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Author
Jazzyduke




Hey folks.....

For years I've heard that the Avengers, weren't the Avengers of old....that these Bendis Avengers were an All Star team...but without the heart of the past.

I will agree with that to a point....but I've enjoyed the progression of the Avengers with Bendis. It's nice to have Spidey on the team. Luke Cage has surprised me with how much I like him. Wolverine is admitted extraneous, and stretched thin timewise....but I don't mind.

I do enjoy the classic runs of the past. Shooter/Perez, Stern/Buscema, Busiek/Perez,Davis,Dwyer.....but I'm glad for Bendis bring the Avengers to the forefront of the Marvel Universe. Like it or not, Bendis saved the Avengers from being a 2nd tier title for some time to come at least.

My favorite storyline was the Hood's saga. Thought that was very interesting. I am however tired of Osborn and his Hammer friends.

Looking forward to the future!


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MysteryMan





    Quote:
    Hey folks.....



    Quote:
    For years I've heard that the Avengers, weren't the Avengers of old....that these Bendis Avengers were an All Star team...but without the heart of the past.



    Quote:
    I will agree with that to a point....but I've enjoyed the progression of the Avengers with Bendis. It's nice to have Spidey on the team. Luke Cage has surprised me with how much I like him. Wolverine is admitted extraneous, and stretched thin timewise....but I don't mind.



    Quote:
    I do enjoy the classic runs of the past. Shooter/Perez, Stern/Buscema, Busiek/Perez,Davis,Dwyer.....but I'm glad for Bendis bring the Avengers to the forefront of the Marvel Universe. Like it or not, Bendis saved the Avengers from being a 2nd tier title for some time to come at least.



    Quote:
    My favorite storyline was the Hood's saga. Thought that was very interesting. I am however tired of Osborn and his Hammer friends.



    Quote:
    Looking forward to the future!


...that era that I just loved the stories AND the members on the team...like

1)Iron Man...overall leader/long term planner and tech guy..Brains of the team

2)Thor...powerhouse,never say die attitude...Soul and in some ways glue of the team when the heart and brain dont agree

3)Captain America...tactical in battle leader...Teams Heart

The big 3 should always be the center of the team and in their absence their roles should only temporarily be picked up by another

4) & 5) Vision and Scarlet Witch...the lovers that overcame impossible odds to be together

6) & 7) Beast and Wonderman...the buddies of the team (like Booster Gold and Blue Beetle)

8) & 9) Yellow Jacket and Wasp...ill-fated lovers that never seem to find peace but always end up finding each other

10) Black Panther and Hawkeye round out the old team

...classic stories I loved...however I always did want more women on the team for a balanced prespective so I wanted added those like

Ms. Marvel
She-Hulk
a reformed Amora/Enchantress...maybe a return to her Idunn days?
Sersi was ok
Sharon Carter in a support role
Jean Grey (just to mess with Scott with the current fighting...lol)
a new heroine


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DCR


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,861


The only true Avengers team was the one existing before Stan Lee had this stupid idea to insert Purple Arrow, Flash Wannabe and some mutant witch in the team.

The Avengers are supposed to be the Earth Mightiest Heroes, not a rehability program for lame X-Men and Iron Man villains!

I have no problem with a comics featuring those characters, as long as they name it the Thunderbolts, not the Avengers.





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:
    The only true Avengers team was the one existing before Stan Lee had this stupid idea to insert Purple Arrow, Flash Wannabe and some mutant witch in the team.



    Quote:
    The Avengers are supposed to be the Earth Mightiest Heroes, not a rehability program for lame X-Men and Iron Man villains!



    Quote:
    I have no problem with a comics featuring those characters, as long as they name it the Thunderbolts, not the Avengers.


Well you Avengers fan have stolen our Thunderbolts book away from us
\:\)







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Yo


Member Since: Tue Mar 20, 2012


However, I can do with long periods w/o the big three...coming only to deal with the real big battles. That will make them more impresive...
And Wanda a Vision in the roster together again..??. I will buy two copies of each issues ;\)



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Methuselah




I haven't read comics regularly in awhile (last regular run I read on the book was Busiek), so I'm not really a target audience or part of a group they should look to when building a team.

