Avengers >> View Thread

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Author
Snowstorm




All that I have feared for so many years has now come to pass. That's why I quit. I began in the 70's with Avengers # 128. I expressed one fear, too many Avengers, in a letters page from the Busiek era. But at least the book still looked likeThe Avengers. Then "disassemble" came and all hell broke loose. I was also afraid the regular Marvel Universe would be "ultimatized". It was. Even Fury is going to be Afro-American, now (nothing against Afro-Americans, don't misunderstand me). And my long-standing fear that the Avengers would turn into the X-Men. We had a taste way back when they started sporting leather jackets with the Avengers logo. Now: Uncanny Avengers. They killed it for me. A fan from 40 years back. So long.



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StormBringer




wow...is it that serious though?

I been a reader for 25 years and this in no way is making me stop reading.


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Methuselah




I agree with your point about too many Avengers. But I've kinda come to the conclusion that the comic markets are not designed for those like you and I who have read for years but not so much anymore.

To be honest though the Uncanny Avengers thing does not bother me. Heck I loved the Champions which was kinda a precursor to that. And now that I think of it there have always been characters like Beast, Wanda, Quicksilver, etc on the Avengers.

I do think that the increasing reliance on mega crossovers and particularly storylines where long respected characters do hrrible things for shck value is a little troubling. I guess that the sales figures support that it boosts sales or else they wouldn't do it. But it just seems like you couldn't go to that well ttoo often without hurting thequality of the stories and maybe eventually the numbers as well.


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Doc Boomstick




No offense, but this seems like a pretty minor thing to quit reading over. The Uncanny Avengers is obviously something that will have a short shelf life. People started screaming when Spider-man revealed his ID as if it had any chance of sticking. Just enjoy the stories or else wait for something more to your liking. I don't see it as that big of a deal.


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PCmor




... but if this makes me turn to super-villainy, it's on Marvel's heads.


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creeper




I quit reading the 2 main Avengers books right when AvsX started. I'm just tired of the yearly mega crossovers. I really hate the way Marvel does their mega events now. I started collecting the new DCU, and I will admit it, I'm enjoying the DC titles way more then the few Marvel titles I collect.

I know they have to change things up now and then in the comic book world, but do they really need to cancel series because a writer is leaving? Do they really need to bring back the OG X-Men into the present day?

Marvel's biggest mistake is having so many Avengers and X-men titles. If they really want to increase sells, why not streamline all of of the X-Men and Avengers titles. Yes I know they are cancelling some of them, but I'm sure they will bring them back at some point.


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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908


I'm going to wait and see how things go... there is no reason to judge the stories until I have read them. I remember many people making statements about the DC reboot and claiming it would be horrible... but it has produced some great stories.

And, lets be honest. The future of Marvel comics isn't with the 20 - 40 year long readers... they, like any industry, need to bring in new and younger customers. If this change will work to do that while still providing quality stories about the characters I appreciate... then I think it is a good thing.

As far as restarting a series when the creative team leaves... I don't care one way or the other. I'll buy it if it is a #1 or a #600.


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Hank


Member Since: Fri Jul 01, 2011



I agree with you in what has come and gone on Avengers since the Disassembled story line. I remember when the Ultimate's came out and how every body wondered if that was going to the "reboot" to the Marvel Universe. Every one was expecting that Crossover that would do it. And it never came. Now with the relaunch .... which will really only last til some new writer realizes that are close to #700 or something like that, remember Hero's Return. The whole Marvel Now! idea just looks awful IMO. It just looks like they are trying to mirror the books more to the films which is obviously "ultimatized". While the of Uncanny Avengers sound good to me since for years X books and Avengers almost seemed to be different universes and it would be a great idea to see the Avengers fight Stryfe, or Xmen fight Maelstrom. But in the end it will be the writers who will either make it interesting or just another dragged out post Dissembled story line.





Bikini House Productions: Like EDM? Check out my releases.
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Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,428




    Quote:
    All that I have feared for so many years has now come to pass. That's why I quit. I began in the 70's with Avengers # 128. I expressed one fear, too many Avengers, in a letters page from the Busiek era. But at least the book still looked likeThe Avengers. Then "disassemble" came and all hell broke loose. I was also afraid the regular Marvel Universe would be "ultimatized". It was. Even Fury is going to be Afro-American, now (nothing against Afro-Americans, don't misunderstand me). And my long-standing fear that the Avengers would turn into the X-Men. We had a taste way back when they started sporting leather jackets with the Avengers logo. Now: Uncanny Avengers. They killed it for me. A fan from 40 years back. So long.


