Avengers >> View Thread
1 2  >> All



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows Vista



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows Vista
Author
Tycoon




Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls. Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem. Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid. And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it. Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor. Also we know all the spin tech and tech for the inative and thunder bolts are going to fall in enemy hands. With all the mistrust between super heros and starks side it is so open the door for the skrulls.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.

As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.

> Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.

That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.

> Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.

Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.

Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.

> And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages

So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?

> and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.

He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?

> Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.

Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
a) Thor would ever be back?
b) Thor was anti-cloning?
c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?

> Also we know all the spin tech and tech for the inative and thunder bolts are going to fall in enemy hands.

Stark and the Initiative aren't directly running the Thunderbolts. Whatever happens there, they're not to blame. And the Initiative's infiltrator is with Hydra, and thus doomed to fail worse than the Initiative ever could.

> With all the mistrust between super heros and starks side it is so open the door for the skrulls.

And yet most of the superhero community IS now registered and on Stark's side. All that's left are a couple of groups who can't accept that the war's over, and their side lost.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
CyberCoyote




The whole Illuminati thing never actually happened until Bendis and company decided to say it happened, and they only created this whole thing to create the stuff they've spun out of it. When all those past stories took place the original writers wrote their characters winning WITHOUT the Illuminati, then they say the Illuminati was behind it.

So they had to MAKE the Illuminati to create the problems they've caused and the only real reason to do it was to set all this up. They are the catalysts for everything that happens AFTER they wrote the stories because that's what the whole thing was designed for. I'll agree with the original poster because these things wouldn't be happening if not for the set up they are intrinsically responsible for, and nothing that EVER was written in the past had a single thing to do with the Illuminati so they can only be responsible for anything positive by retroactively SAYING they were even though we know not a single writer in the past was setting all this up.

WITHOUT the Illuminati stuff we could still have these stories, true, because without enemies the MU gets dull. I still like it when the bad guys can come up with devious plots themselves without the 'Heroes' screwing everything up to get it all started.







CyberCoyote-=^..^=-



Remember kids, The EIC of Marvel says that smoking is bad, divorce is bad, but Satanic Pacts are A-OK!
Somebody




> > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
>
> Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
>
> Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.

I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:

1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska. Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
2) It's the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that's before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn't have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That's what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there's the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc. And after that, THEY STILL AREN'T RID OF THE HULK, as I'm sure you've seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe's Hulk #4.

> > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
>
> Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> a) Thor would ever be back?
> b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?

a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules' word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed). I mean, let's for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
c) We've been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn't at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation. Secondly, if it hadn't been for Stark, it wouldn't have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame. Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.


SomebodyMy Blog [Old Banners page
Stuff worth looking at

Get Firefox!Get Firefox!The Hunger site, The Rainforests site, Guardian
24 000 people die every day from hunger alone. Read, and Think a little.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Happy Hogan




> > Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.
>
> As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.
>
> > Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.
>
> That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.
>
> > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.

to Tycoon: I really see that as the Hulk's bad more than the Illuminati's. The Hulk was pissed off at FOUR people, and he put an entire city in danger just to get back at them. Plus, I personally would hate to be bound and held prisoner on evidence as flimsy as what he Hulk had on Stark, Richards, Strange, and Black Bolt.

>
> Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.

Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.

>
> Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.

to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.

BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
>
> > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
>
> So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?

Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it. And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.

>
> > and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.
>
> He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?
>
> > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
>
> Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> a) Thor would ever be back?

Irrevelant to the debate.

> b) Thor was anti-cloning?

Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG! If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?

> c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did! He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.




Happy Hogan


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
emerick-man





> >
> > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> >
> > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
>
> Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it. And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
>
> >

Just a note (to readers who havent picked up this month books yet): As of The Order #7, apparently and at the least, Anthem knew some of this weather experimentation fact and it is made known to Namor.



Hire Luke & Danny:

and enter the current caption contest...


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




>
> > >
> > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > >
> > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> >
> > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it. And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
> >
> > >
>
> Just a note (to readers who havent picked up this month books yet): As of The Order #7, apparently and at the least, Anthem knew some of this weather experimentation fact and it is made known to Namor.

In other words, Ms Marvel's team didn't know about it, because they don't watch/read the news?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> The whole Illuminati thing never actually happened until Bendis and company decided to say it happened, and they only created this whole thing to create the stuff they've spun out of it. When all those past stories took place the original writers wrote their characters winning WITHOUT the Illuminati, then they say the Illuminati was behind it.
>
> So they had to MAKE the Illuminati to create the problems they've caused and the only real reason to do it was to set all this up. They are the catalysts for everything that happens AFTER they wrote the stories because that's what the whole thing was designed for. I'll agree with the original poster because these things wouldn't be happening if not for the set up they are intrinsically responsible for, and nothing that EVER was written in the past had a single thing to do with the Illuminati so they can only be responsible for anything positive by retroactively SAYING they were even though we know not a single writer in the past was setting all this up.

The one and only "event set in the past" that this groups have been inserted into, which actually has had any effect at all, is their attack on the Skrulls, and given the sheer number of times they've attacked Earth anyway, it's hardly like Marvel "needed" the Illuminati to "set up" a chain of events leading to Secret Invasion. You can "set it up" just as easily with a single page of Skrulls deciding "It's Monday again. Time to conquer Earth."

The Illuminati failed to prevent Secret Wars 2 by telling the Beyonder to leave Earth alone, and haven't been "inserted" into any other past storylines at all, at least so far.

> WITHOUT the Illuminati stuff we could still have these stories, true, because without enemies the MU gets dull. I still like it when the bad guys can come up with devious plots themselves without the 'Heroes' screwing everything up to get it all started.

I tend to think that the reason this is happening Right Here Right Now has less to do with anything humans have done to Skrulls, and more to do with Annihilus' forces crushing the Skrull empire into the dirt.

> Remember kids, The EIC of Marvel says that smoking is bad, divorce is bad, but Satanic Pacts are A-OK!

Well, yeah, clearly The Devil is less-worse than smoking, or marriage. Shouldn't you be picking on "heroes" who think it's OK to make deals with The Devil, over supergeniuses trying to do what's best for the world?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> >
> > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> >
> > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
>
> I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
>
> 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.

But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.

> Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.

Does the BJ-Hulk still count?

Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.

> 2) It's the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that's before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn't have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?

Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.

If they'd actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.

> 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That's what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there's the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.

As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.

> And after that, THEY STILL AREN'T RID OF THE HULK, as I'm sure you've seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe's Hulk #4.

Well, at this point, that's the military's stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?

> > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> >
> > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
>
> a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules' word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.

It's pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.

> b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).

Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I'd been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.

Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he'll hate who/what you hate, and he'll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.

> I mean, let's for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.

Actually, she really should've done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It'd have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.

And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn't know/care/be aware that he's been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he's a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.

> c) We've been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn't at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.

The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they're just going out of their way to make him look like crap.

> Secondly, if it hadn't been for Stark, it wouldn't have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.