That said, I always liked the teams that consisted of one or (preferably) two of the big 3 - Cap, IM and Thor. Then add a couple of what I consider to be iconic members -maybe 3 or four out of Hawkeye, Wasp, one of the Pym identities, Vision, SW, Wonderman, Panther, Photon, Quicksilver, She Hulk. Beast.

Then add one or two characters new to the team or new in general or who were with the team in the past but underused (I'm thinking people like Ice Man, Angel, Firebird, Herc, maybe Black Knight or Falcon or some newly introduced characters.

I think there should be a division of "types" one heavy hitter (maybe 2 if one flies and one doesn't), a couple of energy based flyers. One or two "growing/shrinking" based powers. A couple of "unusual" powers (i.e.: Wand, Hawkeye, etc.)

One team that I think I would have read a mini series or trade on was the future/after the Badoon wiped out most of the planet's population team. Panther, Thundra, Jocasta, Killraven, Crimson Dynamo andy Living Lightning.




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Ron Burgundy




I think you can look at Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes to see how the book should be written. The Avengers should be a team, not an abstract concept that it seems to be now. Who are The Avengers? Who qualifies? Even though I become a reader during the New Avengers time, I wish that I would have come in sooner. I would love to be getting shorter story arcs, with larger over-arching subplots being intertwined in between. I think Spider-man and Avengers Academy are currently being written fantastically. One author, multiple artists , in order to get the book out more than once a month. It has gotten to the point to where big events are ruining the flow of the book. Instead of the Avengers being about character interactions, and treating the team as a family, the book is just a showcase of whatever villian they want to use, when they even have a villian. Lets look at the first 26 issues of this run.

1-6 = ultron. totally forgettable story with no character moments or even a memorable final battle with the villian.

7-12 = hood/infinity gems. too many characters and nobody got any focus or attention that they deserved. this story had a lot of potential, and couldve changed some status quo around, but instead, the hood goes back to jail, the gems go back to being hidden, and cap takes black bolts place in the illuminati.

13-17 = fear itself. bunch of single issues stories, which can be great if entertaining, but these were not. Perhaps if they had not been shoe-horned into the event, then maybe they could have been good, but with the whole talking heads gimmick, and the unclear continuity, these issues felt incredibly boring.

18-23 = osborn round 9. I liked this story, and this actually seemed like a story where many different subplots came together and there was a satisfying conclusion. The problem is that all these sub-plots were happening in New Avengers, so for those of us who only read the main title didn't have those to build off on. I would actually consider this the best arc of the current run.

24-present = phoenix. once again the main title is forced to deal with these big events. These are some of the worst issues Ive ever read for the avengers. Not only is book about a completely different team, who has its own book, this book completely ignores everything going on in the teams main title. Even if this lack of continuity wasnt there, this story feels rushed and sloppy, and ill-thought out. It seemes like Bendis wanted something to happen in the end, and didnt really care how he got there


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christian




The 'old' Avengers was the team that had a stable roster, before someone at Marvel thought it would be great if they just piled on any Marvel character that came along. If you look at the title between issue 1 and issue 200, they had 14 consistent members. Or 21 if you count members who only showed up in less than six issues(like Hulk, Black Knight, or Black Widow). How many characters have been Avengers since then? Marvel has put just about everyone on the team. The Avengers have no standards whatsoever. Moon Knight, Sersi, Doctor Druid....these characters are NOBODIES. What are they doing on a team like the Avengers? Their presence weakened the Avengers' titles, and drove a second string writer like Bendis to try and 'fix' the team by copying the Justice League.

So, people who lament for the days of the 'old' Avengers, are talking about a stable team(that lasts 200 issues, not 12). A team of heroes made up of characters that most FANS(as opposed to delusional execs at Marvel) want to see as Avengers: Cap, Thor, Ironman, the Pyms, Hawkeye, Pietro and Wanda, Hercules, Black Panther, Vision, Wonderman, Ms. Marvel. And I wouldn't look unfavorably at She-Hulk, Beast(for God sakes, the SIMIAN version of Hank McCoy) and Spiderman(if he's portrayed the same as his character was between AS volume 1 #224-250) on the team too.