I'm actually optimistic about this. For far too long the X-Men have been too separate from the Avengers. I'd personally like to see a bit more joining of the MU. Lets see how Havok and Thor would interact. I'm hoping it doesn't stop there. Would Gambit and Hawkeye be friends? How about Dazzler and Daredevil? Cecilia Reyes and Doctor Strange?






Jazzy




Wow Snowstorm......dramatic much?

Don't buy the Uncanny Avengers.....but a topflight talent such as Jonathon Hickman on the Avengers title....that is a dream come true! (As opposed to your nightmare)

Stick with it....it might be great! We at least get Wanda back


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,277


It's not that I disapprove or don't hope this is a successful venture for Marvel, I just am not really interested in a whole new Marvel, because I like the old one, and the Nu one that Bendis and company created.

The comice are way too expensive for me anymore. I was so excited about AVX that I foresee following it to the end, but after that this is a nice opportunity for me to get off the train while I still can.


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Harlock999




I'm with you, Quantum.

I'll stick with Ed Brubaker's Winter Soldier, and I've already decided to try the "heavy continuity-free" Gambit by James Asmus.

But once Brubaker leaves Captain America? And this current event comes to a close? I'm pretty much out.

(Although if Steve Epting ends up drawing the Black Knight in the pages of New Avengers? I might pick that up...)




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Harlock999




I don't know... I tend to also believe the brand identity of the Avengers was severely damaged with "Avengers Disassmbled" and the sudden inclusion of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Power Man, Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, etc.

And yeah, Uncanny Avengers?!? Yikes. I mean, if Marvel wanted to work out this concept so bad, why not employ the likes of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Beast, Wolverine, Justice, Firestar, and Namor? You know, Avengers who are also mutants? Instead, we have Cap, Thor, Rogue, and Havok?!? What the-?!?

Plus, the idea flies in the face of everything the Avengers represent - that is, "fighting the good fight for EVERYONE."

(The X-Men's identity is all about trying to create a bridge between humanity and mutants.)

Also, the Avengers have almost always lent Xavier's group a hand when they needed it most. Magneto's "rehabilitation" aside...


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stovap

ah man! remember floating heads???!(nt)





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Doc Boomstick





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    I don't know... I tend to also believe the brand identity of the Avengers was severely damaged with "Avengers Disassmbled" and the sudden inclusion of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Power Man, Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, etc.


I don't think you can blame their branding problems on the inclusion of these characters though. The problem with their brand is that they've created so many teams. Mighty, New, Dark, Young, Initiative...see what I mean? You can't just pick on the guys that showed up in New Avengers when Marvel has been sweeping half the MU into the Avengers. I think it's far better to have guys like Cage and Spidey in the Avengers than to have a whole team of new characters that we've never heard of being called Avengers.


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    And yeah, Uncanny Avengers?!? Yikes. I mean, if Marvel wanted to work out this concept so bad, why not employ the likes of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Beast, Wolverine, Justice, Firestar, and Namor? You know, Avengers who are also mutants? Instead, we have Cap, Thor, Rogue, and Havok?!? What the-?!?


It's just a name. Odds are the story well be mutant-centric. It's not like they are saying that the X-men and Avengers corners of the MU are going to permanently merge.


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    Plus, the idea flies in the face of everything the Avengers represent - that is, "fighting the good fight for EVERYONE."


I'm not sure what you mean. Most of the time, the X-men have been saving everyone as well.


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    (The X-Men's identity is all about trying to create a bridge between humanity and mutants.)


Sure, but in reality they just end up saving people and beating up super villains most of the time. Surely there is common ground with the Avengers. If you can have Captain America as an agent of SHIELD, then why can't X-men and Avenger teams cooperate?


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    Also, the Avengers have almost always lent Xavier's group a hand when they needed it most. Magneto's "rehabilitation" aside...


Maybe that's what this is.


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Harlock999





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      I don't know... I tend to also believe the brand identity of the Avengers was severely damaged with "Avengers Disassmbled" and the sudden inclusion of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Power Man, Iron Fist, Dr. Strange, etc.



    Quote:
    I don't think you can blame their branding problems on the inclusion of these characters though. The problem with their brand is that they've created so many teams. Mighty, New, Dark, Young, Initiative...see what I mean? You can't just pick on the guys that showed up in New Avengers when Marvel has been sweeping half the MU into the Avengers. I think it's far better to have guys like Cage and Spidey in the Avengers than to have a whole team of new characters that we've never heard of being called Avengers.


Oh, I agree. But that's just further proof of Marvel's dilution of the Avengers brand. The real problem did indeed begin with, again, the sudden inclusion of a slew of new members ... most of which already belonged to other brand franchises (i.e., "Power Man and Iron Fist," "X-Men," "Spider-Man," "Defenders," etc).