Yes, but it's not like Richard and Pym would've been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they 'failed' to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.

> Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.

Their brief team-up in 'Ragnarok' aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in 'Standoff', remember? Stark's anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?

Thor's all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> > > Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.
> >
> > As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.
> >
> > > Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.
> >
> > That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.
> >
> > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
>
> to Tycoon: I really see that as the Hulk's bad more than the Illuminati's. The Hulk was pissed off at FOUR people, and he put an entire city in danger just to get back at them. Plus, I personally would hate to be bound and held prisoner on evidence as flimsy as what he Hulk had on Stark, Richards, Strange, and Black Bolt.

Exactly. By the time of WWH, Hulk's rage is less about being exiled in the first place, and much more about the explosion that wrecked his world and ended his bigamous second marriage. And Miek played him like Tetris, he was easily convinced that the Illuminati tried to kill him using a bomb which would've had to have the slowest countdown in history. If he'd actually stopped to think about it for even a minute, he should've figured it out.

> > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
>
> Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.

Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.

Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.

> > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
>
> to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
>
> BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.

Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.

> > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> >
> > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
>
> Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.

This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.

> And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.

Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.

> > > and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.
> >
> > He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?
> >
> > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> >
> > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > a) Thor would ever be back?
>
> Irrevelant to the debate.

With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.

> > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
>
> Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!

Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.

> If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?

Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!

> And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?

I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.

> > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!

No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.

> He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.

Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Happy Hogan




> > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
>
> Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.

But he didn't make it to that uninhabited planet. And it could just as easily have been a planet without the means or resources to handle an angry Hulk. The illuminati doesn't get of the hook for this.

>
> Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
>
> > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> >
> > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> >
> > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
>
> Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.

You really mean that being smarter makes him better? Because that sounds incredibly ableist. Do you think that the mentally handicapped are inferior? I haven't been one to say "Tony Stark is evil" but if he has that attitude, then I'm changing my opinion of him right now! He needs to be taken down!


> > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > >
> > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> >
> > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
>
> This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.

LOL!! Ok, I agree that the Avengers are usually composed of shallow people. That's an issue for another post, and I'm working on that list now. But I haven't read The Order. Where does Stark inform the world about what he's doing?
>
> > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
>
> Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.

And the trouble with controlling the weather is you can't get something for nothing. If you make it rain to relieve famine in one area of the world, you decrease the mostiure in the atmosphere, meaning famines in another area of the world will be more likely.


> > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > >
> > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> >
> > Irrevelant to the debate.
>
> With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.
>
> > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> >
> > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
>
> Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
Wait a minute, isn't Strife a villain? And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked. If he (Parker) had given permission, he would be as responsible as the Jackal for Kaine and all the clones that went wrong and went on killing people. Peter is innocent however because basically he was raped. Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.

>
> > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
>
> Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!
>
> > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
>
> I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.

You better prove it before you claim that. ;\-\)
>
> > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
>
> No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
>
> > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
>
> Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?

Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.

Happy Hogan


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero Supports Cloning




> > > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
> >
> > Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.
>
> But he didn't make it to that uninhabited planet.

But would've, if not for a rift in space that no-one could've forseen.

> And it could just as easily have been a planet without the means or resources to handle an angry Hulk.

If things had gone to plan, no, it would've been the world they specifically selected to offer him the peaceful existence he's always said he wants, with no sentient life.

> The illuminati doesn't get of the hook for this.

So because it went wrong (and did so due to something as unforeseeable as a rift in space), it should never have been attempted?

> > Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
> >
> > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > >
> > > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> > >
> > > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
> >
> > Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.
>
> You really mean that being smarter makes him better? Because that sounds incredibly ableist. Do you think that the mentally handicapped are inferior? I haven't been one to say "Tony Stark is evil" but if he has that attitude, then I'm changing my opinion of him right now! He needs to be taken down!

I'm not saying that he himself has said this, so much as he DOES always end up being right, because he's a supergenius. Tony makes snap-decisions that he's too stubborn to ever reconsider, and he does things like faking his death that may hurt those who are close to him, but he does so in the complete certainty that When It All Works Out For The Best, Everyone Will Thank Him.

And given the plethora of knuckledragging meatheads in the superhuman community, deferring to the geniuses isn't a bad idea.

> > > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > > >
> > > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> > >
> > > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
> >
> > This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.
>
> LOL!! Ok, I agree that the Avengers are usually composed of shallow people. That's an issue for another post, and I'm working on that list now.

I'm not sure it's the Avengers in general, so much as most of that lineup in particular, who largely seem to have been chosen so that Cho could draw T&A, and lots of it.

> But I haven't read The Order. Where does Stark inform the world about what he's doing?

I haven't read the issue yet, but members of The Order, including their leader, Anthem, are shown to know about it, and while he and Tony are shown to be old friends, they've hardly spent that much time around each other since he joined The Order that he'd be part of Tony's "super-secret inner circle who know all of his secret projects". It's more believable that "Stark experiments with weather control satellites" made it into the news, but wouldn't have made headline news until the things were up, running and working. Which Ultron did, if not in the way anyone planned.

> > > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
> >
> > Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.
>
> And the trouble with controlling the weather is you can't get something for nothing. If you make it rain to relieve famine in one area of the world, you decrease the mostiure in the atmosphere, meaning famines in another area of the world will be more likely.

In other words, because it might not work, they should never try? Especially in the context of Marvel super-science, where it doesn't have to obey actual real-world natural laws of how weather works, it's not impossible that they COULD make this work for the betterment of the entire world.

> > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > >
> > > Irrevelant to the debate.
> >
> > With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
> He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.

Cloning is beyond any such limited notions of "right" and "wrong", it is a necessary development in human evolution.

> > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > >
> > > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
> >
> > Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
> Wait a minute, isn't Strife a villain?

That stops him being "brave"...how?

> And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.

And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.

> If he (Parker) had given permission, he would be as responsible as the Jackal for Kaine and all the clones that went wrong and went on killing people. Peter is innocent however because basically he was raped.

Being cloned does not = being raped, largely since at no point did Miles Warren forcibly have the sex with Peter. As for Kaine, nobody, not the Jackal, not Peter, not society, told him to be a killer, he chose that life. Kaine is to blame for Kaine's crimes.

> Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.

No, Tony, Reed and Hank have at no point raped Thor. Yet strangely he seems angrier with Tony than with Moondragon, who actually HAS raped him.

> > > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> >
> > Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
> But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!

I'd say "bring it!", but the world needs to concentrate on cloning people of significance/importance/historical-relevance before it starts cloning some guy I met online.

But once you're dead, you're fair game for cloning.

> > > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
> >
> > I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.
>
> You better prove it before you claim that. ;\-\)

Can you DISPROVE it? Or at least say "Tony wouldn't do that"?

> > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
> >
> > No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
> >
> > > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
> >
> > Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?
>
> Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.

