> Suspected:-
>
> Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
>
This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?

Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.


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Redhulk




>

> Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?
>
> I think that they don't need to be represented more unless they bring a new or different perspective; Gay for its own sake doesn't contribute. In many instances we have no idea of a character's religion or sexual preference, because for the vast majority of those characters who the characters really are is irrelevant to their role in the story.
>
> In the case of Wiccan and Hulkling, its integral to the characters' dynamic and to the team dynamic.


Yup totally agree, i know comics have to relate to people and almost make tokenism part of its entire philosophy, yet a smattering of it is fine just if you try to hard to represent every minority you soon make it look NOTHING like real life if the intention was infact to balance it out.

Most comics deal with these subjects in very good and non direct ways.

You can read the xmen and think of it as a racial statement about black suppression and yet you don't need any of the characters to be ethnic unless it really makes sense,

Personally i like that better, if you made the xmen a totally black group then unfortunately they could easily be steered into being ONLY about that issue....Zzzzzz

Yet if you keep them as they are i feel it can create a mental meme that may wake up a few more conservative and white people from their sleeps by putting them in situations they have never felt (as they are relating with the character)

So you put a gay team in the world and yes a lot of people would relate yet the majority would probably be turned off so any stories or points you want to make with the gay team would be lost, You put a redneck hetro team in gay situations

(no, not like having to plan a wedding, but situations that REALLY are serious such as having to face prejudice, violence, rejection)

And you soon get the point across about what it FEELS like to be in those situations and then they can relate more...

Having Avengers comprised of Cap Gay, Hydrocephalus Kid, Rd Dyslexic, Irritable old facist man, and auntie kleptomanicalbulimic may indeed represent the real world yet starts to become a mardi gras spectacular of crassness and repulsivness that any point is lost.

So sure all means have gay characters but dont force it....*honestly no pun intended





>
>


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dave




> >
>
> > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?
> >
> > I think that they don't need to be represented more unless they bring a new or different perspective; Gay for its own sake doesn't contribute. In many instances we have no idea of a character's religion or sexual preference, because for the vast majority of those characters who the characters really are is irrelevant to their role in the story.
> >

To be fair, it's also hard to have gay characters that don't come off as being gay for the sake of being gay. Unless a gay character is taking a prominent role, the writers have to be more then subtle. Otherwise, a lot of people just wouldn't catch on.

> > In the case of Wiccan and Hulkling, its integral to the characters' dynamic and to the team dynamic.
>
>
> Yup totally agree, i know comics have to relate to people and almost make tokenism part of its entire philosophy, yet a smattering of it is fine just if you try to hard to represent every minority you soon make it look NOTHING like real life if the intention was infact to balance it out.
>

I agree but all minorities are greatly under shown. Women make up half of our population but are probably about 1/10 of the super heroes/villains at best. Ethnic groups are vastly underrepresented. Gay characters, although I don't know what the size of the gay population is in the US (depending on who you talk to it's anywhere form .5% to 10%) but there are very few of them when you look at the total number of character Marvel has cranked out since 1962.

Basically, I don't think we're even close to the point where we can complain about having too many of any minority group.

> Most comics deal with these subjects in very good and non direct ways.
>
> You can read the xmen and think of it as a racial statement about black suppression and yet you don't need any of the characters to be ethnic unless it really makes sense,
>

The Xmen hasn't been about that in a very long time, to my displeasure. They've been about meaningless powerups and space adventures for as long as I can remember.

> Personally i like that better, if you made the xmen a totally black group then unfortunately they could easily be steered into being ONLY about that issue....Zzzzzz
>

Well it wouldn't be an analogy if it was the actual issue.

> Yet if you keep them as they are i feel it can create a mental meme that may wake up a few more conservative and white people from their sleeps by putting them in situations they have never felt (as they are relating with the character)
>

I think (and this is what you are getting at) that having racial injustice argued by a bunch of white teenagers (mutants) may have opened the doors to a lot of people who would not have otherwise listened. For example, Cyclops is a dude like me. Having him go through those issues might make it more relevant to me somehow.

> So you put a gay team in the world and yes a lot of people would relate yet the majority would probably be turned off so any stories or points you want to make with the gay team would be lost, You put a redneck hetro team in gay situations
>

I think we are in agreement but I also don't think anyone is suggesting an all gay team.