While attaining new members is certainly a hallmark of the Avengers, it is usually a slow, methodical process. As in one new member joins the team every few years. And the new members usually have no huge ties to other well-known brand franchises (e.g., Crystal, Sersi, Gilgamesh, She-Hulk, Deathcry, Triathalon, Living Lightning, Moon Knight, Dr. Druid, Quasar, Tigra, Black Knight, Black Panther, Hercules, Captain Marvel/Photon ... the list goes on and on).

Before Bendis, the only examples that seemed to buck this trend were possibly Namor (a Defender), Beast (an X-Man), and Justice and Firestar (New Warriors).

Yet now, the Avengers' classic headliners - Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Giant-Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye - are forced to compete with big names (arguably brand names) like Wolverine, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage for prominence. And that is absolutely asinine!


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      And yeah, Uncanny Avengers?!? Yikes. I mean, if Marvel wanted to work out this concept so bad, why not employ the likes of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Beast, Wolverine, Justice, Firestar, and Namor? You know, Avengers who are also mutants? Instead, we have Cap, Thor, Rogue, and Havok?!? What the-?!?



    Quote:
    It's just a name. Odds are the story well be mutant-centric. It's not like they are saying that the X-men and Avengers corners of the MU are going to permanently merge.


So you're thinking Uncanny Avengers will simply be a maxi-series, not an ongoing?


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      Plus, the idea flies in the face of everything the Avengers represent - that is, "fighting the good fight for EVERYONE."



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    I'm not sure what you mean. Most of the time, the X-men have been saving everyone as well.


True, but that's not the X-Men mission statement.

The Avengers are a team of assembled heroes ready to face any threat to humanity at large. The X-Men, meanwhile, have always been about promoting peace and understanding between humans and mutants (which, yeah, often leads into combat with "evil" mutants and assorted "bad guys" that are out to destroy ... well, everything).


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      (The X-Men's identity is all about trying to create a bridge between humanity and mutants.)



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    Sure, but in reality they just end up saving people and beating up super villains most of the time. Surely there is common ground with the Avengers. If you can have Captain America as an agent of SHIELD, then why can't X-men and Avenger teams cooperate?


Common ground? Absolutely. I'd even say that the Defenders, Fantastic Four, and Micronauts find common ground in "saving the universe" or whatnot. But the brand identity of each of these teams is different.

Avengers - tackle any huge threat
Fantastic Four - explore and protect
X-Men - protect mutants and promote understanding
Defenders - "non-team" that, quite frankly, has always struggled with an identity ... other than "hey, we're the powerful misunderstood outcasts"
Micronauts - explore the Microverse and wage war against Karza*

In the past, all of these teams have managed to cooperate with one another without combining forces to create the Defending Microvengers. Or some other random silliness.

Hey, a phone call will suffice. And Vizh and Pym can then meet up with the Thing and Torch to help out against an Ultron raging through the Baxter Building. Or Xavier can inform Storm and Angel that Mari and Bug need help against Sauron in the Savage Land.

Creating a permanent merged team, again, just ruins both franchises by continued dilution and disregard for what makes each one special.


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      Quote:
      Also, the Avengers have almost always lent Xavier's group a hand when they needed it most. Magneto's "rehabilitation" aside...



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    Maybe that's what this is.


I think it's planned to be more than that...

I mean, "Cap feels guilty about not (directly) dealing with mutant persecution so he creates a new team made up of both Avengers and X-Men"...? Ugh.










* - Yes, I'm fully aware the Micronauts are no longer truly viable. (Karza's still dead, and Rann and company now call themselves the Microns, right? You know, to avoid copyright infringement. In fact, Bug is actually with the Guardians of the Galaxy or some other cosmic team, correct?) Anyway, I was simply using that group of adventurers as an example. Peace. 8\-\)




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Doc Boomstick





    Quote:
    Oh, I agree. But that's just further proof of Marvel's dilution of the Avengers brand. The real problem did indeed begin with, again, the sudden inclusion of a slew of new members ... most of which already belonged to other brand franchises (i.e., "Power Man and Iron Fist," "X-Men," "Spider-Man," "Defenders," etc).


I think that including X-men and FFers definitely causes some confusion, especially since they continue to wear those logos. However, Spider-man is a popular character but he's not a team. I see no reason why he can't be an Avenger. Also, I would hardly call Cage and Fist a franchise. Cloak and Dagger are a more permanent duo. If anything, Defenders should be developed more into a separate franchise than it is.


    Quote:
    While attaining new members is certainly a hallmark of the Avengers, it is usually a slow, methodical process. As in one new member joins the team every few years. And the new members usually have no huge ties to other well-known brand franchises (e.g., Crystal, Sersi, Gilgamesh, She-Hulk, Deathcry, Triathalon, Living Lightning, Moon Knight, Dr. Druid, Quasar, Tigra, Black Knight, Black Panther, Hercules, Captain Marvel/Photon ... the list goes on and on).