Standoff? Thor/Iron Man/Avengers Crossover in 2003? All 3 issues drawn by Alan Davis? Had Doctor Doom in it? They made a Marvel Legends figure of Tony's Anti-Thor Armor from it? Broke the Tony/Thor friendship FOREVERMORE? Anyone? I know I didn't dream it.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Sandman




> > > Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.
> >
> > As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.
> >
> > > Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.
> >
> > That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.
> >
> > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
>
> to Tycoon: I really see that as the Hulk's bad more than the Illuminati. The Hulk was pissed off at FOUR people, and he put an entire city in danger just to get back at them. Plus, I personally would hate to be bound and held prisoner on evidence as flimsy as what he Hulk had on Stark, Richards, Strange, and Black Bolt.

To be fair, the Hulk and crew actually invaded Manhattan, instead of attacking it, with possible evidence of the four's guilt, while Stark is the one who's actions started and caused more damage to the city while the Hulk was in defense. Tony and the super-heroes were reckless as if Tony and Reed were too important to the world as if the human race was pathetic to take care of themselves. And let's not forget that the Hulk ended up saving innocent lives from their actions like Doctor Strange and Iron Man, while the Hulk did almost go nuclear when he found out he was betrayed, but was willing to sacrifice himself to save the people.

In the end, the Illuminati proven to be more dangerous when it comes to the actions they chose to make and proved that they were the villains to the people and not the Hulk. Also, even though they were innocent, they acted like they believed it was possible that they're responsible. That they were in denial and were saving themselves.
>
> >
> > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
>
> Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
>
> >
> > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
>
> to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
>
> BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
> >
> > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> >
> > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
>
> Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it. And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
>
> >
> > > and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.
> >
> > He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?
> >
> > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> >
> > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > a) Thor would ever be back?
>
> Irrevelant to the debate.
>
> > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
>
> Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG! If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
>
> > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did! He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
>
>
>
>
> Happy Hogan


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Sandman




> > > > Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.
> > >
> > > As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.
> > >
> > > > Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.
> > >
> > > That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.
> > >
> > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> >
> > to Tycoon: I really see that as the Hulk's bad more than the Illuminati's. The Hulk was pissed off at FOUR people, and he put an entire city in danger just to get back at them. Plus, I personally would hate to be bound and held prisoner on evidence as flimsy as what he Hulk had on Stark, Richards, Strange, and Black Bolt.
>
> Exactly. By the time of WWH, Hulk's rage is less about being exiled in the first place, and much more about the explosion that wrecked his world and ended his bigamous second marriage. And Miek played him like Tetris, he was easily convinced that the Illuminati tried to kill him using a bomb which would've had to have the slowest countdown in history. If he'd actually stopped to think about it for even a minute, he should've figured it out.

The Hulk probably thought it was a fail-safe in case he made an attempt to fix the ship.
>
> > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> >
> > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
>
> Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.
>
> Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
>
> > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> >
> > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> >
> > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
>
> Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.

At inventing and business, but he's proven that his talents aren't based on leadership when it comes to politics and military since he's now wishing that Nick Fury was here, because he admits that he doesn't know what he's doing and Fury would. He now knows that he isn't a genius when it comes to things like this, while Cap and Fury were, and this is why the Red Skull has taken down half of his S.H.I.E.L.D. operatives under his nose because the Red Skull is a "military" futurist, and the same with Cap because he knew how this was going to end and why he was against it which the What If issue proved and was probably what enlighten Tony on what he was really doing which wasn't improving things, but creating a cure that was worse then the disease because he arrogantly entered fields that he had no skills for.
>
> > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > >
> > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> >
> > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
>
> This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.

As well as S.H.I.E.L.D.?, because it seemed that Tony forgot to mention this to everybody.
>
> > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
>
> Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.
>
> > > > and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.
> > >
> > > He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?
> > >
> > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > >
> > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> >
> > Irrevelant to the debate.
>
> With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
>
> > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> >
> > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
>
> Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.

Same with a rape victim's child, but it's still a crime, and they used Clor as a weapon with no free will of his own, even though they had a hard time controlling him.
>
> > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
>
> Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
>
> > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
>
> I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.
>
> > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
>
> No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
>
> > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
>
> Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Sandman




> > > > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
> > >
> > > Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.
> >
> > But he didn't make it to that uninhabited planet.
>
> But would've, if not for a rift in space that no-one could've forseen.

As well as a whole lot of other things since the universe is big and auto-pilot is the most unsafe way to travel when out there, especially coming from a planet a privative as earth. You could say that Reed and Tony are smart, but their resources are too limited.
>
> > And it could just as easily have been a planet without the means or resources to handle an angry Hulk.
>
> If things had gone to plan, no, it would've been the world they specifically selected to offer him the peaceful existence he's always said he wants, with no sentient life.
>
> > The illuminati doesn't get of the hook for this.
>
> So because it went wrong (and did so due to something as unforeseeable as a rift in space), it should never have been attempted?
>
> > > Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
> > >
> > > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > > >
> > > > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
> > >
> > > Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.
> >
> > You really mean that being smarter makes him better? Because that sounds incredibly ableist. Do you think that the mentally handicapped are inferior? I haven't been one to say "Tony Stark is evil" but if he has that attitude, then I'm changing my opinion of him right now! He needs to be taken down!
>
> I'm not saying that he himself has said this, so much as he DOES always end up being right, because he's a supergenius. Tony makes snap-decisions that he's too stubborn to ever reconsider, and he does things like faking his death that may hurt those who are close to him, but he does so in the complete certainty that When It All Works Out For The Best, Everyone Will Thank Him.
>
> And given the plethora of knuckledragging meatheads in the superhuman community, deferring to the geniuses isn't a bad idea.
>
> > > > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > > > >
> > > > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> > > >
> > > > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
> > >
> > > This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.
> >
> > LOL!! Ok, I agree that the Avengers are usually composed of shallow people. That's an issue for another post, and I'm working on that list now.
>
> I'm not sure it's the Avengers in general, so much as most of that lineup in particular, who largely seem to have been chosen so that Cho could draw T&A, and lots of it.
>
> > But I haven't read The Order. Where does Stark inform the world about what he's doing?
>
> I haven't read the issue yet, but members of The Order, including their leader, Anthem, are shown to know about it, and while he and Tony are shown to be old friends, they've hardly spent that much time around each other since he joined The Order that he'd be part of Tony's "super-secret inner circle who know all of his secret projects". It's more believable that "Stark experiments with weather control satellites" made it into the news, but wouldn't have made headline news until the things were up, running and working. Which Ultron did, if not in the way anyone planned.
>
> > > > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
> > >
> > > Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.
> >
> > And the trouble with controlling the weather is you can't get something for nothing. If you make it rain to relieve famine in one area of the world, you decrease the mostiure in the atmosphere, meaning famines in another area of the world will be more likely.
>
> In other words, because it might not work, they should never try? Especially in the context of Marvel super-science, where it doesn't have to obey actual real-world natural laws of how weather works, it's not impossible that they COULD make this work for the betterment of the entire world.
>
> > > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > >
> > > > Irrevelant to the debate.
> > >
> > > With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
> > He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.
>
> Cloning is beyond any such limited notions of "right" and "wrong", it is a necessary development in human evolution.
>
> > > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > >
> > > > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
> > >
> > > Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
> > Wait a minute, isn't Strife a villain?
>
> That stops him being "brave"...how?
>
> > And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.
>
> And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.
>
> > If he (Parker) had given permission, he would be as responsible as the Jackal for Kaine and all the clones that went wrong and went on killing people. Peter is innocent however because basically he was raped.
>
> Being cloned does not = being raped, largely since at no point did Miles Warren forcibly have the sex with Peter. As for Kaine, nobody, not the Jackal, not Peter, not society, told him to be a killer, he chose that life. Kaine is to blame for Kaine's crimes.
>
> > Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.
>
> No, Tony, Reed and Hank have at no point raped Thor. Yet strangely he seems angrier with Tony than with Moondragon, who actually HAS raped him.
>
> > > > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> > >
> > > Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
> > But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!
>
> I'd say "bring it!", but the world needs to concentrate on cloning people of significance/importance/historical-relevance before it starts cloning some guy I met online.
>
> But once you're dead, you're fair game for cloning.
>
> > > > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
> > >
> > > I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.
> >
> > You better prove it before you claim that. ;\-\)
>
> Can you DISPROVE it? Or at least say "Tony wouldn't do that"?
>
> > > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
> > >
> > > No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
> > >
> > > > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
> > >
> > > Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?
> >
> > Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.
>
> Standoff? Thor/Iron Man/Avengers Crossover in 2003? All 3 issues drawn by Alan Davis? Had Doctor Doom in it? They made a Marvel Legends figure of Tony's Anti-Thor Armor from it? Broke the Tony/Thor friendship FOREVERMORE? Anyone? I know I didn't dream it.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
emerick man