> (no, not like having to plan a wedding, but situations that REALLY are serious such as having to face prejudice, violence, rejection)
>
> And you soon get the point across about what it FEELS like to be in those situations and then they can relate more...
>

exactly, yep

> Having Avengers comprised of Cap Gay, Hydrocephalus Kid, Rd Dyslexic, Irritable old facist man, and auntie kleptomanicalbulimic may indeed represent the real world yet starts to become a mardi gras spectacular of crassness and repulsivness that any point is lost.
>

I don't think that has ever been the case.

> So sure all means have gay characters but dont force it....*honestly no pun intended
>


When has it ever been forced? I think it was handled very well in Young Avengers and (until recently) ok in Annihilation.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Brand Echh





> > Yup totally agree, i know comics have to relate to people and almost make tokenism part of its entire philosophy, yet a smattering of it is fine just if you try to hard to represent every minority you soon make it look NOTHING like real life if the intention was infact to balance it out.

> I agree but all minorities are greatly under shown. Women make up half of our population but are probably about 1/10 of the super heroes/villains at best. Ethnic groups are vastly underrepresented. Gay characters, although I don't know what the size of the gay population is in the US (depending on who you talk to it's anywhere form .5% to 10%) but there are very few of them when you look at the total number of character Marvel has cranked out since 1962.

> Basically, I don't think we're even close to the point where we can complain about having too many of any minority group.

Certainly, and this is something that has bothered me for a long time.

Mutants (before and after M-Day) have always been the biggest offender, in my mind. The mutant gene is supposedly random, so it should not care what race you are.. if it were to go by sheer statistics, the vast majority of mutants should be Indian or Chinese, yet I can think of only one Indian mutant and a dozen or so that were Chinese (most no longer mutants).

In the U.S. the largest minority is the (admittedly poorly defined) Hispanic/Latino demographic. Yet the vast majority of hispanic super-heroes were born in other countries. Only two Hispanic X-Men were ever US-born, one was Skin (who was rather unceremoniously killed), the other was Wraith, who is no longer a mutant, to my knowledge.

The fastest growing minority in the U.S. (unless this has changed) is Asian, and specifically Chinese. Jubilee was, to my knowledge, the only U.S.-born Chinese mutant (unless some were introduced between Morrison's run and M-Day). Now that is no longer the case.

Now, moving away from mutants, heroes in general. How hard is it for Marvel to have some good female heroes? That's 51 percent of the human population but (my estimation) maybe 15 percent of the hero population, if that. The same disparity applies to black heroes.

And yet, populations that are, officially, very long among normal humans, such as homosexuals or American Indians, are comparatively well represented. Last I checked American Indians represented 1 percent of the lower 48, yet there are over a dozen Native American super-heroes, moreso before M-Day. (I'm not complaining about this, just pointing it out)

Unfortunately the "tokenism" problem, and to a greater extent than most creators would like to admit, the stereotyping problem, remains.

All of those Native American heroes I mentioned? At some point in their career, I can guarantee you their costume included head-feathers and/or face paint.

Most Hispanic heroes, as mentioned, are immigrants. The few that aren't fall into stereotypes. Skin was an inner city gangster, yet living in a mostly Hispanic and gang-infested area myself, I felt this was presented well most of the time. The same cannot be said for Araña. She was created by committee specifically to be a "cool hip Latina hero." She spoke in unnatural broken English, had an ethnically diverse group of friends and was dressed in what was considered "cool" manga-inspired gear. I'm not certain what the reasoning was behind her strange Anglicization of her real name as "Anya."

I don't think I even need to mention Power-man or Black Goliath.

And yet, these characters have potential, at least, and they are a start.

Honestly, I wish writers and artists, when creating new heroes, can come up with the concept or idea and then say "hey, does this have to be a white male?"



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Nighthawk




> Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?