I agree. I think the big change happened fast because Marvel wanted to put a shot of adrenaline into the heart of Avengers. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but they could have at least made the Avengers being completely different part of the plot. Cap and Iron Man made the team pretty legit, but they never really talked about how everyone else was a newcomer and how that might be perceived.


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    Before Bendis, the only examples that seemed to buck this trend were possibly Namor (a Defender), Beast (an X-Man), and Justice and Firestar (New Warriors).


Namor predates the Avengers and has a large role in the FF's history, so in a way he's almost his own franchise more than part of a Defenders one. And the New Warriors never really had a purpose as far as I can tell. That said, why do all Earth-based super teams need to be Avengers?


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    Yet now, the Avengers' classic headliners - Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Giant-Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye - are forced to compete with big names (arguably brand names) like Wolverine, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage for prominence. And that is absolutely asinine!


It sounds like you think the only A-listers that should be Avengers are the Big 3. I can understand that from a reader's point of view, but in terms of business and the reality of how these fictional characters would act, it makes no sense that Cap wouldn't want Spider-man on his team.

Wolverine doesn't fit in, I agree. Dr. Strange is best used as a supporting character or else he gets watered down. However, Cage is exactly the type of person the Avengers would have picked up before Disassembled and Spider-man has already been a reserve.


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    So you're thinking Uncanny Avengers will simply be a maxi-series, not an ongoing?


We'll see, but I doubt it will go fifty issues before cancellation or a name change. Thunderbolts is now called Dark Avengers, but i would hardly consider it an Avengers book.


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    True, but that's not the X-Men mission statement.


True.

It sounds to me that you think Marvel should only have one superteam of any given "type" at a time. So what are your thoughts on a group like Alpha Flight? Why would they not respond to the same threats the Avengers do?


    Quote:
    Avengers - tackle any huge threat
    Fantastic Four - explore and protect
    X-Men - protect mutants and promote understanding
    Defenders - "non-team" that, quite frankly, has always struggled with an identity ... other than "hey, we're the powerful misunderstood outcasts"
    Micronauts - explore the Microverse and wage war against Karza*


If I had to name all of the MU teams that I think should exist, I'd wipe out your Micronauts and add Heroes for Hire (street), Guardians of the Galaxy (space), and a SHIELD team. However, that doesn't mean different super hero teams can't pop up in other countries. And why is it the Avengers are the Earth's protectors but always end up fighting in NYC? If I were a villain I'd attack Paris, or St. Petersburg. Regardless, the reality is that if a global threat occurs it just wouldn't make any sense for the Avengers not to coordinate with these other teams.


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    In the past, all of these teams have managed to cooperate with one another without combining forces to create the Defending Microvengers. Or some other random silliness.


It just doesn't make any sense to me that when the Skrulls come to invade Cap wouldn't call the X-men given their firepower. Of course we live in a (fictional) world where the Avengers and FF are always out of town whenever Spider-man needs help.


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    Hey, a phone call will suffice. And Vizh and Pym can then meet up with the Thing and Torch to help out against an Ultron raging through the Baxter Building. Or Xavier can inform Storm and Angel that Mari and Bug need help against Sauron in the Savage Land.


But cross pollination enhances sales. That's what Marvel is going for. People buy crossovers and big events and that basically screws us because the constant big events just contort the characters while the ongoing books become filler.


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    Creating a permanent merged team, again, just ruins both franchises by continued dilution and disregard for what makes each one special.


I agree, but I don't think it applies to heroes that aren't strongly associated with a team. I don't think it should be based on popularity.



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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:
    It's not that I disapprove or don't hope this is a successful venture for Marvel, I just am not really interested in a whole new Marvel, because I like the old one, and the Nu one that Bendis and company created.


I disapprove and hope the venture fails. I prefer the old Marvel.



    Quote:
    The comice are way too expensive for me anymore. I was so excited about AVX that I foresee following it to the end, but after that this is a nice opportunity for me to get off the train while I still can.







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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Before Bendis, the only examples that seemed to buck this trend were possibly Namor (a Defender), Beast (an X-Man), and Justice and Firestar (New Warriors).



    Quote:
    Namor predates the Avengers and has a large role in the FF's history, so in a way he's almost his own franchise more than part of a Defenders one. And the New Warriors never really had a purpose as far as I can tell. That said, why do all Earth-based super teams need to be Avengers?



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Yet now, the Avengers' classic headliners - Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Giant-Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye - are forced to compete with big names (arguably brand names) like Wolverine, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage for prominence. And that is absolutely asinine!