But I won't hold my breath. To revert to that team would be an admission of failure on the part of Quesada. I suspect I won't be buying another Avengers comic until the man is no longer working at Marvel.


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TJ Burns





Spider-Man getting out of his own title ghetto and actually joining the team regularly is the best part of the Bendis run. I'm actually not one of those people that think that expanding the roster's a bad idea, myself, but utlizing more Avengers mainstays, dealing with classic Avengers foes, and letting the personalities on the team shine more is neccessary. As is the actual "gathered together to oppose enemies no single hero can withstand" part of being Avengers. The Hood? Should have lasted about thirty seconds against the REAL Avengers.


TJB


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JWC




By missing the "old Avengers," I mean not-so-much specific characters (although there are, of course, those), as a "feeling," an idea of what the Avengers are.

In the past, the group has always been a close-knit team of allies, with none of the regular members feeling superfluous. The Big Three were there, usually in various combinations, to provide direction and authority. Since they had there own titles, however, little of their personal lives played out in the Avengers; Wanda, Hawkeye, Vision, Simon, Carol, and others fulfilled that function. There was a happy balance.

The team's relationship to the public and to government fluctuated, but has been important part of the title's concept since the beginning. They've been affiliated with the U.S. government, with the U.N., with SHIELD. They've gone rogue and they've been disbanded. But we always knew where they stood.

Sometimes, granted, characters were given membership that probably shouldn't have been. I'm bit referring to certain B-listers who are sometimes disparaged like Tigra or Moon Knight or Quasar, so much as those who were never developed as Avengers, never really served: Machine Man, D-Man, Hellcat, Darkhawk. They may have been as great for the title as Hawkeye or Vision, but writers never really used them.

Since Disassembled, the spirit of the Avengers has been sadly diluted. There are three teams, not counting Academy, but what really differentiates them? Luke's team should be a street level team, but they seem to deal with cosmic and mystic threats as readily as Cap's Avengers. The Secret Avengers don't seem to do much that's really all that secret, or much that either of the other team's couldn't do. What's the point? At least in the days of a New York and a California team the responsibilities were distinct and understood.

How many people have been made Avengers since Disassembled? Off the top of my head: Luke Cage, Wolverine, Spider Woman, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, Sentry, Ares, Valkyrie, Ant-man III, Jessica Jones, Protector, Red Hulk, Storm, Bucky, Echo (who,you might well ask), Daredevil, Stature, Amadeus Cho, young Vision, Quake, Flash-Venom, and Captain Britain. Whew. And I'm not even certain about Nova, Shang-chi, Brother Voodoo, Prince of Orphans, Squirrel Girl, or the various liasons (Sharon, Maria, Victoria). How many of these have received much characterization or plotline in the last decade? Cage a bit, maybe. Sentry was a convulted mess. Bendis himself can't seem to keep track if Noh-varr is from this reality (as suggested in AvX) or another one (as previousy established). Spider Woman could have been given some plot, but other than some smooching with Clint, she has contributed less then nothing in 10 years. Quake might well be the lamest character ever created.

Since Disassembled, there has also been a tendency to recapitulate storylines: we get two incarnations of Dark Avengers, three power sources for the Hood (Mephisto, Norn Stones, Infinity Gems), the repeated destruction of Avengers Tower, the mimicing of Stamford with the attack at Soldier's Field, and on and on. I'm also not crazy about the tendency of characters like Wolverine, Spider-man, the Thing, and others to serve on multiple teams at the same time. There are plenty of characters to go around, many great ones under-utilized: Photon, Falcon, Wonder Man, She-hulk, Hercules, Black Knight, Crystal. Ten years ago, maybe Bendis or Quesada could make an argument that Spider-man would help boost Avengers sales. After a blockbuster movie in which the only spider character around was a woman, that probably isn't true anymore (if it ever was...I've always contended that you improve a book's sales by improving a book's stories, not just by throwing popular characters into the pot).