> >
> > > >
> > > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > > >
> > > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> > >
> > > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it. And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
> > >
> > > >
> >
> > Just a note (to readers who havent picked up this month books yet): As of The Order #7, apparently and at the least, Anthem knew some of this weather experimentation fact and it is made known to Namor.
>
> In other words, Ms Marvel's team didn't know about it, because they don't watch/read the news?

It is a curious point that should be addressed. Not clear how classified the information was before the reveal here. Maybe special debriefing/interrogation was delegated to Anthem. Maybe my note was inferring to much connection to Stark's actual connection to creating (dangerour/experimental) weather tech as known by the public.

Well at least this issue should confirm Tony *love* Thor ;\) ...




Hire Luke & Danny:

And enter that current caption contest...
Or take this survey...



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Omar Karindu




Arguably (and often convincingly argued to be) right on about the need to regulate supers and banish the Hulk, but defeated before he starts because he appears in superhero comics and hasn't worked that critical fact out. If he'd just listened to She-Hulk, all of this could have been avoided...

More seriously, though, Marvel really have set Tony up to fall hard downt he line, if only because superhero comics tend to read much better when the heroes are outside the system than when they're in it. There's a reason we like seeing the X-Men blow up billions of dollars in giant purple robots built with our tax dollars, and why Claremont was able to refit Magneto as a charismatic revolutionary rather than a ranting megalomaniac.

As long as Marvel needs to publish Spider-Man and Daredevil and Luke Cage, the SHRA will be flouted constantly; as long as there's a Hulk book (or two, these days), banishing big green is just going to bring him back madder than ever and looking for payback; and as long as Tony Stark is trying to rein in and regulate the superheroes for the good of those insignificant background ciphers who don't even appear on panel most of the time, all he really does is get in the way of big spectacular super-battles and wacky misunderstood outlaw heroes and audience-identification rookie heroes.

The SHRA and all that are perfectly, rationally, and logically right and good and smart if you're thinking about super-powers as if they existed in the real world. In the context of publishing superhero comics, though, they wind up sacrificing entertainment on the altar of an especially anal notion of plausibility. It's right up there with worrying about the contractors who worked on the Death Star, which makes for good geek conversation now and then but hardly enhances a viewing of Return of the Jedi.

I don't care about Miriam Sharpe and her poor dead son I'd never heard of before Civil War #1 anywhere near as much as I care about Namorita, a character who actually appeared in stories and in whom it was therefore possible to be invested. (I don't care about Speedball, though; I hate the aggressive stupidity that is Penance, but don't really wring my hands about that insignificant bouncy guy.)

But I really don't care what happens to the made-up and largely off-panel civilians in the made-up America that exists in Mark Millar's head. If they need to blow up and go splat and die horribly to make the stakes of the next big fight bigger, I say kill 'em all. It's not like the story's actually about them, and unlike real people, they have no names, no faces, no personalities, and no relatives (until those are made up too) for me to give one good damn about. I care about Spider-man and Iron Man and the Hulk.

When the comics are titled "Astonishing Adventures of Innocent Bystander-Man," I'll support the Tony because he fights for them folk. Until then, he's just a plot complication in my comics, annoying and harassing the protagonists I actually wanna read about. I don't really care if he's right in context at that point, because what he's right about doesn't exist anyway and bollixes up the narrative.

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Omar Karindu




> > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > >
> > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > >
> > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> >
> > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> >
> > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
>
> But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
>
> > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
>
> Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
>
> Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.

Ah, but I don't, and neither do you or anyone else. I live on a planet where it's fun to read stories about Hulk smashing stuff. And that makes all the difference.

> Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.

Considering that he's had access to Banner's intellect for something like half his published existence at this point, those odds are pretty damned good. It's not as if Tony, Reed, et al. had never encountered the Professor and Grey Hulks, for instance; for that matter, if they'd done even a seconds' worth of research they'd have worked out that the Hulk they were exiling was one fo the intelligent variations and might've modified their plan accordingly.

None of which makes them wrong, let alone lays the blame for what happened next on them,

In any case, as fun and maybe even satisfying as it is to argue that Tony et al. were right, even you had to know that exiling the Hulk was going to set up some sort of "Hulk returns, beats down the Illuminati plot right from the start. That's just how superhero comics work; Tony Stark was always going to be pounded on so that Hulk fans could cheer, the question was merely how Marvel would get us back to that point.

In any case, I disagree in one respect: there's someone even righter for running the MU than Tony, and that's the bloke I quote in my signature. (Hint: not John Seavey.)

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Somebody




> > And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.
>
> And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.

Actually, if you asked Peter now, he'd probably go "who's Ben Reilly?" *rhe*

> > > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
> > >
> > > No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
> > >
> > > > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
> > >
> > > Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?
> >
> > Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.
>
> Standoff? Thor/Iron Man/Avengers Crossover in 2003? All 3 issues drawn by Alan Davis? Had Doctor Doom in it? They made a Marvel Legends figure of Tony's Anti-Thor Armor from it? Broke the Tony/Thor friendship FOREVERMORE? Anyone? I know I didn't dream it.