I would say that Captain America, when he joined, was a "brand name" separate from the Avengers. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were associated with the X-Men. Hawkeye was connected to Iron Man (An Avengers brand I suppose). Same with Black Widow.

Ms. Marvel was connected to Captain Marvel. Moon Knight was kind of on his own. Hercules was connected to Thor I suppose. Would Black Panther have been considered to be part of the Fantastic Four?

Falcon was part of Cap's brand. She-Hulk a part of the Hulk's brand (both, admittedly, having Avengers ties). War Machine a part of Iron Man, Gilgamesh, Sersi and Starfox are Eternals, USAgent part of Cap's, would Quasar count as SHIELD?

Thunderstrike part of Thor, Justice and Firestar were New Warriors. Crystal was part of the Fantastic Four.

I agree that it has become ENTIRELY too easy to become an Avenger... it seems like if you show up at the tower or the mansion you're automatically a member.

However, I disagree that the Avengers don't have a history of including members who belonged to other brand franchises.


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Harlock999





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    I would say that Captain America, when he joined, was a "brand name" separate from the Avengers.


Uh, Avengers was on issue #4, and Cap hadn't been published in years.


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    Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were associated with the X-Men.


Yeah, as 2nd-rate flunkies under Magneto's leadership; they weren't X-Men. And the X-Men was - what? - in its first year? C'mon...


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    Ms. Marvel was connected to Captain Marvel. Moon Knight was kind of on his own. Hercules was connected to Thor I suppose. Would Black Panther have been considered to be part of the Fantastic Four?


The fact that you're asking questions about these characters just points to the fact they were only loosely connected to their brand franchises. It's not like Thing and the FF ... or Spider-Man and the Spidey family of titles ... or Wolverine and the X-Men ... or a solo character that has been a constant headliner since the 60s like Daredevil ... or Iron Fist, the latter half of "Power Man and..."


    Quote:
    Falcon was part of Cap's brand. She-Hulk a part of the Hulk's brand (both, admittedly, having Avengers ties). War Machine a part of Iron Man, Gilgamesh, Sersi and Starfox are Eternals, USAgent part of Cap's, would Quasar count as SHIELD?


So yeah, now, you understand what I pointed out earlier? Most new Avengers members were either loosely tied to other franchises. Or not at all.


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    Thunderstrike part of Thor, Justice and Firestar were New Warriors. Crystal was part of the Fantastic Four.


Again, I'd argue Crystal was only loosely tied to the FF. And Eric Masterson was technically one of the "big three" for a while ... so your point? Finally, I addressed Justice and Firestar (as well as Beast and Namor) in my initial post.


    Quote:
    I agree that it has become ENTIRELY too easy to become an Avenger... it seems like if you show up at the tower or the mansion you're automatically a member.


True. There have been a veritable cornucopia of new members since Bendis took over the Avengers books.


    Quote:
    However, I disagree that the Avengers don't have a history of including members who belonged to other brand franchises.


Actually, you kinda do agree with me, based on your posts, amigo. 8\-\)




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Harlock999





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Yet now, the Avengers' classic headliners - Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Giant-Man, Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye - are forced to compete with big names (arguably brand names) like Wolverine, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and Luke Cage for prominence. And that is absolutely asinine!



    Quote:
    It sounds like you think the only A-listers that should be Avengers are the Big 3. I can understand that from a reader's point of view, but in terms of business and the reality of how these fictional characters would act, it makes no sense that Cap wouldn't want Spider-man on his team.


Actually, Byrne's Nebula story from the early 90s illustrated why Cap wouldn't want Spider-Man on his team. It also pointed out why Spidey wouldn't want in on the Avengers.

And yeah, I think to preserve the brand identity of the Avengers, the "big three" should be your only "A-listers" (as you put it).

Millar recognized this with the Ultimates. And Marvel Studios recognized this with their film franchise. (BTW, Hulk works great for the films, less so with the comics; Hulk hasn't been a regular member of the Avengers since the 4th or 5th issue, obviously.)


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    Wolverine doesn't fit in, I agree. Dr. Strange is best used as a supporting character or else he gets watered down. However, Cage is exactly the type of person the Avengers would have picked up before Disassembled and Spider-man has already been a reserve.


I'm still a bit torn on the "Power Man and Iron Fist" members. No matter how much you try to separate them? Or give them their own series over the years? People will ALWAYS remember them best as ... "Power Man and Iron Fist."


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    It sounds to me that you think Marvel should only have one superteam of any given "type" at a time. So what are your thoughts on a group like Alpha Flight? Why would they not respond to the same threats the Avengers do?


Well, it worked for decades. I mean, why would you want overlap?

And Alpha Flight is basically the "Canadian Avengers." (Recall the Avengers didn't go global and start working with the UN until the early 90s.)


