Avengers >> View Thread

Posted with Mozilla Firefox 13.0.1 on Windows XP
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 13.0.1 on Windows XP
Author
FirstChAoS




The "miss the old avengers" post revealed a few posts I find odd. Some say that the avengers MUST always have the big three of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. Others assume the team should mostly be the core nine (or close to it) of thor, cap, ironman, hawkeye, pym, wasp, vision, scarlet witch, and wonderman.

Though I do say I want at least one or two of the Core nine in my avengers I find it odd how many people discount any other avengers as fake.

Mind you their are some Avengers whose membership I disagree with or dislike (Sentry, Wolverine, Ares, Moon Knight, Jessica Drew, etc.) But their are any second tier (black knight, she-hulk, hercules) and third tier (Justice, Firebird, Living Lightning) Avengers I enjoy and consider valid Avengers.

This leads to a few questions I have.

If you feel the Avengers MUST be composed of the BIG three or the core nine (or a group close to the core nine) why? Do you consider those second and third tier avengers not valid as members or not fitting the avengers feel?

Any my other question is what do you consider traits that make someone avengers material?

What I feel makes a person Avengers Material is the following.

1. Heroic Acts: The character must act consistantly heroic. This means by both being willing to help, protect, and save others selflessly. And being willing and able to do so while on duty.

2. Code Against Killing: Yes I took this ones name from a disadvantage in the Champions superhero RPG. An Avengers should be unwilling to kill and only resort to such in only the most extreme and unlikely of circumstances. And even then stooping to that level should be a burden to him and a decision not reached quickly.

3. Relatively Stable: His mental state should be stable enough to be trusted in a position of power and authority. Sure almost every avenger ever has gone nuts at one time or other, but during his time as an avenger he must prove his stability and reliability in the role.




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 13.0.1 on Windows XP
bd2999

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    The "miss the old avengers" post revealed a few posts I find odd. Some say that the avengers MUST always have the big three of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. Others assume the team should mostly be the core nine (or close to it) of thor, cap, ironman, hawkeye, pym, wasp, vision, scarlet witch, and wonderman.



    Quote:
    Though I do say I want at least one or two of the Core nine in my avengers I find it odd how many people discount any other avengers as fake.



    Quote:
    Mind you their are some Avengers whose membership I disagree with or dislike (Sentry, Wolverine, Ares, Moon Knight, Jessica Drew, etc.) But their are any second tier (black knight, she-hulk, hercules) and third tier (Justice, Firebird, Living Lightning) Avengers I enjoy and consider valid Avengers.



    Quote:
    This leads to a few questions I have.



    Quote:
    If you feel the Avengers MUST be composed of the BIG three or the core nine (or a group close to the core nine) why? Do you consider those second and third tier avengers not valid as members or not fitting the avengers feel?



    Quote:
    Any my other question is what do you consider traits that make someone avengers material?



    Quote:
    What I feel makes a person Avengers Material is the following.



    Quote:
    1. Heroic Acts: The character must act consistantly heroic. This means by both being willing to help, protect, and save others selflessly. And being willing and able to do so while on duty.



    Quote:
    2. Code Against Killing: Yes I took this ones name from a disadvantage in the Champions superhero RPG. An Avengers should be unwilling to kill and only resort to such in only the most extreme and unlikely of circumstances. And even then stooping to that level should be a burden to him and a decision not reached quickly.



    Quote:
    3. Relatively Stable: His mental state should be stable enough to be trusted in a position of power and authority. Sure almost every avenger ever has gone nuts at one time or other, but during his time as an avenger he must prove his stability and reliability in the role.


IMO it is not about membership. I think having a few mainstays on the team at any point is key, outside of a few story arcs, just to allow it to feel more connected. And the others being busy or something. To me the stories just feel different. They are not as fun at times as they were, and I think need to be. There have been some good dramatic moments in them but they are dramatic because we liked the characters dealing with them.

They are not marketing comics like they were so they are writting them to an older audience I think, but that said I miss a more consise story that seemed to have things every panel or so, and not a million splash pages and arcs lasting 6 or 7 books.

I think your standards are fine, and apply to many heroes. I do not necissarily thing that character x cannot be an Avenger. Some fit better than others but to me I just miss what the comic was. I almost feel that the dialgoue itself has dragged it down as many of the characters are jaded and honestly personalities overlap or have to be played up to much. And I think that makes a mess in the end. You nearly can change out any character for any other character and the book loses its soul. The Avengers still has action and big things happening in it, just to me it is not maximizing it, I just do not have as much of a reason to care.