I don't think Thor even appeared in Davis' Avengers v3 run until the Kang War was underway ;\)


SomebodyMy Blog [Old Banners page
Stuff worth looking at

Get Firefox!Get Firefox!The Hunger site, The Rainforests site, Guardian
24 000 people die every day from hunger alone. Read, and Think a little.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Innfected




> Arguably (and often convincingly argued to be) right on about the need to regulate supers and banish the Hulk, but defeated before he starts because he appears in superhero comics and hasn't worked that critical fact out. If he'd just listened to She-Hulk, all of this could have been avoided...
>
> More seriously, though, Marvel really have set Tony up to fall hard downt he line, if only because superhero comics tend to read much better when the heroes are outside the system than when they're in it. There's a reason we like seeing the X-Men blow up billions of dollars in giant purple robots built with our tax dollars, and why Claremont was able to refit Magneto as a charismatic revolutionary rather than a ranting megalomaniac.
>
> As long as Marvel needs to publish Spider-Man and Daredevil and Luke Cage, the SHRA will be flouted constantly; as long as there's a Hulk book (or two, these days), banishing big green is just going to bring him back madder than ever and looking for payback; and as long as Tony Stark is trying to rein in and regulate the superheroes for the good of those insignificant background ciphers who don't even appear on panel most of the time, all he really does is get in the way of big spectacular super-battles and wacky misunderstood outlaw heroes and audience-identification rookie heroes.
>
> The SHRA and all that are perfectly, rationally, and logically right and good and smart if you're thinking about super-powers as if they existed in the real world. In the context of publishing superhero comics, though, they wind up sacrificing entertainment on the altar of an especially anal notion of plausibility. It's right up there with worrying about the contractors who worked on the Death Star, which makes for good geek conversation now and then but hardly enhances a viewing of Return of the Jedi.
>
> I don't care about Miriam Sharpe and her poor dead son I'd never heard of before Civil War #1 anywhere near as much as I care about Namorita, a character who actually appeared in stories and in whom it was therefore possible to be invested. (I don't care about Speedball, though; I hate the aggressive stupidity that is Penance, but don't really wring my hands about that insignificant bouncy guy.)
>
> But I really don't care what happens to the made-up and largely off-panel civilians in the made-up America that exists in Mark Millar's head. If they need to blow up and go splat and die horribly to make the stakes of the next big fight bigger, I say kill 'em all. It's not like the story's actually about them, and unlike real people, they have no names, no faces, no personalities, and no relatives (until those are made up too) for me to give one good damn about. I care about Spider-man and Iron Man and the Hulk.
>
> When the comics are titled "Astonishing Adventures of Innocent Bystander-Man," I'll support the Tony because he fights for them folk. Until then, he's just a plot complication in my comics, annoying and harassing the protagonists I actually wanna read about. I don't really care if he's right in context at that point, because what he's right about doesn't exist anyway and bollixes up the narrative.
>
> - Omar Karindu
>
> "A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom
>
> "It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey




Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Somebody




> > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > >
> > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > >
> > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> >
> > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> >
> > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
>
> But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.

He'd apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.

> > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
>
> Does the BJ-Hulk still count?

Nightmare.

> Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.

Before or after you launched yourself? ;\) Or are you suggesting that you'd launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he'd stamp it down to Earth?

> > 2) It's the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that's before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn't have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
>
> Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.

I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.

> If they'd actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.

Actually, the A-Wave wasn't restricting themselves to habitated planets. They were pretty much slashing and burning until Nova's United Front finally managed to baulk them 200-odd days after A-Day.

> > 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That's what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there's the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.
>
> As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.

Was the Hulk to blame? Certainly. But the whole chain of events must be taken into consideration, and the kickoff was the Illuminators' meeting. And it's not as if Namor of all people didn't see it coming even then.

And it's not as if they had the Best Plan Ever when it came - at the very least, Tony could have led the Hulk AWAY from all the buildings rather than demolishing Avengers Tower.

> > And after that, THEY STILL AREN'T RID OF THE HULK, as I'm sure you've seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe's Hulk #4.
>
> Well, at this point, that's the military's stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?

Could they have known Rulk would come along? Probably not.

Could they have known the Hulk Would Return? Yes. I refer you again to the example of the Maestro, who eventually regenerated *from a frakking skeleton*.

> > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > >
> > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> >
> > a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules' word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
>
> It's pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.

The same way they should have worked up a time-stasis booth for The Witch? Or how Teh Tony should have run to Forge and asked him to update his Skrull detector before Bishop shot him in the back? Or how they should have ripped Wasp's voicebox out years back for the good of all concerned?

> > b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).
>
> Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I'd been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.
>
> Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he'll hate who/what you hate, and he'll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.

Why? He wouldn't have my memories, or my experiences.

> > I mean, let's for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
>
> Actually, she really should've done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It'd have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.

Rogue would have gone "But sugah, Gambie wouldn't do such a thing! It must be ah impersoatoh."

Mystique's mistake was not videoing it. And then forcing Rogue to watch it with her eyes glued open until she felt nothing but hate for Gambit.

> And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn't know/care/be aware that he's been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he's a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.

Ever tried to photocopy a photocopy of a photocopy? It doesn't look much like the original by that point, which would be the problem with mass-scale cloning-as-reproduction. It's the ultimate in inbreeding.

> > c) We've been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn't at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.
>
> The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they're just going out of their way to make him look like crap.
>
> > Secondly, if it hadn't been for Stark, it wouldn't have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.
>
> Yes, but it's not like Richard and Pym would've been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they 'failed' to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.

"At least a third of the blame" != "all the blame"

> > Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.
>
> Their brief team-up in 'Ragnarok' aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in 'Standoff', remember? Stark's anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?

[Jetstorm] Say what? [/Jetstorm]

*draws your attention to their interaction in Ragnarok, which wasn't the actions of people who are working together only because they have no choice. Plus, they teamed up in Amazing Spider-Man #498-500 (v2 #57-59) after Thor was merged back together but before Ragnarok.*

> Thor's all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.

Thor seemed more ticked about hero vs. hero than any possibility of that.


SomebodyMy Blog [Old Banners page
Stuff worth looking at

Get Firefox!Get Firefox!The Hunger site, The Rainforests site, Guardian
24 000 people die every day from hunger alone. Read, and Think a little.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Phillydawg





> Standoff? Thor/Iron Man/Avengers Crossover in 2003? All 3 issues drawn by Alan Davis? Had Doctor Doom in it? They made a Marvel Legends figure of Tony's Anti-Thor Armor from it? Broke the Tony/Thor friendship FOREVERMORE? Anyone? I know I didn't dream it.

The Standoff crossover started in Thor #58, and yes, it did put an end to the Tony/Thor friendship temporarily.

However, in Thor #81, the second issue of Oeming's Ragnarok saga, Thor and Tony patched things up again and Tony, Cap, and Thor fought side by side against Asgard's foes. Cap and Tony even wanted to stay and help Thor out, but he transported the two of them back to Earth.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
CyberCoyote





> The Illuminati failed to prevent Secret Wars 2 by telling the Beyonder to leave Earth alone, and haven't been "inserted" into any other past storylines at all, at least so far.