I wish Hickman well, but he's inheriting a mess.

My own wish: do away with New Avengers. Give us one primary team consisting of: Captain America, Thor, Ironman, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel (Carol), She-Hulk, Spider Woman, Beast, and Captain Britain. Make the Secret Avengers a real espionage book, featuring Hawkeye, Black Widow, Mockingbird, Iron Fist, Ant-man, Moon Knight, Arachne, and Shroud. Let Wolverine focus on his school; Dr. Strange reconstruct the Defenders; Luke lead the Thunderbolts; Thing stay in the FF. The Protector and the Red Hulk should just be written off as bad ideas. Giant-man, Tigra, and Quicksilver should stay with the Academy, easily the best Avengers title on the market. Perhaps Firebird or a few other Avengers-past could be used as faculty.

It's all wishful thinking, I know; but a decade into the current mess and I haven't given up, yet.

JWC






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Ktang




1. We are in the era TPBs and mega-crossover events. The reult is a constant "state of change". Change has always refreshed the team. However, now there is little more than change.

2. The original concept was to put the solo stars into a team book. This seems long forgotten. We had two,and only two, monthly chances to see our faves in action.How many times can we see Wolvie, Spidey, Cap, Storm??? 3,45? This makes the title LESS special.

ex: Any char on 2 con-current teams is unacceptable IMHO.
Imagine this 1963 team: Sgt.Fury, Iceman, Thing, DumDumDugan, MarvelGirl, Invisible Girl...sounds riduculous and superfluous.

3. Too many teams? Not when using the Avengers/WCA model.
"Separate But Equal"
a. Each team has its own Big three
b. Crossover ONLY once a year
c. Unique chars + unique storylines = unique teams.
ex: I can read more than three issues of Academy and know that changes are consistent within the title.

4. Team size. I prefer 7, limit to 8.
Currently*: Av=12; SA=12; NA=11(SquirrelGirl=12);AvAssemble=6**
*Wikipedia(yes,Cap counted 4 times)
** reluctanlty have to give AAssemble a pass since it's 100% marketing.


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FirstChAoS




When I mean the old avengers this is what I mean.

the old team from when they felt heroic and mighty.

I don't think the team NEEDS the big three (though at least one of the core nine of thor, cap, ironman, hawkeye, pym, wasp, vision, scarlet witch, and wonderman helps) after all their are many minor avengers I like.

But I read bendvengers until a couple issues after civil war (for new/basic) and until the end of the ultron arc for mighty and quit as I hated it.

What I mean is the tone of the book. Back when big threats were taken down and the team didn't struggle with minor foot soldier nuisances like ninjas. Yes, seeing experienced avengers struggling against hand henchmen of the kind they usually plow through to reach the main villain felt weak.

Back when they felt like a team who can work together, some characters never meshed but that was life, but it wasn't like everyone hated each other back then. The worst for this was mighty where Bendis used thought bubbles for the characters to insult each other making it feel as if everyone hates each other.

Back when conversations moved forward a story or plot and were not verbal filler.

What do I mean by verbal filler? This. (I am doing it with a secret invasion feel but Bendis does this on any topic).

CHARACTER ONE: Oh no she's a skrull!

CHARACTER TWO: A skrull!

CHARACTER THREE: She's a skrull?

CHARACTER ONE: Yes a skrull.

CHARACTER TWO: If she is a skrull how do I know you're not a skrull

CHARACTER THREE: I am NOT a skrull

CHARACTER ONE: That is just what a skrull would say

CHARACTER TWO: so any of us can be a skrull?

CHARACTER THREE: any of us?

CHARACTER ONE: yes any of us!

CHARACTER TWO: You can all be skrulls

CHARACTER THREE: How can you tell which of us is a skrull?

CHARACTER ONE: You can't that's what makes them bad, and only a skrull will divide us like that

CHARACTER TWO: Yeah, I bet you're a skrull!

CHARACTER THREE: How do I know if I am a skrull?