This could be as much nastolgia on my part than anything but I can go back and read classic avengers runs and still like about everything. I feel I have no need to ever look at the modern books again. And I do not think it is just a modern mess. As I have loved some modern books like Annihilation, Ghost Rider, Captain Britain, Nova and so on. But to me they almost have that yesteryear feel to them and are not being set up soley for the graphic novel (with the exception of Ways part of Ghost Rider).




Look Raist bunnies...
Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 on Windows 7
TJ Burns





I think very few Avengers are "fake", personally... most of the extraneous hangers-on are good for the story that they are in, or for the conflicts/interactions that they have with the "core" Avengers. But, unless they earn a place beyond those interactions, I rarely think of them as being Avengers first, or a core part of the team that could come back at any time. Avengering isn't in their blood so much as it is being in their current circumstances.

My standards for being an Avenger:

1.) Heroic actions - Avengers need to be in the costumed game for the right reasons. Protecting the innocent, saving the helpless, and standing against those who would destroy all of the above. Self-aggrandization, revenge, and the like are not worthy of the Avengers. This mostly rules out those that are too dark to be Avengers, although a few have managed to sneak in.

2.) Reluctance to Kill - Avengers don't kill, easily. While there are some who are more capable of pulling the trigger in difficult situations, like War Machine, Winter Soldier, Black Widow, and the like, it should weigh on them somewhat. Guys who just move on from it without a second thought don't fit as Avengers.

3.) Relative Stability - Almost all of the Avengers are at least a little crazy, but to be a great Avenger, you can't be so in such a way that affects your heroism or endangers others. Quirky crazy is OK... dangerously unstable, not so much.

4.) Good reputation - Not just with the public, which helps, but with their fellow heroes. Bringing disgrace to the Avengers name should be a big deal... and those who are members should seek to avoid it.

5.) Loyalty - Avengers should be loyal to each other and the Avengers organization. When worst comes to worst, the Avengers need to stand together.



TJB


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows XP
christian




I'm 43 years old. I love comics, but don't collect them anymore. Not because I stopped wanting them, but because Marvel, under Joe Quesada, systematically destroyed each title. The writing wasn't just bad, it was atrocious. If the marketing strategy was that long-time readers like myself didn't matter anymore, and the target audience was 18 to 25 year-olds. Then, Marvel must think that young adults are absolute morons. For example, the marketing strategy that they had to 'unmarry' Peter Parker because young readers couldn't identify with a married man(apparently it never occured to them that dreadful writing may have adversely affected Spiderman sales, rather than Peter's marital status).

The Avengers is my favourite super-hero team. I used to love reading Avengers' stories. So, what happened? Well, the team got ruined by writers who thought that flagging sales meant no one liked the 'old' team. They were stale, and needed new blood. Again, they couldn't grasp that it was their own dismal writing that was the problem. Writing doesn't improve just because a writer replaces the Beast with Tigra. Or Thor with Sentry. The Avengers has a core group of 8, and a secondary group of 6. Any new characters should have been limited to ONE, and broken in alongside the core members. This is the way new members were introduced almost from the start, until around Quesada's ascendance. One here, one there, until the fans accepted them. Beast, Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk - all separately. Not a whole crop of new characters with two core members to make it seem like the Avengers.

Also, I always felt the Avengers were like the Knights of the Round Table. Noble heroes who fight mostly villains who, under normal circumstances, would kill the Fantastic Four or the X-Men. The alpha team. But, trying to make them more like the X-Men(anti-heroes) was contrary to the whole premise of the book. Captain America is a hero. Wolverine is an assasin. Luke Cage is a thug. The Avengers should be heroes.

If they want to fix the damage they've done to the Avengers, then, aside from firing Quesada, they should have an 8 member team:

5 chosen from the core 8: Cap, Thor, Ironman, Wasp, Yellow Jacket, Vision, Wanda, Hawkeye

2 chosen from the secondary 6: Quicksilver, Black Panther, Hercules, Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk

1 chosen as new, or a recurring third tier member. i.e. Spiderman, Black Knight, Firestar, etc.

