I haven't read the issue yet, but I got the spoilers over at CBR...

Sounds like the war ended with all of Alpha Flight, as well as Yellowjacket (Rita) and Swordsman (the original) back from the dead permanently. Yay!

So I guess you win some and you lose some. You lose the newly(temporarily) dead member of the Fantastic Four, but gain back YJII, AF and Swordsman. Can't say I care much about Swordsman's return, and I think they missed a great opportunity to bring back Vision, but still - color me happy!

Didn't see any referece on which dead X-Men might have returned.

That's great news! I'd like to see Rita involved with the Thunderbolts, given her former membership in the Masters of Evil.

Was it stated for certain that Deathcry was killed? I was holding out a little hope that Nekra was wrong about having done her in.


So, Avengers fairly recently returned to the land of the living:

Swordsman1
Yellowjacket2
Marrina
Hercules
Captain America
Quasar
Jim Hammond
Mockingbird
Hawkeye
Moondragon
Gilgamesh
Hellcat
Ms Marvel (who was "dead" for such a short amount of time it hardly counts)
Jocasta
Valkyrie (not an Avenger until after being brought back, but still)
Bucky (same situation)
Lionheart (she died in her origin story)


That's quite a list. I'm not sure how many years of stories I'm including there. Who did I leave out?

Jack of Hearts has been shown in previews. And surely Nova won't stay gone long. I certainly hope not.





The Vision is the easiest one to bring back without some big plot device. It's more unrealistic for me that they *haven't* fixed him.

Maybe they're waiting for Ultron to do it.



It's a shame they left Puck out when they revived the Alpha Flight team. Seems like Sasquatch would have included everybody in his deal with the Great Beasts.

It will be interesting to see if Marrina resumes her relationship with Namor.
It will be nice to see Hawkeye's reaction to the Swordsman being alive.
It will also be interesting to see Tony's reaction to Rita being alive again.

Michael

Even nice to see Mantis' reaction to her former lover's return, and for Swordsman to see his biological son Sequoia ("Quoi") for the first time!

well body easily repaired but he need to wonder man's brain if he become fully vision or he will come to land of living in children crusade i supose







he is currently in wolverine in hell storyline

The guy who killed her by ripping her head off so he could throw it at Osborn? She should tear him a new one, not go back to him.

According to Emma, there was nothing left of the real Marrina in there- she was just Osborn's puppet. If Emma was right, then it was arguably an act of mercy.

Michael

Van Lente posted on twitter about Yellowjacket and Swordsman here:
http://twitter.com/fredvanlente/status/30498882488111104
Alpha Flight came back but Yellowjacket and Swordsman are still dead. That could have been a lot more clear in the story.

Michael

Even before that, with her first "death", where she ended up in some kind of brain-damaged coma, she became completely savage after the birth of her children. Some sort of genetically preprogrammed switch that the Plodex have built-in, as I understand it.

After sub-sequent brain-damaged coma and "treatment" by Master of the World, and intense experimentation in order to aggravate and revive her, by Osborn, there wasn't likely that she had many higher brain-functions left.

It's not even very plausible that she would have more than a few garbled and confusing memories of her death. So I'm going to go with Michael here, Namors killing of her was an act of mercy.

Who would like to go on living as something like that?? Not only was her personality gone, but she had even become a very real and lethal threat to those she loved.

I'm going with Michael on this one.

It would depend on whether or not his "hard drive" is damaged this time around. Surely he's got one!








I'm not up on that story. What's Puck's involvement? Are they saying he went to Hell when he died?

I could almost accept it was an act of mercy if what followed was a funeral/burial conducted with dignity and respect as befits the beloved wife of the Prince of the Seas. Instead what followed was the repeated desecration of her corpse, including dismemberment and weaponizing her disembodied head. After he threw her head at Osborn he smirked about it in a self-congratulatory manner. It turned her murder into a game of one-upmanship with a psycho. No, I'll be angry about that scene forever, and it reduced my opinion of Namor to the point where I can't see him as anything but a villain.

well in wca he dissambled they need to wonderman's brain but he refused for selfish he wanted wanda for himself for this reason so he became emotionless vision







he went hell for his past sins he helped logan fight to devil

Yeah, didn't Tony kind of kill her at the beginning of THE CROSSING?