Yes, there are other gay characters in the MU. Most recently, in Moon Knight there have been a couple of gay characters, one in particular is a friend of Marc Spector. I think they (the two in Moon Knight) are represented pretty well. I don't think the stories in the Marvel Comics will focus solely on a character's gay lifestyle, but I also don't think that Marvel will ignore their homosexual characters either. Homosexual characters will appear in stories as incidental facets of the storylines, not unlike when the drug segments were included way back in Amazing Spider-Man #96, 97, and 98 (if I remember correctly). Harry Osborn's drug addiction was an incidental occurence in the overall story. Appearances of gay characters will be similar I believe. I hope that Marvel continues to do this. I think in some ways Marvel could probably do a little more, but I'm satisfied with their current representations.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Stuart




> The same cannot be said for Araña. She was created by committee specifically to be a "cool hip Latina hero." She spoke in unnatural broken English, had an ethnically diverse group of friends and was dressed in what was considered "cool" manga-inspired gear. I'm not certain what the reasoning was behind her strange Anglicization of her real name as "Anya."
>

That, at least, was answered in the comic. Her name is Aña, but after years of English-speakers misprouncing her name "Anna" when they saw that spelling, she got tited of having to explain to them and started using an Anglicised-spelling, Anya, so that they'd pronounce it correctly.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Brand Echh




> > The same cannot be said for Araña. She was created by committee specifically to be a "cool hip Latina hero." She spoke in unnatural broken English, had an ethnically diverse group of friends and was dressed in what was considered "cool" manga-inspired gear. I'm not certain what the reasoning was behind her strange Anglicization of her real name as "Anya."

> That, at least, was answered in the comic. Her name is Aña, but after years of English-speakers misprouncing her name "Anna" when they saw that spelling, she got tited of having to explain to them and started using an Anglicised-spelling, Anya, so that they'd pronounce it correctly.

I understand it was explained in the comic, but I don't understand why the editors felt such a change was necessary when the name of the comic book has an enye in it.




Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Darryl Blackshear




> Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?

It doesent supprise me seeing as there seem to be only a few black mutant's in the whole marvel-u. Minorities in general are grossley under represented in the marvel-u.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
AuntMayMustDie





You're reply made some interesting points...but in the end it was retarded. A gay character doesn't mean they have to always be doing gay things. Or working on gay issues. All I'm saying is you have a team of most likely 7 to 10 people. Those people all react differently. If you had a gay character in there it would be just another reaction. The idea that if you had a gay character they would have to make the team act like they were at pride or a gay bar, is just ignorant. I just one a character that likes guys. Ultimate does it with Collosus, and the storylines don't revolve around gay stuff all the time. Yes it has some storylines that deal with hate, or Collosus goes to the prom...they are awesome stories. The idea that gays can only be involved in a gay situation is so homophobic. Thats like having Luke Cage only lead the Avengers when it is a black issue. Stupid. Really stupid.
> >
>
> > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?
> >
> > I think that they don't need to be represented more unless they bring a new or different perspective; Gay for its own sake doesn't contribute. In many instances we have no idea of a character's religion or sexual preference, because for the vast majority of those characters who the characters really are is irrelevant to their role in the story.
> >
> > In the case of Wiccan and Hulkling, its integral to the characters' dynamic and to the team dynamic.
>
>
> Yup totally agree, i know comics have to relate to people and almost make tokenism part of its entire philosophy, yet a smattering of it is fine just if you try to hard to represent every minority you soon make it look NOTHING like real life if the intention was infact to balance it out.
>
> Most comics deal with these subjects in very good and non direct ways.
>
> You can read the xmen and think of it as a racial statement about black suppression and yet you don't need any of the characters to be ethnic unless it really makes sense,
>
> Personally i like that better, if you made the xmen a totally black group then unfortunately they could easily be steered into being ONLY about that issue....Zzzzzz
>
> Yet if you keep them as they are i feel it can create a mental meme that may wake up a few more conservative and white people from their sleeps by putting them in situations they have never felt (as they are relating with the character)
>
> So you put a gay team in the world and yes a lot of people would relate yet the majority would probably be turned off so any stories or points you want to make with the gay team would be lost, You put a redneck hetro team in gay situations
>
> (no, not like having to plan a wedding, but situations that REALLY are serious such as having to face prejudice, violence, rejection)
>
> And you soon get the point across about what it FEELS like to be in those situations and then they can relate more...
>
> Having Avengers comprised of Cap Gay, Hydrocephalus Kid, Rd Dyslexic, Irritable old facist man, and auntie kleptomanicalbulimic may indeed represent the real world yet starts to become a mardi gras spectacular of crassness and repulsivness that any point is lost.
>
> So sure all means have gay characters but dont force it....*honestly no pun intended
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Stuart