I assumed they eluded to them doing more. Musta misunderstood posts on the series. Only ones I ever actually bought were the first of the original series and last of the.. uh.. er..last.


> I tend to think that the reason this is happening Right Here Right Now has less to do with anything humans have done to Skrulls, and more to do with Annihilus' forces crushing the Skrull empire into the dirt.

It seemed that when the first Annihilation was coming out Bendis and Co had no idea what it was all about, I remember the editor for Annihilation (forget his name) posting regularly on another board (very nice fellow, handled negativity really well)and THEY didn't know what was going on in the Avengers/regular books and pretty much vice-versa. The nod then was there was no coordination between the two and Bendis' Skrull plot had been conceived completely separate from Annihilation. They really should, if they have not, tie the two together, now. If Annihilation hadn't been such a huge success they'd probably ignore it (Reed ran into Super Skrull when it all started and never seemed to care a bit that someone from the Negative Zone was attacking the universe). But as you say, it puts the Skrulls in a desperate situation and gives a lot more purpose to them. Sometimes the fans do a better job of justifying stuff than the writers. Heck, WITHOUT the Illuminati it could come to this, one Skrull agent could gather the genetic materials or whatever it was they nabbed from the Illins.

> > Remember kids, The EIC of Marvel says that smoking is bad, divorce is bad, but Satanic Pacts are A-OK!
>
> Well, yeah, clearly The Devil is less-worse than smoking, or marriage. Shouldn't you be picking on "heroes" who think it's OK to make deals with The Devil, over supergeniuses trying to do what's best for the world?

Nah, I only like picking on the real people in my sigs \:\) I still Think Pete needs to burn in Heck for what he decided, and Reed and Stark need to get force fed some humble pie. Actually it looks like McDuffie baked some up for his last issue of FF coming out next week.








CyberCoyote-=^..^=-



Remember kids, The EIC of Marvel says that smoking is bad, divorce is bad, but Satanic Pacts are A-OK!
MysteryMan




> At inventing and business, but he's proven that his talents aren't based on leadership when it comes to politics and military since he's now wishing that Nick Fury was here, because he admits that he doesn't know what he's doing and Fury would. He now knows that he isn't a genius when it comes to things like this, while Cap and Fury were, and this is why the Red Skull has taken down half of his S.H.I.E.L.D. operatives under his nose because the Red Skull is a "military" futurist, and the same with Cap because he knew how this was going to end and why he was against it which the What If issue proved and was probably what enlighten Tony on what he was really doing which wasn't improving things, but creating a cure that was worse then the disease because he arrogantly entered fields that he had no skills for.

The What IF showed that Tony was COMPLETELY right. Go back and read the issue you are referencing.

1)It showed if Tony had not taken the reigns things would have been VASTLY worse.

2)It showed Cap did NOT have what it took to do it alone and he ended up realizing he was on the wrong side even later since Tony wasnt there.

What it did show was how much things would have been better if Tony and Steve had gotten on it together and combined their talents/skills.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
MysteryMan




> Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls. Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem. Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid. And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it. Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor. Also we know all the spin tech and tech for the inative and thunder bolts are going to fall in enemy hands. With all the mistrust between super heros and starks side it is so open the door for the skrulls.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > >
> > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > >
> > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > >
> > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> >
> > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
>
> He'd apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.

What have we learned about paying attention to time-scales that comics actually give us. The Marvel Sliding Time-Scale is unlikely to ever permit as much as 8 months between House of M and Civil War.

And the Hulk has enough of a history of rampaging to justify a constant "Something Must Be Done To Stop Hulk" policy, rather than a "Where do let a 3000lbs gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants" policy of appeasement that never works with any lasting effect anyway.

> > > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
> >
> > Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
>
> Nightmare.

I remain uncomfortable with writing off that many comics as all being an extended dream sequence. Maybe if they'd had the decency to have the "back to reality" moment being the Leader walk out of the shower to prove he wasn't dead, or something?

> > Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.
>
> Before or after you launched yourself? ;\)

Well, while we're stuck here, may as well try to make the best of it?

> Or are you suggesting that you'd launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he'd stamp it down to Earth?

That's actually a marvellously insane plan I'd love to see some genocidal nut try, but I'd pass on it myself, since it depends far too much on the Hulk doing exactly what you want him to do, which is usually unlikely at the best of times.

> > > 2) It's the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that's before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn't have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
> >
> > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
>
> I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.

As I'll tell the "ambassador from Latveria" (does this make him Dreadknight/Kristoff Vernard/Andro the Doomsman?), even when the Hulk has access to the full extent of Banner's scientific genius, that genius does not include any level of training in piloting alien spacecraft, least of all alien spacecraft designed for use by a not-even-sort-of-humanoid insect species. He'd need someone like Lobe writing him to make it happen.

> > If they'd actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.
>
> Actually, the A-Wave wasn't restricting themselves to habitated planets. They were pretty much slashing and burning until Nova's United Front finally managed to baulk them 200-odd days after A-Day.

Your own argument misses out the point that they would probably have just destroyed the planet from orbit with one of their various superweapons, as likely as even set foot on it in the first place. If Annihilus has any level of awareness of who the Hulk is, he'd more than likely have gone for the "we've got to kill the planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." option.

> > > 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That's what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there's the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.
> >
> > As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.
>
> Was the Hulk to blame? Certainly. But the whole chain of events must be taken into consideration, and the kickoff was the Illuminators' meeting. And it's not as if Namor of all people didn't see it coming even then.

Namor was always the dissenting voice of the Illuminati who'd say everything was a bad idea. Consider him just being consistent here, although I can't call it a "stopped clock moment", since the Illuminati screwed up their attack on the Skrulls, and their visit to the Beyonder, too.

> And it's not as if they had the Best Plan Ever when it came - at the very least, Tony could have led the Hulk AWAY from all the buildings rather than demolishing Avengers Tower.

Hulk smacked him into the Avengers Tower, and he never had much chance to get away after that, did he? Besides, Tony's whole plan hinged on his nano-weapon, which should've worked, if Hydra hadn't sabotaged it.

> > > And after that, THEY STILL AREN'T RID OF THE HULK, as I'm sure you've seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe's Hulk #4.
> >
> > Well, at this point, that's the military's stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?
>
> Could they have known Rulk would come along? Probably not.

Well, who in their right mind would have?

And you coin "Tension-Sheet Hulk" yourself, then drop it for something so much less fun as "Rulk"?

> Could they have known the Hulk Would Return? Yes. I refer you again to the example of the Maestro, who eventually regenerated *from a frakking skeleton*.

Is anyone besides Hulk even aware Maestro did this, though?

Still, this is why you put him down when he's Banner, not when he's Hulk. The chance was there for the military, even if the superhero community generally don't go in for executing defeated foes right there and then. Punisher or Early Cable would've done it.

> > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > >
> > > a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules' word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
> >
> > It's pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.
>
> The same way they should have worked up a time-stasis booth for The Witch?

When you say "time-stasis booth", I'm choosing to read "mercy killing", given how in Genosha, her power was still doing stuff while she was unconscious.

> Or how Teh Tony should have run to Forge and asked him to update his Skrull detector before Bishop shot him in the back?

Clearly, the X-books and Avengers books aren't running in synch, and Forge got shot before Tony learned of the Skrulls.

> Or how they should have ripped Wasp's voicebox out years back for the good of all concerned?

So it's less "why did Hank hit Wasp?", and more "Why'd it take him so long?" The man must have the patience of a Saint.

> > > b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).
> >
> > Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I'd been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.
> >
> > Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he'll hate who/what you hate, and he'll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.
>
> Why? He wouldn't have my memories, or my experiences.

Via real-world science, no. Via comic-science, he more than likely would have all of them (although for his sake, we won't give him the memories of what you did last summer), and be artificially aged to the same age as you.

> > > I mean, let's for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
> >
> > Actually, she really should've done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It'd have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.
>
> Rogue would have gone "But sugah, Gambie wouldn't do such a thing! It must be ah impersoatoh."
>
> Mystique's mistake was not videoing it. And then forcing Rogue to watch it with her eyes glued open until she felt nothing but hate for Gambit.

That, or just dressing up as Gambit and having the sex right in front of Rogue. Possibly even involving someone else.

> > And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn't know/care/be aware that he's been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he's a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.
>
> Ever tried to photocopy a photocopy of a photocopy? It doesn't look much like the original by that point, which would be the problem with mass-scale cloning-as-reproduction. It's the ultimate in inbreeding.

Which is why you prevent that via composite-cloning from various DNA sources. Such as using the DNA of history's greatest leaders to create an Emperor of the World.

> > > c) We've been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn't at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.
> >
> > The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they're just going out of their way to make him look like crap.
> >
> > > Secondly, if it hadn't been for Stark, it wouldn't have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.
> >
> > Yes, but it's not like Richard and Pym would've been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they 'failed' to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.
>
> "At least a third of the blame" != "all the blame"

I reiterate that one does not "blame" anyone for a Cyborg Thor Clone. One THANKS them for creating Awesome.

> > > Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.
> >
> > Their brief team-up in 'Ragnarok' aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in 'Standoff', remember? Stark's anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?
>
> [Jetstorm] Say what? [/Jetstorm]

If only there were some resource on this Internets whereby I might prove it happened.

> *draws your attention to their interaction in Ragnarok, which wasn't the actions of people who are working together only because they have no choice.

You missed the pages where they kept flipping each other off?

> Plus, they teamed up in Amazing Spider-Man #498-500 (v2 #57-59) after Thor was merged back together but before Ragnarok.*

...whuh? I remember Spidey spending #500 on some time-travel thingy.

> > Thor's all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.
>
> Thor seemed more ticked about hero vs. hero than any possibility of that.

Well, given that he's never had a problem with "hero vs criminal" before, nothing much should change for him.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
seeker





>
> The What IF showed that Tony was COMPLETELY right. Go back and read the issue you are referencing.
>
> 1)It showed if Tony had not taken the reigns things would have been VASTLY worse.
>
> 2)It showed Cap did NOT have what it took to do it alone and he ended up realizing he was on the wrong side even later since Tony wasnt there.
>
> What it did show was how much things would have been better if Tony and Steve had gotten on it together and combined their talents/skills.

The reason it got so bad was due to Stark. Stark is the one who had the bright idea to try and clone Thor. Gyrich merely took it to the next logical step. That is what gave Gyrich sufficent power to become a dictator. Stark's was was less evil than Gyrich, but not that much better.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
seeker





>
> And given the plethora of knuckledragging meatheads in the superhuman community, deferring to the geniuses isn't a bad idea.
>
So those knuckledragging meatheads should defer to the likes of Dr. Doom an the Mad Thinker simply because they are geniuses?



>
> > >
> > > With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
> > He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.
>
> Cloning is beyond any such limited notions of "right" and "wrong", it is a necessary development in human evolution.
>
It is not beyond right and wrong. Few things if any thing are. So, you are saying a person can use cloning to test viruses to serve as biological weapons to wipe you millions of people merely because they are different? Would that not be wrong?


> > >
> > > Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
> >
So, without asking your permission I can clone you, use that clone to murder, destroy your reputation, and you would have no problems with it because it is my right and necessity? Thanks
>
>
> > And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.
>
> And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.
>
Parker was lucky that Riley turned good. The problems with cloning were highlighted with Kaine when Parker's life was nearly destroyed because the Jackal decided to clone Parker. The Jackal destroyed multiple lives, but according to you nothing the Jackal did was wrong. Am I understanding you correctly?



>
> > Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.
>
> No, Tony, Reed and Hank have at no point raped Thor. Yet strangely he seems angrier with Tony than with Moondragon, who actually HAS raped him.
>
The violated Thor's trust and abused their friendship and framed Thor for the death of Bill Foster. It is true the act is different than rape, but it is still a great breach of trust.

> > > > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> > >
> > > Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
> > But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!
>
Yes, cloning Thor gave Thor an incentive and justification to beat the crap out of Stark.

And no, the two things are not always different. Stark had no right to clone Thor and turn that clone into his own private weapon. He stole from Thor not only his look, but his reputation. Stark himself hates it when people do that. Why should Thor be any different?

> I'd say "bring it!", but the world needs to concentrate on cloning people of significance/importance/historical-relevance before it starts cloning some guy I met online.
>
> But once you're dead, you're fair game for cloning.
>
One, some guy online might be a person of significance. Two, once you are dead you are not fair game. Most people do not want to be remembered as monsters, but according to you if I clone you and turn that being into a monster it is okay.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Omar Karindu




> > > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > > >
> > > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > > >
> > > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > > >
> > > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> > >
> > > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
> >
> > He'd apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.
>
> What have we learned about paying attention to time-scales that comics actually give us. The Marvel Sliding Time-Scale is unlikely to ever permit as much as 8 months between House of M and Civil War.
>
> And the Hulk has enough of a history of rampaging to justify a constant "Something Must Be Done To Stop Hulk" policy, rather than a "Where do let a 3000lbs gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants" policy of appeasement that never works with any lasting effect anyway.

Of course, in order to have a Hulk comic, neither policy can ever be allowed to be effective for too long.



> > Or are you suggesting that you'd launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he'd stamp it down to Earth?
>
> That's actually a marvellously insane plan I'd love to see some genocidal nut try, but I'd pass on it myself, since it depends far too much on the Hulk doing exactly what you want him to do, which is usually unlikely at the best of times.

I'll let the Master kno -- er, yes, yes, that would be...marvelous to see.

> > > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
> >
> > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.
>
> As I'll tell the "ambassador from Latveria" (does this make him Dreadknight/Kristoff Vernard/Andro the Doomsman?), even when the Hulk has access to the full extent of Banner's scientific genius, that genius does not include any level of training in piloting alien spacecraft, least of all alien spacecraft designed for use by a not-even-sort-of-humanoid insect species. He'd need someone like Lobe writing him to make it happen.

The problem being that Banner's always been written as that sort of lunatic Reed Richards level of science-smart. He's built time-travel rays, doped out alien technology in minutes, and so on many, many times. You'll recall the Avengers Annual that had Reed, Pym, et al. marveling at the number of advances Banner had made in nearly every field of science.

He's also spent a fairly unusual amount of time off-world, and far, far more than Tony. Banner-Hulk has plenty of experience with exotic and extraterrestrial technology thanks to constantly being hijacked by aliens, hanging out with Bereet, living in K'ai, etc..

> > > If they'd actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Century: Your Alien Hero




>
> > The Illuminati failed to prevent Secret Wars 2 by telling the Beyonder to leave Earth alone, and haven't been "inserted" into any other past storylines at all, at least so far.
>
> I assumed they eluded to them doing more. Musta misunderstood posts on the series. Only ones I ever actually bought were the first of the original series and last of the.. uh.. er..last.

#1 shows them, post-Kree/Skrull war, making a botched retaliatory strike on the Skrulls.

#2 is set in recent times, pre-House of M, as the group gather the Infinity Gems in an attempt to destroy them.

#3 is set between the two Secret Wars, in a failed (and continuity-mangling) attempt to persuade the Beyonder to leave Earth alone.

#4 is also set in recent times, as the group tries to rehabilitate the new Marvel Boy.

#5 is set Right Here, Right Now, as Tony confronts the others with the corpse of Skrull Elektra.

> > I tend to think that the reason this is happening Right Here Right Now has less to do with anything humans have done to Skrulls, and more to do with Annihilus' forces crushing the Skrull empire into the dirt.
>
> It seemed that when the first Annihilation was coming out Bendis and Co had no idea what it was all about, I remember the editor for Annihilation (forget his name) posting regularly on another board (very nice fellow, handled negativity really well)and THEY didn't know what was going on in the Avengers/regular books and pretty much vice-versa. The nod then was there was no coordination between the two and Bendis' Skrull plot had been conceived completely separate from Annihilation. They really should, if they have not, tie the two together, now. If Annihilation hadn't been such a huge success they'd probably ignore it (Reed ran into Super Skrull when it all started and never seemed to care a bit that someone from the Negative Zone was attacking the universe). But as you say, it puts the Skrulls in a desperate situation and gives a lot more purpose to them. Sometimes the fans do a better job of justifying stuff than the writers. Heck, WITHOUT the Illuminati it could come to this, one Skrull agent could gather the genetic materials or whatever it was they nabbed from the Illins.

Just because these two storylines STARTED with no co-ordination, and no awareness on Bendis' part, in no way prevents them from now inserting a couple of lines into Secret Invasion to reference that Annihilation happened, and is the Skrull motivation for doing this Right Now, does it?

> > > Remember kids, The EIC of Marvel says that smoking is bad, divorce is bad, but Satanic Pacts are A-OK!
> >
> > Well, yeah, clearly The Devil is less-worse than smoking, or marriage. Shouldn't you be picking on "heroes" who think it's OK to make deals with The Devil, over supergeniuses trying to do what's best for the world?
>
> Nah, I only like picking on the real people in my sigs \:\) I still Think Pete needs to burn in Heck for what he decided,

I just cannot work my mind around the idea that anyone at Marvel honestly believes "superhero makes deal with the Devil" is an acceptable way to go about a Major Event for the character. Or that they're that pig-ignorant that we're just supposed to move on and forget any of it ever happened, ignoring that in any such Faustian bargain, THE DEVIL DOESN'T PLAY FAIR.

If this was clearly being marked as the opening of a larger saga, sure, fair enough. But it's not. It's clearly supposed to be "a necessary evil which we won't ever mention again, so the books can just move onwards backwards".

> and Reed and Stark need to get force fed some humble pie.

Stark's been force-fed beatings from anti-registration knuckleheads for the past year, probably has another coming from the Tension-Sheet-Hulk, and it hasn't stopped making him right.

> Actually it looks like McDuffie baked some up for his last issue of FF coming out next week.

I still prefer Millar's straight-up "Reed is pro-registration because he just believes it's right" over JMS and McDuffie's two different "excuses" for why he's doing it but doesn't like it.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




> > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > >
> > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > >
> > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > >
> > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> >
> > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
> >
> > > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
> >
> > Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
> >
> > Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.
>
> Ah, but I don't, and neither do you or anyone else. I live on a planet where it's fun to read stories about Hulk smashing stuff. And that makes all the difference.

While I'm preferring to approach this thread from the point-of-view of the people actually in the Marvel Universe, in that respect, the Illuminati launching Hulk into space gave us readers the best Hulk saga in many a year in the form of Planet Hulk/World War Hulk. So as far as our entertainment-value goes, we should be thanking them.

> > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
>
> Considering that he's had access to Banner's intellect for something like half his published existence at this point, those odds are pretty damned good. It's not as if Tony, Reed, et al. had never encountered the Professor and Grey Hulks, for instance; for that matter, if they'd done even a seconds' worth of research they'd have worked out that the Hulk they were exiling was one fo the intelligent variations and might've modified their plan accordingly.

I went through this in my reply to Somebody below, and...hey, you responded there, too. I still think that no matter what he's done in the past, the chances of any Hulk incarnation managing to pilot the spacecraft of insect-people from an anti-matter universe is incredibly remote, though.

> None of which makes them wrong, let alone lays the blame for what happened next on them,

> In any case, as fun and maybe even satisfying as it is to argue that Tony et al. were right, even you had to know that exiling the Hulk was going to set up some sort of "Hulk returns, beats down the Illuminati plot right from the start. That's just how superhero comics work; Tony Stark was always going to be pounded on so that Hulk fans could cheer, the question was merely how Marvel would get us back to that point.

Well, obviously. But do we really want any of the characters to display that level of "I know I'm in a comic" self-awareness of the "rules" of how things work? That would suck the entertainment value out of it all.

For us readers, yes, the Hulk's return was inevitable. From the Illuminati's point of view, this really had a strong chance of working, and even if it went kind-of wrong in the way it did, still left a solid chance that Hulk would never get home, so we can't really say they were wrong to try, nor that they had to know he'd come back.

> In any case, I disagree in one respect: there's someone even righter for running the MU than Tony, and that's the bloke I quote in my signature. (Hint: not John Seavey.)

I know I would willingly give up "freedom to oppose Doom" in exchange for him saving the world from itself, and bringing an end to war/famine/crime, but he really would create the kind of "fascist police state" environment that nay-sayers like to claim The Initiative is. Although from the point of view that the vast majority of humanity flat-out NEEDS to be made to sit down/shut up/behave, maybe Doom is what we all need.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
1 2  >> All

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2022 Powermad Software