Way back then though, the government intentionally erased his memories and programming. That was part of their goal, because he'd been in control of the entire world's computers when he tried to take over, and they saw him as a threat.

This time, he merely got torn in half. Wait a second. Did I say "merely"? He really did get trashed. But who knows where physically in his body that his data is stored? Or how durable that portion is. It could go either way.

If I were Vizh, after what happened before, I'd back myself up somehow. Somewhere there's a safety deposit box registered to a Victor Shade that needs to be discovered!


Actually, now that you mention Simon being needed, it would make for a great character moment for Simon to spearhead getting the Vision put back together, and then this time he'd step up and give his brain patterns. It could help make up for him not doing it that other time.









Thanks. Neat panel there.

Hopefully, he'll come back too, because Alpha Flight isn't Alpha Flight without Puck.

I always agreed with Simon's choice not to donate his brainwaves back in AWC. His brainwaves were used to create the Vision's personality without his permission the first time...to me it would be about the same as stealing sperm from a freshly dead corpse and later use it to create a baby. It's a violation and Wanda was wrong to ask it of Simon.

Simon was Vision's friend but it's not his burden to submit to having his brainwaves copied so Vision can live again.


The super hero community these days just has no sense of boundaries. You have time traveling brats whining about how their parents never loved them enough and taking it out on their parents before the time travelers were even born. You have clones or alternate reality dopplegangers living with your mom in Smallville eating up all her food and probably not paying any bills. You have whiney wives begging for your brainwaves so they can reanimate their android husbands. You have crazy women artificially inseminating themselves with their dead lovers dna and then rapidly aging their offspring so they can have someone to talk to.


Just because you're a hero doesn't mean people have a right to violate you or blame you for crap you haven't even done yet.

Reverend Meteor (every week at least one hero you know has been violated, usually by someone they know and trust)

I've always thought it was an interesting storyline for Simon to feel the way he did. Differing points of view create better stories than the usual good vs evil. But his decision didn't match up with how he and the Vision had been interacting as if they were brothers prior to that. They even were hanging out with Simon's mother at one point. So while I like the plot twist, he did come off as selfish there.

The reason I think he would act differently this time is that he's really upset by what happened with Wanda. And, as it is written currently, (I phrase it that way since I'm anxious for a retcon), Wanda has been nuts ever since the Byrne WCA run, when her kids dissapeared and her husband was erased.





It depends on if you see the Vision as a person or not. What if Cap needed an ionic buzz to stay alive, and the only thing that would save him was a hug from Simon, who refused?





LOL! I think that last bit is why Genis and Phyla didn't stick as Captain Marvel. Their origins were just so odd.

Selfish or not I thought it was his decision to make and he made the one comfortable for him. I don't think he did anything wrong...and I say that as someone who has never liked Simon.










I guess I see it as something like the perception of being obligated to donate your kidney to a brother. It may make you a douchebag not to give it to him but your brother's wife doesn't have the right to demand you give it to your brother. Maybe you don't like your brother, maybe you want to bang his wife, maybe you don't want to lose a kidney in case the other one goes bad...whatever your reason doesn't matter. If you say you're not giving him the kidney that should be the end of it. It's your kidney.







I hate Elysius. She violated her dead lover's memory and had a child that just shouldn't exist and then she steals Genis childhood. Evil skank.

Between Genis origin and seeing he planned to murder his and Songbird's future son as an infant in his crib I don't care for the character. The gods granted my wish though when he was murdered by my favorite charscter Baron Helmut Zemo. I don't have qualms with Phyla yet but I would love for Helmut to finish off Elysius too.

Once the Vision got his groove back, did he and Simon ever have a conversation about this refusal thing specifically? I do remember the Vision getting upset in a Busiek issue about being "just a copy" of Simon and briefly taking it out on him.






My only exposure to Genis is from Avengers Forever and then when he was in the Thunderbolts, so I never gave all this much thought. But you're right. It's pretty twisted.






Phyla is dead. For now. Killed by Thanos. Supposedly. I don't believe DnA intended to leave her that way, if in fact she was meant to really be dead at all.