> > > The same cannot be said for Araña. She was created by committee specifically to be a "cool hip Latina hero." She spoke in unnatural broken English, had an ethnically diverse group of friends and was dressed in what was considered "cool" manga-inspired gear. I'm not certain what the reasoning was behind her strange Anglicization of her real name as "Anya."
>
> > That, at least, was answered in the comic. Her name is Aña, but after years of English-speakers misprouncing her name "Anna" when they saw that spelling, she got tited of having to explain to them and started using an Anglicised-spelling, Anya, so that they'd pronounce it correctly.
>
> I understand it was explained in the comic, but I don't understand why the editors felt such a change was necessary when the name of the comic book has an enye in it.
>
>

Possibly for that specific reason - by finding a way of mentioning the correct pronunciation of Aña, they were pointing out to non-Spanish speaking readers the correct pronunciation of Araña too. I'm not a Spanish-speaker, but I'd presumed it is pronounced "Aranya" ever since I learned Aña is pronounced "Anya" - hopefully I'm right on that?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Brand Echh




> Possibly for that specific reason - by finding a way of mentioning the correct pronunciation of Aña, they were pointing out to non-Spanish speaking readers the correct pronunciation of Araña too. I'm not a Spanish-speaker, but I'd presumed it is pronounced "Aranya" ever since I learned Aña is pronounced "Anya" - hopefully I'm right on that?

Hmph. Fair enough.

And yeah, that's right... don't forget to roll your "r."


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
deron





> > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> >
> This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?
>
> Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.

I believe s/he was referring to the upper educated classes, which was most certainly not fifty percent of the British male population. So perhaps you should try to not force your misunderstanding of the original point on your own manifest homophobia.

By the way -- do we mean homosexuality as an identity, or homosexuality as specific acts. Because the latter was certainly not unknown to the British upper classes or Britain in general (cf. Churchill's three traditions of the British Navy). So Sinister might have homosexual acts in his background, even if he would not necessarily identify as gay. Marlo Jones, Rick Jones's wife, had a romantic relationship with Moondragon but doesn't identify as a lesbian, I believe.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Dane Whitman




There was a Wolverine story that outed the Punisher. It was kind of a joke (and one stolen from the movie "Murder by Death") that the Punisher's interest in muscle-men magazines was down to his unceasing search for suspects. Wolverine, on the contrary, said the magazines explained a thing or two.

Then there's the Living Lightning who Slott (or Austen) outed. I tend to assume anything these guys put out is happening in an alternative reality anyway (the land that dialogue forgot). Lightning is the only Avenger on record to invite a girl back to his room and turn up at the breakfast table with her the next morning.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Dermie





> Then there's the Living Lightning who Slott (or Austen) outed.

It was Slott.

>>I tend to assume anything these guys put out is happening in an alternative reality anyway (the land that dialogue forgot). Lightning is the only Avenger on record to invite a girl back to his room and turn up at the breakfast table with her the next morning.

Yep, Miguel did have girlfriends before coming out...but that is hardly an unusual situation for young gay men in the closet.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Bk Ray




>
> > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > >
> > This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?
> >
> > Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.
>
> I believe s/he was referring to the upper educated classes, which was most certainly not fifty percent of the British male population. So perhaps you should try to not force your misunderstanding of the original point on your own manifest homophobia.

No. I am certainly not homophobic and I do not accept your insult as a defence. Even 'giving him the benefit of the doubt' He is still saying that over 50% of that region were homosexual. I find it offensive that people try to sterotype Brits, just as you might find it offensive if Americans were all labelled fat and stupid.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Baal




>
> > Then there's the Living Lightning who Slott (or Austen) outed.
>
> It was Slott.
>
> >>I tend to assume anything these guys put out is happening in an alternative reality anyway (the land that dialogue forgot). Lightning is the only Avenger on record to invite a girl back to his room and turn up at the breakfast table with her the next morning.
>
> Yep, Miguel did have girlfriends before coming out...but that is hardly an unusual situation for young gay men in the closet.