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Avengers - tackle any huge threat
      Fantastic Four - explore and protect
      X-Men - protect mutants and promote understanding
      Defenders - "non-team" that, quite frankly, has always struggled with an identity ... other than "hey, we're the powerful misunderstood outcasts"
      Micronauts - explore the Microverse and wage war against Karza*



    Quote:
    If I had to name all of the MU teams that I think should exist, I'd wipe out your Micronauts and add Heroes for Hire (street), Guardians of the Galaxy (space), and a SHIELD team.


I was only using those specific teams as examples. Especially the defunct Micronauts.

If I had to choose what teams should exist? I'd probably go with:

X-Men - promote peace between mutants and humans; protect mutantkind
X-Factor - help mutants adjust to normal lives among humans; protect mutantkind
New Mutants - X-Men-in-training
Excalibur - British equivalent of Avengers
Alpha Flight - Canadian equivalent of Avengers
Defenders - non-team full of powerful "outcasts;" more of a safe gathering place for antisocial characters such as Hulk, Namor, Silver Surfer, etc.
Fantastic Four - explorers, science team, and protectors of Earth
Avengers (East Coast) - strike team to tackle huge menaces
Avengers (West Coast) - ditto
New Warriors - "club"/training ground for young heroes
Nightstalkers - deal with supernatural/paranormal threats
Heroes for Hire - the comic, however, would be titled "Power Man and Iron Fist;" PM, IF, Misty Knight, and Colleen Wing would handle more "street-level" threats
S.H.I.E.L.D. - global espionage and security force
Guardians of the Galaxy - cosmic!


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      In the past, all of these teams have managed to cooperate with one another without combining forces to create the Defending Microvengers. Or some other random silliness.



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    It just doesn't make any sense to me that when the Skrulls come to invade Cap wouldn't call the X-men given their firepower. Of course we live in a (fictional) world where the Avengers and FF are always out of town whenever Spider-man needs help.


Exactly. That's why I responded with the following...


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      Quote:
      Hey, a phone call will suffice. And Vizh and Pym can then meet up with the Thing and Torch to help out against an Ultron raging through the Baxter Building. Or Xavier can inform Storm and Angel that Mari and Bug need help against Sauron in the Savage Land.


This kind of thing used to happen every so often.


    Quote:
    But cross pollination enhances sales. That's what Marvel is going for. People buy crossovers and big events and that basically screws us because the constant big events just contort the characters while the ongoing books become filler.


Oh, it'll boost sales in the short-term. Then Marvel will have to relaunch with a new #1 issue in a few years.

Marvel is caught in a really terrible cycle.




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Doc Boomstick





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    Actually, Byrne's Nebula story from the early 90s illustrated why Cap wouldn't want Spider-Man on his team. It also pointed out why Spidey wouldn't want in on the Avengers.


I don't have that one. Care to summarize?


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    And yeah, I think to preserve the brand identity of the Avengers, the "big three" should be your only "A-listers" (as you put it).


I think you have to choose between have an Avengers brand in the way you imagine it and having the premier MU super team that responds to all major threats. By having it both ways, you're saying only the Big 3 and their sidekicks can respond to global threats.


    Quote:
    Millar recognized this with the Ultimates. And Marvel Studios recognized this with their film franchise. (BTW, Hulk works great for the films, less so with the comics; Hulk hasn't been a regular member of the Avengers since the 4th or 5th issue, obviously.)


Millar was recreating what was already there. It wouldn't have made sense to add people like Spider-man. However, if Marvel owned the film rights to Spider-man, I wouldn't bet against him making an appearance in Avengers.


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    I'm still a bit torn on the "Power Man and Iron Fist" members. No matter how much you try to separate them? Or give them their own series over the years? People will ALWAYS remember them best as ... "Power Man and Iron Fist."


I was introduced to both characters individually, so I'm not overly loyal to the team book (Cage hasn't even been called that in quite some time). I think their friendship is one of their defining traits, and that Heroes for Hire team/angle is original enough exist on its own in the MU.


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    Well, it worked for decades. I mean, why would you want overlap?


Marvel has always had crossovers and the overlapping stories and guest stars are what helped make the books famous, but was really just a way to introduce an existing reader to new characters. I think the problem we are running into now is that the industry is running on fumes and they need to cram all of these characters into one book in order to get enough people to buy it. The big events are no longer events because they are the norm.


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    And Alpha Flight is basically the "Canadian Avengers." (Recall the Avengers didn't go global and start working with the UN until the early 90s.)


Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If you are going to have the Avengers be responsible for the entire world, it seems kind of redundant to have all of these locale teams.