Genis was a bad fit in the Thunderbolts. Sure, he'd gone insane and been a villain for a while, but he didn't really match the T-Bolts profile.

What do you think about Songbird as an Avenger? I think she deserves a shot.

The difference is that donating a kidney carries with it an element of risk.




I'm curious- how do you feel about Namora? She used an unstable cloning process to give birth to Namorita but nobody ever called her on it after she came back from the dead, even though Nita had to suffer through some painful transformations as a result.




You don't have any qualms with Phyla. What about the fact that she dated a rapist?

Michael

To me Vision has kind of been a pod person since Byrne dismantled him.







For some reason Elysius creating Genis always reminded me of Gargamel creating Smurfette.










I hated him on Tbolts.




Yes. I used to be a fan of hers when she was with Mach-1/Abe Jenkins. That's another reason I think I hated Genis...his fated romance with Melissa.

She deserves it...I can't imagine her staying an Avenger long term but it should happen. To me once one of the founding Thunderbolts becomes an Avenger (not a dark avenger like Karla) that means their redemption theme has finally come full circle. Once one has gotten the heights Hawkeye did and became an Avenger then the Thunderbolts journey towards redemption was a worthy endeavor.

Here's the problem and I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on it. It was Simon's choice whether to donate his brainwaves in Byrne's run. He wasn't given the choice the first time and it resulted in a new life (Vision) being created against his will. Simon may have liked the Vision. He might have been closer to him than his own brother. But at the end of the day it was Simon's choice whether he gives his brainwaves over to bring someone back to life. That's not the Vision's choice or Wanda's choice. It's Simon's because they're his brainwaves.

Don't use the kidney example if that makes you happy. Let's say you had a brother who couldn't have kids and his wife asked you for a sperm donation so they could have a kid who is genetically related to your brother. If you say no that's your right because it's your sperm. You're the one who has to deal with knowing you helped create this life and all the bizarre things and social situations that come along with it.

I think Simon had every right to draw the line and say no. Fine he's a jerk who is love with the Vision's wife...but you can't tell me Wanda was too dense to know this and then she asks this of Simon? Bah. And why did Vision get dismantled in the first place...because the people who dismantled him wanted to prevent him from taking over the world's computers again.

Boundaries. Everyone has them and everyone needs them. Simon had one. Wanda crossed it. Then again this is the Avengers the same group who practically threw Carol a baby shower when she was raped, impregnated and gave birth within 3 days. They may lack certain social skills.







I HATE Namora. But Namorita is my all time favorite female comic book character with the possible exception of Moonstone.

I had become a Nita fan from her appearances in New Warriors...the clone retcon came a couple years after she was already in the Warriors if memory serves. And I also liked Ben Reilly who was a clone better than the original.

Clones I can kind of deal with. Elysius impregnating herself with the dna of her dead lover though creeps me out more than anything any super villain has ever done.









If you had asked me if I had a problem with Moondragon that would have made sense. Peter Parker once smacked his wife but I don't hate Gwen Stacy or Felicia Hardy for it. And though this conversation is beyond the scope of this board I'm the sexist pig who doesn't think women can rape a grown man even if they do have mind control powers. The male anatomy wants what it wants.

As for Phyla I guess she is one step removed than Genis. She only exists because if memory serves Genis rebooted the timeline so she got a hand me down origin that was just like Genis's. If I'm being honest...I am completely and utterly indifferent to Phyla. She has never done anything to make me like or dislike her in the slightest. She's just there.

Dead Avengers reminded me how much I miss the character.






Gargamel created Smurfette??? How? Is she a sleeper agent just waiting on a trigger phrase that will cause her to slit Papa Smurf's throat?










Yeah. I really wanted Abe and Melissa to be together.

One thing we haven't gotten in Marvel comics in a while are slow, gradual romantic storylines where the writing makes us *want* the characters together. There's a ton of hooking up going on, but it's all out of nowhere and purely sexual.

Which would be fine occasionally, if it were ever characters I wanted to be together! Instead of Hawkeye and She-Hulk, we get Hawkeye and everybody else.