I think we need to table the Living Lightning debate until his sexuality isn't the punchline of a dumb joke. Slott had a joke to tell and used an Avenger no one cared about. When a writer has a more serious storyline use for Miguel we'll see if he's gay or straight then.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 /bsalsa.com/; on Windows Vista
Baal




History lessons given by Merchant-Ivory can be fun, can't they?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 /bsalsa.com/; on Windows Vista
deron




> >
> > > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > > >
> > > This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?
> > >
> > > Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.
> >
> > I believe s/he was referring to the upper educated classes, which was most certainly not fifty percent of the British male population. So perhaps you should try to not force your misunderstanding of the original point on your own manifest homophobia.
>
> No. I am certainly not homophobic and I do not accept your insult as a defence. Even 'giving him the benefit of the doubt' He is still saying that over 50% of that region were homosexual.

How on earth are you arriving at this statistic? The original poster said "homosexuality was well known among the educated classes"; given that he says this in the context of Mr. Sinister, who came from better-than-average (at the least) social conditions, I interpreted this to be a reference to the upper class in Britain -- which most certainly did not constitute fifty percent of the region. And men -- who are the only ones we're speaking of here -- don't constitute fifty percent of the population (globally speaking, we're fifty one percent female forty nine percent male) in any event.

>I find it offensive that people try to sterotype Brits, just as you might find it offensive if Americans were all labelled fat and stupid.
>
Well, I find it at the least interesting that you equate homosexuality with obesity and stupidity, and that you grew so angry that someone suggested that two characters might be gay given their social background. You say you are rankled that people make generalizations about Brits, but would you be so upset if someone had said "Philanthropy was known among the educated classes"? Why is it so offensive that someone made a remark that someone could have interpreted to mean that some percentage of Brits were homosexual?

Best,

DO


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Bk Ray




> > >
> > > > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > > > >
> > > > This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?
> > > >
> > > > Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.
> > >
> > > I believe s/he was referring to the upper educated classes, which was most certainly not fifty percent of the British male population. So perhaps you should try to not force your misunderstanding of the original point on your own manifest homophobia.
> >
> > No. I am certainly not homophobic and I do not accept your insult as a defence. Even 'giving him the benefit of the doubt' He is still saying that over 50% of that region were homosexual.
>
> How on earth are you arriving at this statistic? The original poster said "homosexuality was well known among the educated classes"; given that he says this in the context of Mr. Sinister, who came from better-than-average (at the least) social conditions, I interpreted this to be a reference to the upper class in Britain -- which most certainly did not constitute fifty percent of the region. And men -- who are the only ones we're speaking of here -- don't constitute fifty percent of the population (globally speaking, we're fifty one percent female forty nine percent male) in any event.
>
> >I find it offensive that people try to sterotype Brits, just as you might find it offensive if Americans were all labelled fat and stupid.
> >
> Well, I find it at the least interesting that you equate homosexuality with obesity and stupidity, and that you grew so angry that someone suggested that two characters might be gay given their social background. You say you are rankled that people make generalizations about Brits, but would you be so upset if someone had said "Philanthropy was known among the educated classes"? Why is it so offensive that someone made a remark that someone could have interpreted to mean that some percentage of Brits were homosexual?
>
> Best,
>
> DO

Simple, the poster stated that Mr Sinister was probably gay based PURELY on the fact he was an educated englishman of that period. NO OTHER REASON. Now just taking that one portion of the population he stated, educated males, then in order to be PROBABLE then over 50% of that sample group would have to be gay. Less than 50% then it would be UNPROBABLE if a member of that group was of the specified sexuality.

I am not going to insult your intelligence, but surely you know that there are common derogatory terms associated with homosexuality. I trust you don't want me to spell them out here!?!?

It is not homosexuality I specificly have a major problem with here (as in the act itself) and I have not 'kicked off' when unwelcome attention has come my way, but took it as a compliment. I have a problem rather as aforementioned, the negative content that people attach to it and therefore to Brits. This is similiar to the fact that people don't like being called 'Pakis' despite the fact that 'Paki' means pure.







Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
deron




> > > >
> > > > > > Mr Sinister comes from an era in English history where homosexuality was well known among the educated classes, although taboo to discuss. So is Elias Bogan, founder of the Hellfire Club.
> > > > > >
> > > > > This really bites me. You are saying Sinister is gay because of this fantasy? So if he's probably gay, then stats wise over 50% of the British male population was gay at this time!?!?
> > > > >
> > > > > Do not try to force your misguided assumptions on Brits.
> > > >
> > > > I believe s/he was referring to the upper educated classes, which was most certainly not fifty percent of the British male population. So perhaps you should try to not force your misunderstanding of the original point on your own manifest homophobia.
> > >
> > > No. I am certainly not homophobic and I do not accept your insult as a defence. Even 'giving him the benefit of the doubt' He is still saying that over 50% of that region were homosexual.
> >
> > How on earth are you arriving at this statistic? The original poster said "homosexuality was well known among the educated classes"; given that he says this in the context of Mr. Sinister, who came from better-than-average (at the least) social conditions, I interpreted this to be a reference to the upper class in Britain -- which most certainly did not constitute fifty percent of the region. And men -- who are the only ones we're speaking of here -- don't constitute fifty percent of the population (globally speaking, we're fifty one percent female forty nine percent male) in any event.
> >
> > >I find it offensive that people try to sterotype Brits, just as you might find it offensive if Americans were all labelled fat and stupid.
> > >
> > Well, I find it at the least interesting that you equate homosexuality with obesity and stupidity, and that you grew so angry that someone suggested that two characters might be gay given their social background. You say you are rankled that people make generalizations about Brits, but would you be so upset if someone had said "Philanthropy was known among the educated classes"? Why is it so offensive that someone made a remark that someone could have interpreted to mean that some percentage of Brits were homosexual?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > DO
>
> Simple, the poster stated that Mr Sinister was probably gay based PURELY on the fact he was an educated englishman of that period. NO OTHER REASON. Now just taking that one portion of the population he stated, educated males, then in order to be PROBABLE then over 50% of that sample group would have to be gay. Less than 50% then it would be UNPROBABLE if a member of that group was of the specified sexuality.

No, the poster did not say Mr. Sinister was probably gay. He said he suspected Mr. Sinister might be based on a specific socio-historic circumstance. He identified a particular class of British culture at specific time in history and speculated from there. You were the one who took that to mean that he was asserting some fantasy that at least fifty percent of British males were gay (though you seem to be downgrading that to fifty percent of this specific class). As you don't want to insult my intelligence, then I won't insult yours by pointing out the difference between "suspected" and "probable."
>

> It is not homosexuality I specificly have a major problem with here (as in the act itself) and I have not 'kicked off' when unwelcome attention has come my way, but took it as a compliment. I have a problem rather as aforementioned, the negative content that people attach to it and therefore to Brits. This is similiar to the fact that people don't like being called 'Pakis' despite the fact that 'Paki' means pure.

Well then perhaps you should work against the negative assumptions people have of homosexuals rather than accept them and rail against people who suggest that homosexual acts might have been repressed but not uncommon in a specific class of British society. And "Paki" is used as an epithet or lazy abbreviation by people who, generally speaking, don't know much about Pakistanis, Pakistani immigrants or their culture. They probably don't mind being called Pakistani, though. Similarly, homosexuals don't have a problem being called homosexual, though "homo" might offend. But you didn't object to an epithet, you objected to the suggestion that Mr. Sinister might be gay because it was not uncommon in Victorian upper classes -- you took it to mean that at least fifty percent of Brits must be gay. As such, it seems to me that you are indeed objecting to the suggestion of homosexuality. Now, that might not be what you intended to say or suggest, but it is what you did say and suggest.

Best,

DO
>
>
>
>
>


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Redhulk




>
> You're reply made some interesting points...but in the end it was retarded. A gay character doesn't mean they have to always be doing gay things. Or working on gay issues. All I'm saying is you have a team of most likely 7 to 10 people. Those people all react differently. If you had a gay character in there it would be just another reaction. The idea that if you had a gay character they would have to make the team act like they were at pride or a gay bar, is just ignorant. I just one a character that likes guys. Ultimate does it with Collosus, and the storylines don't revolve around gay stuff all the time. Yes it has some storylines that deal with hate, or Collosus goes to the prom...they are awesome stories. The idea that gays can only be involved in a gay situation is so homophobic. Thats like having Luke Cage only lead the Avengers when it is a black issue. Stupid. Really stupid.