And make sure the Avengers have standards!! No thugs or killers. To quote from an issue of Captain America(many years ago) where Cap, disgusted at witnessing Wolverine let an opponent die, says to Logan: "I hope your buddies in the X-Men can put up with you, because the Avengers would never have you."


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows XP
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,427




    Quote:
    The "miss the old avengers" post revealed a few posts I find odd. Some say that the avengers MUST always have the big three of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man. Others assume the team should mostly be the core nine (or close to it) of thor, cap, ironman, hawkeye, pym, wasp, vision, scarlet witch, and wonderman.


Well right of the bat I've never been a big fan of Wonderman.  And the idea I keep seeing from time to time about a "core" of "classic" Avengers reminds me why the series was in a rut for so long.  
Forget about the old core, that group was too cliqueish. (sp?)   With a group like the Avengers, it should not be about the clique, it should be about the mission.   And the next mission, and the mission after that, etc.     When it had that "core group" and only just one or two new members it was just too much of the same old, same old.

One of the reasons that Claremont's X-men were in a rut for so long was that it stopped being a book about the attempt to join mutants with the rest of humanity, and became one that was all about the mutants.   I wouldn't want the Avengers to head down that slippery slope again like they had been doing before  disassembled.


    Quote:
    Though I do say I want at least one or two of the Core nine in my avengers I find it odd how many people discount any other avengers as fake.



    Quote:
    Mind you their are some Avengers whose membership I disagree with or dislike (Sentry, Wolverine, Ares, Moon Knight, Jessica Drew, etc.) But their are any second tier (black knight, she-hulk, hercules) and third tier (Justice, Firebird, Living Lightning) Avengers I enjoy and consider valid Avengers.



    Quote:
    This leads to a few questions I have.



    Quote:
    If you feel the Avengers MUST be composed of the BIG three or the core nine (or a group close to the core nine) why? Do you consider those second and third tier avengers not valid as members or not fitting the avengers feel?



    Quote:
    Any my other question is what do you consider traits that make someone avengers material?





    Quote:
    What I feel makes a person Avengers Material is the following.



    Quote:
    1. Heroic Acts: The character must act consistantly heroic. This means by both being willing to help, protect, and save others selflessly. And being willing and able to do so while on duty.



    Quote:
    2. Code Against Killing: Yes I took this ones name from a disadvantage in the Champions superhero RPG. An Avengers should be unwilling to kill and only resort to such in only the most extreme and unlikely of circumstances. And even then stooping to that level should be a burden to him and a decision not reached quickly.



    Quote:
    3. Relatively Stable: His mental state should be stable enough to be trusted in a position of power and authority. Sure almost every avenger ever has gone nuts at one time or other, but during his time as an avenger he must prove his stability and reliability in the role.



So why did we end up with characters like Silverclaw, Triathalon, Hellcat, Doctor Driud, D-Man, Moondragon, Jack of Hearts, etc?  The Avengers shouldn't be a roster of characters chosen because they weren't well enough liked to have their own books.   Give me Mockingbird and Spider Woman over those guys.3

The "core" avengers should be the core heroes of the MU.   At this point, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Doctor Strange should be thought of as core MU heroes, as well as all Four member of the FF, and some X-Men.







christian




The problem with your point is that the 'same old, same old' plots you're complaining about are the result of poor writing, not stagnant characters.  A fictional character cannot be stagnant.  Only the writer is to blame when a character fails to appeal to the readership.
And the Avengers being composed of Marvel's elite characters is a blatant rip-off of the Justice League.  Doing that simply tells the readers that Marvel's writers have no idea what they want the Avengers to be(so let's steal an idea from the competition).  Ditto the character of Mockingbird.  C'mon, Hawkeye and Mockingbird?  Green Arrow and Black Canary.  A writer should have more pride than to use other peoples ideas.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows XP
Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,270


Vision
Black Panther
Daredevil
Beast
Wonderman
Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel or Captain Marvel
Hulk
Cap
Thor
Iron Man
Spider Woman
Spider Man


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 on Windows 7
Dane Whitman




Have a thing about the number seven. Also a mix of old and new always works best.


Posted with Apple iPad 534.46
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,427




    Quote:
    The problem with your point is that the 'same old, same old' plots you're complaining about are the result of poor writing, not stagnant characters.  A fictional character cannot be stagnant.  Only the writer is to blame when a character fails to appeal to the readership.