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    X-Men - promote peace between mutants and humans; protect mutantkind
    X-Factor - help mutants adjust to normal lives among humans; protect mutantkind
    New Mutants - X-Men-in-training
    Excalibur - British equivalent of Avengers
    Alpha Flight - Canadian equivalent of Avengers
    Defenders - non-team full of powerful "outcasts;" more of a safe gathering place for antisocial characters such as Hulk, Namor, Silver Surfer, etc.
    Fantastic Four - explorers, science team, and protectors of Earth
    Avengers (East Coast) - strike team to tackle huge menaces
    Avengers (West Coast) - ditto
    New Warriors - "club"/training ground for young heroes
    Nightstalkers - deal with supernatural/paranormal threats
    Heroes for Hire - the comic, however, would be titled "Power Man and Iron Fist;" PM, IF, Misty Knight, and Colleen Wing would handle more "street-level" threats
    S.H.I.E.L.D. - global espionage and security force
    Guardians of the Galaxy - cosmic!


Marvel could only hope that their fans could support this many team books.


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    Oh, it'll boost sales in the short-term. Then Marvel will have to relaunch with a new #1 issue in a few years.



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    Marvel is caught in a really terrible cycle.


I agree. I hate the fact that the ongoing titles have become filler for four months out of the year while big events take place. Marvel keeps trying to reinvent their books but they never tell good stories with the teams they create.




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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908


Kind of agree... my point with Cap was that right from the beginning there have been members connected with other franchises. In fact, even the founding members were more connected with their own franchises than the team... that is kind of the point. "...When earth's mightiest heroes found themselves united against a common threat."

The Avengers, more than the FF, X-Men, Defenders or others are intended to bring heroes together. Iron Man was his own brand. So was Thor, the Hulk, Giant Man/Wasp. So, for me, an Avenger's previous connection isn't a deterrent from them joining.

WCA #4 (I think it was issue 4) is a great example of this. The Thing joins and a lot of the discussion has to do with what a coup it would be to have a former member of the FF join the Avengers. I think if members of other "franchises" join it should be a bigger deal... I don't think that becoming a member has the same status as it used to. THAT is my issue... not what franchises new members were connected with.

As far as Crystal only being loosely tied to the FF... She had at least 2 stints as a member. I know the second stint was fairly long. How much closer should the ties be?

I realize that you addressed Justice, Firestar, Beast and Namor in your initial post. Did you notice I was going through the members in a basically chronological manner and indicating which ones had ties to other franchises?


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Harlock999




First of all, it seems I might be a bit older than you. (Sucks feeling old!) Anyway, I'm 39 and have been reading comics since the late-70s/early-80s.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Actually, Byrne's Nebula story from the early 90s illustrated why Cap wouldn't want Spider-Man on his team. It also pointed out why Spidey wouldn't want in on the Avengers.



    Quote:
    I don't have that one. Care to summarize?


Yeah, the story ran in 1990 from Avengers issue #s 314-318. Basically, the entire universe disappears, Nebula is the threat, the Stranger shows up, and Sersi joins the team. Oh, and so does Spider-Man.

You see, Spidey helps Thor protect some civilians and accompanies him back to the remains of Avengers mansion (this storyline happened hot on the heels of "Acts of Vengeance"). There, Spidey continues to help out ... and Cap ends up offering him membership, which Spider-Man finally accepts.

However... Through the course of the adventure, Spidey's continually freaking out at all of the cosmic events, his sense of humor (used to try to mask his freaking out) starts to grate on his fellow Avengers, and in the end? Well, Spidey wants out. Cap asks him to reconsider. Spidey still wants out. And Cap reflects that things probably worked out for the best as Spider-man really isn't Avengers material.

So it really boils down to the fact that Spider-Man feels more at ease operating alone, prefers dealing with less cosmic/epic threats, and is possibly just a bit too immature to hang out with the likes of Thor, Iron Man, and Cap.

BTW, the lineup in this story was Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Vision, Sersi, and Spidey.

Pretty good story, with some great artwork by Paul Ryan (inked, of course, by Tom Palmer).


    Quote:

      Quote:
      And yeah, I think to preserve the brand identity of the Avengers, the "big three" should be your only "A-listers" (as you put it).



    Quote:
    I think you have to choose between have an Avengers brand in the way you imagine it and having the premier MU super team that responds to all major threats. By having it both ways, you're saying only the Big 3 and their sidekicks can respond to global threats.


I never said the Avengers should be the "premier" superteam. Actually, I think that honor should probably go to the Fantastic Four. The FF are probably regarded more highly around the world (and the universe, for that matter) than the Avengers.

The Avengers are like a combat strike team. And a soldier, divine warrior, and armored knight are the perfect combo to lead such a team.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Millar recognized this with the Ultimates. And Marvel Studios recognized this with their film franchise. (BTW, Hulk works great for the films, less so with the comics; Hulk hasn't been a regular member of the Avengers since the 4th or 5th issue, obviously.)