Ok fair point but going around saying things like stupid just makes you come across as a bit of a bigot yourself in not wanting to listen to other opinions that dont match with your own.


And thats kinda of my real point, i can SEE having a character with a different dynamic can help create a different perspective in a comic yet having a gay character for the sake of having gay characters is just to use your words...stupid.

No one said anything about a gay character can only be in a gay situation so please take your screeching about 'homophobic comments' back.

It comes across as just a knee jerk emotive and pointless response that isn't helping anyone actually LOOK at the issues and just increases homophobic feelings or resentments if we can't acutally have adult conversations that some people may NOT agree with... lets get it all out and i think people can make up their own minds what is or what isn't homophobic without people becoming self appointed judge jurys and thought police.

My take is simple, there are MANY minorities (um wierd logic that)
and all of them bring a subtle flavor to the mix, some minorities are more sexy or have greater champions....

(side note...what do i mean? Well like charities, some are sexy and attractive and catch the publics eye such as aids, dying babies, gay rights and so on, some are less so, such as colon cancer, joggers nipple, and so on.
And as such some minorities will be considered either fair game to ignore or to actively oppress...such as who cares about white farmers in africa? or perhaps the rights of Afghanistan people to produce opium, or Chinas view on tibet or other such things that obviously are not so easily relatable or identifiable with yet are valid for those people.



Ok i use extreme examples but its late i can't think and guess you get the gist....where do we go and what do we do if we simple want to represent a cross section of the world we live in?

What i am trying to get without people screeching homophobe at me is...

Rather than force a character that happens to be gay on a story i like how things have generally evolved with gay characters previously in that it just happened to further the story it wasnt suddenly like a gay character has been shoe horned into the situation.

As in real life it resonates more when people have depth and dimension and are people who happen to also be gay rather than a gay person.

If on a story it happens to be revealed miss marvel had some lesbian trysts that would be more believable and more impact then suddenly for no apparent reason thrusting a lesbian character into the mix just to balance things up.

Same as if it was found out that captain america actually was greatly opposed to the muslim faith or abortion (or for) it would be a far more potent story as we see cap EVOLVE those feelings and fight with them rather than have a new member put on the team who happens to be anti muslim (or for)

Sure, to clarify, go ahead and add a new character that people like then maybe one day REVEAL it, i can see that.

But adding for the sake of adding to right a so called wrong just seems to contrived and a bit of grandstanding causes and overly political...politics has a place in comics but not political grandstanding.

So no 'CAPTAIN pro life for me' or 'MR euthanasia' joining the avengers.

Just as it happens that, that is the favorable political climate at the time and lets keep the personal campaigners of those causes out (whoever they may be, be it gay, feminist, conservative, muslim,christian) No matter how good the so called intentions are they are doing it from a self serving position.
Less of using the comic for their politcal means to force a view rather than what it should be about to deliver a damn good story that MAY be very political but is NOT a party politcal broadcast and allows your to EVOLVE a view.

(which accusations of stupid and homphobic do NOT allow as they entail that there is ONLY one view and it is your view...which sound amazingly facist and petty minded)

Lets get things out and use our heads and when we hear things we don't like lets stop rushing to the thought control buttons, if thats ok with you?



As i personally feel many people want a gay character NOT out of some story driven motivation but out of a desire to express and enforce a politcal view about the 'gay' issue
to create a champion for that cause and ok...thats fine in some cases, yet thats just propaganda in another name. Which is also fine, and many independent comics can and do, do that. Yet at least then you know where they are coming from.

Yet in main stream ones its nicer to come to your own conclusions and keep things relatviely seccualar when it comes to belief systems and hopefully propaganda free, (whatever you cause may be) but fair enough to show and express some stories that contain those issues..


Is that making any sense?