CHARACTER ONE: you don't know? Only a skrull would be confused like that

CHARACTER TWO: Yes you skrull

CHARACTER THREE: I am NOT a skrull, you must be skrulls

CHARACTER ONE: Said the person who was unsure if he was a skrull

CHARACTER TWO: you could be a skrull

CHARACTER THREE: yes, i bet he is one

CHARACTER ONE: I am not a skrull two is the skrull

CHARACTER TWO: i am not a skrull

CHARACTER THREE: if only we could tell who is a skrull

Now continue this conversation page after page for three issues with no progress gained towards finding who is a skrull or what the skrulls are planning. That is Bendis filler chat and I find it annoying as hell. It is conversation that serves no purpose other than to take up space and it goes nowhere.







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lornelb




Lots of interestingthoughts on the Avengers and the preferred teams.

I have been reading and collecting comics for 40 years with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four having been the constants throughout that time period.

I've never been particularly locked into any set of Avengers, it was laways more important to me that whichever Avengers were used be portrayed interestingly and that the storylines be engrossing.

I'll admit, too, that I've always been a character driven reader. That is probably why Hawkeye has always been one of my favorite Avengers. His character has usually been portrayed as cocky, hardnosed and humorous, things which are like catnip to me.

I've noticed that most of the previous preferred line-ups have included Wonderman/Simon. I can also admit that I've never really liked his portrayals. He began as a foil for Zemo to infiltrate that Avengers. He had a change of heart and died heroically. He should have stayed that way, as far as I'm concerned. Since his revival, he's been at turns; cowardly, self-absorbed, a homewrecker, and lately, a maniac bent on destroying the Avengers (The fact that his rationale is strained and inane doesn't help). His buddy/buddy act with the Beast may have been the highlight of his appearances with the Avengers andthat has been @ 35 years ago.

Finally, no one has selected the Thing as a member of the Avengers and I tend to agree with that. Ben is far and away my single most beloved Marvel/comic book creation. He used to embody every single thing I loved about what I considered to be a great comicbook character. He was formidable, terrifying when he had to be, incredibly funny, and completely heroic in the truest since of the word. That incarnation of Ben is many years gone now. With the advent of Wolverine and the different adjustments to the Hulk's portrayal, all that remains of Ben Grimm is a clownish foil to be humiliated or beaten up by any characer boasting the strength to string a couple of one-handed push ups together. In the Avengers, this portrayal is only exacerbated. With the presence of Hawkeye and Spiderman, Ben is no longer the funny character. With Wolverine and the Red Hulk, he is unable to be the "go to" tough guy, or the scary 'ticking time bomb' member that the other teammates need to be wary of. Instead, he is given little to do, very few lines, and usually ends up being brushed aside and knocked unconcsious by some villain named the Purple Pantywaist until one of the more formidible or glamorous team members can dispatch the bad guy.

The truth for me is that one of Bendis' strengths is his ability to create characterization through dialogue. Stan Lee is the only other writer that I can recall whose dialogue managed to entertain and divert me so well through the reading of a given comic.

Old Avengers or new, give me crackling dialogue, Hawkeye and no watered down versions of Ben Grimm, please.


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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,103


I loved this post and agree with every word.


    Quote:
    By missing the "old Avengers," I mean not-so-much specific characters (although there are, of course, those), as a "feeling," an idea of what the Avengers are.



    Quote:
    In the past, the group has always been a close-knit team of allies, with none of the regular members feeling superfluous. The Big Three were there, usually in various combinations, to provide direction and authority. Since they had there own titles, however, little of their personal lives played out in the Avengers; Wanda, Hawkeye, Vision, Simon, Carol, and others fulfilled that function. There was a happy balance.



    Quote:
    The team's relationship to the public and to government fluctuated, but has been important part of the title's concept since the beginning. They've been affiliated with the U.S. government, with the U.N., with SHIELD. They've gone rogue and they've been disbanded. But we always knew where they stood.



    Quote:
    Sometimes, granted, characters were given membership that probably shouldn't have been. I'm bit referring to certain B-listers who are sometimes disparaged like Tigra or Moon Knight or Quasar, so much as those who were never developed as Avengers, never really served: Machine Man, D-Man, Hellcat, Darkhawk. They may have been as great for the title as Hawkeye or Vision, but writers never really used them.