    Quote:
    Millar was recreating what was already there. It wouldn't have made sense to add people like Spider-man. However, if Marvel owned the film rights to Spider-man, I wouldn't bet against him making an appearance in Avengers.


Actually, that's not true. In fact, Millar insisted he be allowed to use the "classic" characters; he was facing a lot of pressure to include more "premier" names in the book. But Millar felt he could make the original Avengers interesting and relevant for the Ultimates.

And he was, of course, correct.

BTW, if Marvel owned the rights to Spider-Man... Well, who knows if he would be included in the Avengers? A ton of fans seem to think so, but if you're basing the film franchise on the Ultimates (which Marvel have so far), then Spidey really doesn't fit. Plus, there's a pretty big age difference between Peter Parker and the likes of Stark, Rogers, Banner, Barton, etc.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm still a bit torn on the "Power Man and Iron Fist" members. No matter how much you try to separate them? Or give them their own series over the years? People will ALWAYS remember them best as ... "Power Man and Iron Fist."



    Quote:
    I was introduced to both characters individually, so I'm not overly loyal to the team book (Cage hasn't even been called that in quite some time). I think their friendship is one of their defining traits, and that Heroes for Hire team/angle is original enough exist on its own in the MU.


Maybe this is an age thing. But for me and my friends, it's really hard to separate the two characters.

And Luke Cage will always be Power Man to me.

But know he is actually going by the name Power Man in the new Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon. Just fyi.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      X-Men - promote peace between mutants and humans; protect mutantkind
      X-Factor - help mutants adjust to normal lives among humans; protect mutantkind
      New Mutants - X-Men-in-training
      Excalibur - British equivalent of Avengers
      Alpha Flight - Canadian equivalent of Avengers
      Defenders - non-team full of powerful "outcasts;" more of a safe gathering place for antisocial characters such as Hulk, Namor, Silver Surfer, etc.
      Fantastic Four - explorers, science team, and protectors of Earth
      Avengers (East Coast) - strike team to tackle huge menaces
      Avengers (West Coast) - ditto
      New Warriors - "club"/training ground for young heroes
      Nightstalkers - deal with supernatural/paranormal threats
      Heroes for Hire - the comic, however, would be titled "Power Man and Iron Fist;" PM, IF, Misty Knight, and Colleen Wing would handle more "street-level" threats
      S.H.I.E.L.D. - global espionage and security force
      Guardians of the Galaxy - cosmic!



    Quote:
    Marvel could only hope that their fans could support this many team books.


This used to be a non-issue. Back in the "good old days."

Now, however? If a team's not tied to Avengers or X-Men, well, it soon will be. hahahaha




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Harlock999





    Quote:
    Kind of agree... my point with Cap was that right from the beginning there have been members connected with other franchises. In fact, even the founding members were more connected with their own franchises than the team... that is kind of the point. "...When earth's mightiest heroes found themselves united against a common threat."



    Quote:
    The Avengers, more than the FF, X-Men, Defenders or others are intended to bring heroes together. Iron Man was his own brand. So was Thor, the Hulk, Giant Man/Wasp. So, for me, an Avenger's previous connection isn't a deterrent from them joining.



    Quote:
    WCA #4 (I think it was issue 4) is a great example of this. The Thing joins and a lot of the discussion has to do with what a coup it would be to have a former member of the FF join the Avengers. I think if members of other "franchises" join it should be a bigger deal... I don't think that becoming a member has the same status as it used to. THAT is my issue... not what franchises new members were connected with.



    Quote:
    As far as Crystal only being loosely tied to the FF... She had at least 2 stints as a member. I know the second stint was fairly long. How much closer should the ties be?



    Quote:
    I realize that you addressed Justice, Firestar, Beast and Namor in your initial post. Did you notice I was going through the members in a basically chronological manner and indicating which ones had ties to other franchises?


Sorry, I didn't notice the chronological walkthrough, no.

But hey, I think whent it really boils down to it? We're pretty much on the same page. 8\-\)




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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908


Yep, I guess we are!


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tobyboy




>Also, the Avengers have almost always lent Xavier's group a hand when they needed it most. Magneto's "rehabilitation" aside...

Not so! I'm not a fan of Cyclops or Emma Frost but they speak the truth when they say the Avengers were never there for them: The Avengers have battled Sentinels but never the the Sentinel Program. M-Day? Where were the Avengers after M-Day when one of their own (she herself a mutant) destroyed the mutant race? AvX brings this to a head: "Captain America comes out of AvX and recognizes that he hasn’t done enough to help the mutants." --Marvel NOW promo.


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