:P




So
> > >
> >
> > > Are there any other gay characters in the Marvel U besides Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Anole, and Karma? I think they need to be represented more. Your thoughts?
> > >
> > > I think that they don't need to be represented more unless they bring a new or different perspective; Gay for its own sake doesn't contribute. In many instances we have no idea of a character's religion or sexual preference, because for the vast majority of those characters who the characters really are is irrelevant to their role in the story.
> > >
> > > In the case of Wiccan and Hulkling, its integral to the characters' dynamic and to the team dynamic.
> >
> >
> > Yup totally agree, i know comics have to relate to people and almost make tokenism part of its entire philosophy, yet a smattering of it is fine just if you try to hard to represent every minority you soon make it look NOTHING like real life if the intention was infact to balance it out.
> >
> > Most comics deal with these subjects in very good and non direct ways.
> >
> > You can read the xmen and think of it as a racial statement about black suppression and yet you don't need any of the characters to be ethnic unless it really makes sense,
> >
> > Personally i like that better, if you made the xmen a totally black group then unfortunately they could easily be steered into being ONLY about that issue....Zzzzzz
> >
> > Yet if you keep them as they are i feel it can create a mental meme that may wake up a few more conservative and white people from their sleeps by putting them in situations they have never felt (as they are relating with the character)
> >
> > So you put a gay team in the world and yes a lot of people would relate yet the majority would probably be turned off so any stories or points you want to make with the gay team would be lost, You put a redneck hetro team in gay situations
> >
> > (no, not like having to plan a wedding, but situations that REALLY are serious such as having to face prejudice, violence, rejection)
> >
> > And you soon get the point across about what it FEELS like to be in those situations and then they can relate more...
> >
> > Having Avengers comprised of Cap Gay, Hydrocephalus Kid, Rd Dyslexic, Irritable old facist man, and auntie kleptomanicalbulimic may indeed represent the real world yet starts to become a mardi gras spectacular of crassness and repulsivness that any point is lost.
> >
> > So sure all means have gay characters but dont force it....*honestly no pun intended
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Bk Ray




> Well then perhaps you should work against the negative assumptions people have of homosexuals rather than accept them and rail against people who suggest that homosexual acts might have been repressed but not uncommon in a specific class of British society. And "Paki" is used as an epithet or lazy abbreviation by people who, generally speaking, don't know much about Pakistanis, Pakistani immigrants or their culture. They probably don't mind being called Pakistani, though. Similarly, homosexuals don't have a problem being called homosexual, though "homo" might offend. But you didn't object to an epithet, you objected to the suggestion that Mr. Sinister might be gay because it was not uncommon in Victorian upper classes -- you took it to mean that at least fifty percent of Brits must be gay. As such, it seems to me that you are indeed objecting to the suggestion of homosexuality. Now, that might not be what you intended to say or suggest, but it is what you did say and suggest.
>
Why the hell would I want to champion gay rights?!?! I mean, sure I've been to Iraq to fight 'international terror' but I voulentered because my girlfriend dumped me and I just wanted to legally go 'a bit extreme' not because I'm a moral person. What next - do you want me to save the rainforest?
I am not going to be tricked into explaining why the word homosexual can be offensive (with it's related meanings) because that would start a HUGE flame war, sorry not that stupid.
I reiterate (again) when asked who was likely to be gay - the poster said Mr Sinister because of the reasons mentioned numerous times. Therefore he based that it was likely.
I take offense because of that (BTW - he hasn't responded so he doesn't give a toss). That is my reaction of it as a Brit. You are welcome to your opinion, I will be keeping mine.




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Happy Hogan




> >
> > > Then there's the Living Lightning who Slott (or Austen) outed.
> >
> > It was Slott.
> >
> > >>I tend to assume anything these guys put out is happening in an alternative reality anyway (the land that dialogue forgot). Lightning is the only Avenger on record to invite a girl back to his room and turn up at the breakfast table with her the next morning.
> >
> > Yep, Miguel did have girlfriends before coming out...but that is hardly an unusual situation for young gay men in the closet.
>
> I think we need to table the Living Lightning debate until his sexuality isn't the punchline of a dumb joke. Slott had a joke to tell and used an Avenger no one cared about. When a writer has a more serious storyline use for Miguel we'll see if he's gay or straight then.

You said it very well. Let's let a writer who really wants to develop Living Lightning as a character decide his orientation.



Happy Hogan



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