    Quote:
    Since Disassembled, the spirit of the Avengers has been sadly diluted. There are three teams, not counting Academy, but what really differentiates them? Luke's team should be a street level team, but they seem to deal with cosmic and mystic threats as readily as Cap's Avengers. The Secret Avengers don't seem to do much that's really all that secret, or much that either of the other team's couldn't do. What's the point? At least in the days of a New York and a California team the responsibilities were distinct and understood.



    Quote:
    How many people have been made Avengers since Disassembled? Off the top of my head: Luke Cage, Wolverine, Spider Woman, Dr. Strange, Iron Fist, Sentry, Ares, Valkyrie, Ant-man III, Jessica Jones, Protector, Red Hulk, Storm, Bucky, Echo (who,you might well ask), Daredevil, Stature, Amadeus Cho, young Vision, Quake, Flash-Venom, and Captain Britain. Whew. And I'm not even certain about Nova, Shang-chi, Brother Voodoo, Prince of Orphans, Squirrel Girl, or the various liasons (Sharon, Maria, Victoria). How many of these have received much characterization or plotline in the last decade? Cage a bit, maybe. Sentry was a convulted mess. Bendis himself can't seem to keep track if Noh-varr is from this reality (as suggested in AvX) or another one (as previousy established). Spider Woman could have been given some plot, but other than some smooching with Clint, she has contributed less then nothing in 10 years. Quake might well be the lamest character ever created.


When you put it like it's easy to see why the books lost their focus. It's like throwing characters against the wall to see who will stick.


    Quote:
    Since Disassembled, there has also been a tendency to recapitulate storylines: we get two incarnations of Dark Avengers, three power sources for the Hood (Mephisto, Norn Stones, Infinity Gems), the repeated destruction of Avengers Tower, the mimicing of Stamford with the attack at Soldier's Field, and on and on.


To pile on, there were repeated instances of helicarriers crashing to the earth. Even Disassembled itself was just repeating older stories, but all at once (Jack-of-Hearts' explosive issues, Vision used as an Ultron tool, Red Zone She-Hulk, Vision destroyed, the Kree-Skrull War, Crazy Wanda).


    Quote:
    I'm also not crazy about the tendency of characters like Wolverine, Spider-man, the Thing, and others to serve on multiple teams at the same time. There are plenty of characters to go around, many great ones under-utilized: Photon, Falcon, Wonder Man, She-hulk, Hercules, Black Knight, Crystal. Ten years ago, maybe Bendis or Quesada could make an argument that Spider-man would help boost Avengers sales. After a blockbuster movie in which the only spider character around was a woman, that probably isn't true anymore (if it ever was...I've always contended that you improve a book's sales by improving a book's stories, not just by throwing popular characters into the pot).



    Quote:
    I wish Hickman well, but he's inheriting a mess.



    Quote:
    My own wish: do away with New Avengers. Give us one primary team consisting of: Captain America, Thor, Ironman, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel (Carol), She-Hulk, Spider Woman, Beast, and Captain Britain. Make the Secret Avengers a real espionage book, featuring Hawkeye, Black Widow, Mockingbird, Iron Fist, Ant-man, Moon Knight, Arachne, and Shroud. Let Wolverine focus on his school; Dr. Strange reconstruct the Defenders; Luke lead the Thunderbolts; Thing stay in the FF. The Protector and the Red Hulk should just be written off as bad ideas. Giant-man, Tigra, and Quicksilver should stay with the Academy, easily the best Avengers title on the market. Perhaps Firebird or a few other Avengers-past could be used as faculty.


Agreed 100% (except I'm not that keen on Captain Britain on the team).


    Quote:
    It's all wishful thinking, I know; but a decade into the current mess and I haven't given up, yet.


You're a better man than me, I gave up after Secret Invasion.




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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DCR


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,861


Well, that's what you get for keeping for yourselves the pink/white haired girl who should lead the Avengers. ;\-\)



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Varan


Member Since: Mon Nov 24, 2008
Posts: 1,250


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