There have also been way too many retconned revelations of relationships. Like Sentry and Crystal. Or the White Queen and just about everybody. Even the consistently innocent acting in all her prior appearances Squirrel Girl can't escape it.





Whenever she gets her Avengers ID card, some writer who hasn't even read the original T-Bolts run will have her pick up her cell phone and tell Zemo, "I'm finally in. What do you want me to do?"

Or worse, instead of Zemo, it will be the Hood, retconned to be her *real* lover. And we'll tear the comic in half.

Yes she was created by Gargamel from clay as a spy designed to spread disharmony in smurf village. Only through the redemptive power of communism did she find acceptance. Her hair was originally black.

I don't think girl Smurfs are naturally occurring. Gargamel created Smurfette. The Smurflings created Sassette. Which raises the question of who created Granny Smurf but I guess that's a dark chapter of the smurf mythology we will never know. Maybe Papa Smurf and Grandpa Smurf got drunk on smurf berry juice and dabbled in the dark magics.










oh that's a great point. Yeah that was my problem...I liked the love story between Melissa and Abner.

There aren't many couples these days that are romantic or feel authentic.

Luke and Jessica's romance in the comics started with anal sex.




Just wait until we find about that one night in college when Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom had way too much to drink and Doom got frisky.




That's why I will never like Sentry or Jessica Jones. They're clearly Space Phantoms. When things don't make sense...space phantoms.








continuity be damned...I would LOVE that!!!!

If we had to respect continuity you could always have Helmut working towards some greater good while manipulating the Avengers...I love when he's a manipulator for the greater good.

Somehow I'm not thinking they'll deal with this in the upcoming movie. Maybe in the Smurfs: First Class prequel that will come out later featuring Azazel instead of Azrael.







At some point, Mach1 *must* have a child so that they can call it Li'l Abner Jenkins.





A good pairing takes time. You need flirting first. You need some pining away for each other. Maybe some foiled attempts. Or a complication keeping them apart. Nobody writes romance for the long haul any more, maybe because they have no confidence about how long they'll be on the book. Or if their title will even exist after 12 issues. All we get now usually is the shock moment of seeing two people together unexpectedly and the fallout. It's wham bam, thank you maam. Or no thank you.

Plus a lot of the pairings that used to feel authentic from back in the day, like Justice and Firestar, have been broken up. Cyclops/Phoenix. Peter/Mary Jane. Vision/Scarlet Witch...

I enjoyed the brief Nova/Nita rekindling that went on recently, and I was on pins and needles that she wasn't going to survive the resolution of the Cancerverse thing. It didn't occur to me that Nova wouldn't.







I know! And that was back when she was an interesting character to me. Those two married bores me to death! It doesn't ring true for them to be some big love thing. They were just friends who would occasionally hook up when she was drunk and feeling needy. IIRC, the only reason she dumped Scott Lang was because it wasn't his baby. She and Cage could have raised their kid together without becoming the new "it" couple.

Jessica Jones is unrecognizable now from the screwed up person she was in Alias. She was cool as a screwed up person. That was the whole POINT of her. Without that, she has no reason to exist. Give me somebody else to read about.






Maybe that's when he first got the name Mister Fantastic!









I don't mind the Sentry being made to have existed. I liked him fine from his original mini, just like I thought Jessica was good in Alias. But then, don't beat us over the head with them and make them the focus of EVERYTHING. They're retconnned characters! By definition, they're not as important as real characters with real history, at least not to the fans.

And geez. If you're going to bother with it, have a plan in mind and do a good character arc. The Senty was a long, drawn out, unsatisying, confusing, ridiculous mess. I have no idea what his true history is supposed to even BE at this point, nor do I care.


Retcons should also be kept to a minimum. Nowadays, half the big plot devolopments that come around are retcons.









I was typing that sarcastically and then part of me had the same reaction. I had to switch it to her being an agent of the Hood to hate it.







Zemo vs Osborn during the Dark Reign could have been fantastic.

If Songbirds mission is to get Wolverine off the team, I would definitely get behind it!

That whole seen should not have been possible because Marin had been dead for years. Namor stabbed her with Black Knight's Ebony Blade decades ago.