While that should be correct in theory, in actuality, there are some characters that even the best writers can't seem to make interesting.


    Quote:
    And the Avengers being composed of Marvel's elite characters is a blatant rip-off of the Justice League.  Doing that simply tells the readers that Marvel's writers have no idea what they want the Avengers to be(so let's steal an idea from the competition).  Ditto the character of Mockingbird.  C'mon, Hawkeye and Mockingbird?  Green Arrow and Black Canary.  A writer should have more pride than to use other peoples ideas.


As long as they aren't the same characters, I don't see the problem. As long as there isn't a Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman on the them they won't be the Justice League.

As for Mockingbird, I think she was created because writers couldn't use Black Widow for a Hawkeye romance any more. I'm not sure which came first, but if it was Hawkeye & Black Widow, then Green Arrow & Black Canary was the rip off of that. (So Hawkeye & Mockingbird would really be a rip off of Clintasha.)

In any case, in as much as I check out Justice League, it does seem to have a "core number" and my whole point was that I didn't want that for the Avengers.   They can have "core members" but I don't want to see a "core number".   That smacks of rigidity that stifles creativity for future artists and writers.







balin






Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 on Windows Vista
MysteryMan





    Quote:
    I'm 43 years old. I love comics, but don't collect them anymore. Not because I stopped wanting them, but because Marvel, under Joe Quesada, systematically destroyed each title. The writing wasn't just bad, it was atrocious. If the marketing strategy was that long-time readers like myself didn't matter anymore, and the target audience was 18 to 25 year-olds. Then, Marvel must think that young adults are absolute morons. For example, the marketing strategy that they had to 'unmarry' Peter Parker because young readers couldn't identify with a married man(apparently it never occured to them that dreadful writing may have adversely affected Spiderman sales, rather than Peter's marital status).



    Quote:
    The Avengers is my favourite super-hero team. I used to love reading Avengers' stories. So, what happened? Well, the team got ruined by writers who thought that flagging sales meant no one liked the 'old' team. They were stale, and needed new blood. Again, they couldn't grasp that it was their own dismal writing that was the problem. Writing doesn't improve just because a writer replaces the Beast with Tigra. Or Thor with Sentry. The Avengers has a core group of 8, and a secondary group of 6. Any new characters should have been limited to ONE, and broken in alongside the core members. This is the way new members were introduced almost from the start, until around Quesada's ascendance. One here, one there, until the fans accepted them. Beast, Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk - all separately. Not a whole crop of new characters with two core members to make it seem like the Avengers.



    Quote:
    Also, I always felt the Avengers were like the Knights of the Round Table. Noble heroes who fight mostly villains who, under normal circumstances, would kill the Fantastic Four or the X-Men. The alpha team. But, trying to make them more like the X-Men(anti-heroes) was contrary to the whole premise of the book. Captain America is a hero. Wolverine is an assasin. Luke Cage is a thug. The Avengers should be heroes.



    Quote:
    If they want to fix the damage they've done to the Avengers, then, aside from firing Quesada, they should have an 8 member team:



    Quote:
    5 chosen from the core 8: Cap, Thor, Ironman, Wasp, Yellow Jacket, Vision, Wanda, Hawkeye



    Quote:
    2 chosen from the secondary 6: Quicksilver, Black Panther, Hercules, Wonderman, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk



    Quote:
    1 chosen as new, or a recurring third tier member. i.e. Spiderman, Black Knight, Firestar, etc.



    Quote:
    And make sure the Avengers have standards!! No thugs or killers. To quote from an issue of Captain America(many years ago) where Cap, disgusted at witnessing Wolverine let an opponent die, says to Logan: "I hope your buddies in the X-Men can put up with you, because the Avengers would never have you."


I'd be a little more flexible on the numbers. I also thought it would be interesting if they continued the trend of re-habbing the occasional villain (Ex: Hawkeye). I always thought Amora would be an awsome pick. Maybe start with a villain from your core 8.

Mr. Q. is definitely the cause of much sadness.
I am ok that they tried something esle...but it just doesnt work/feel right. And if anything the movie backs us up. You have 4 of your core 8 in the movie + Hulk (founding memeber) and Widow (tier 2 1/2 imo). And it's the biggest comic book blockbuster of all time.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 8 4.0; on Windows 7

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2022 Powermad Software