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Tate Walters




My complaint is not with the ficitonal characters, rather it is with the inconsistency that they are being written.

Scott, along with the other X-men who were hosts for the Phoenix, are being treated like total villians. This is completely unfair because it has been shown over and over again that people who are hosts of the Phoenix are not in control of their actions. Scott even begged to be killed is a brief moment of having control. Also, it wasn't Scott's desire to become a host for the Phoenix. That only happened because of the Avengers intervention. Until he was possessed he believed it was intened for Hope (which the Avenegers fought only to eventually agree with and prove Scott right in the first place.)

My other complaint is that numerous heroes have committed great crimes and suffered little to no punishment (some were not in control as was the case for Scott and some were)

1. Scarlet Witch: Killed the Vision, Killed Hawkeye, Killed Scott Lang, Killed Jack of Hearts, drove She-Hulk insane, stripped Millions of mutants of their powers which directly resulted in numerous deaths.....She is now an Avenger suffering no jail time.

2. Hulk: Nearly destroyed New York to get back at the Illuminati heroes who betrayed him. In his own book he recently went insane and was responsible for many deaths.....he is now an Avenger(He was imprisioned for a little bit)

3. Red Hulk: Of his own free will he murdered the Abombination and attacked every Aveger he could....he is now an Avenger (He was imprisioned for a little bit)

4. Wolverine: while under under the control of others has slaughters untold numbers of innocents....He is now an Avenger (No jail time)

5. Wonderman: Attacked the Avengers in thier homes, beat them senseless and is now being offered a friendly hand of help (which I think should be extened to Scott as well).

6. Venom (The Symbiote not Flash): has murdered and maimed numerous individuals....He's an Avenger (granted he's being controlled by Flash and the government).

7. Iron-Man: murdered Yellow Jacket II and the Nanny for Quick Silver's daughter. Both characters are still dead and Iron-Man never served a day in jail and he's an Avenger.

8. Winter Soilder: While under Soviet control, murdered numerous individuals including Nomad. He did some jail time in Russia, but otherwise he was welcomed into the Avengers and even made Captain America.

I'm sure the list is much longer in Avengers and X-Men who have committed crimes as bad or worse than Cyclops (While being controlled as he was or otherwise). They were all treated better than he has been.


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Mt Dew Drinker




Someone needs to be the fall-guy. The gov't, the people, everyone is now screaming in the after-math for someone to take responsibility. The Gov't and the innocent people won't stand for anything less. They either need someone to take the fall (become the fall-guy) or assume full responsibility for it all happening. Cosmic entity possessed us all to do those evil deeds won't cut it. It rarely does. Sure, the hero's and villains who united to put and end to it all understand, but those outside those groups won't.

Scott knows this and that's why he's allowing himself to be martyred for the cause. It's why he didn't even resist arrest once it was all over with. He's taking one on the chin for all mutant-kind and saying to everyone, "It's my fault, put all the blame on me." So that all the suspicion and blame don't fall on other Mutants unnecessarily.




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Century: Your Alien Hero




And when I say that, I mean "Everything they've done with him over the last decade" (well, just over a decade). They turned him into Telepathic Adultery Man, and then into the militant isolationist extremist who became the type of person who'd become New Dark Phoenix, kill people and show no remorse. Trouble is, so many more people like the "new" Cyclops we've had from around 2001 onwards and find him more "interesting" that we'll never, ever get the old one back, outside of this time-travel teenage X-Men shenanigans going on soon.


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emerick man 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Purely playing devil's advocate (but not the one during Shadowland kills)...


    Quote:
    My complaint is not with the ficitonal characters, rather it is with the inconsistency that they are being written.





    Quote:
    My other complaint is that numerous heroes have committed great crimes and suffered little to no punishment (some were not in control as was the case for Scott and some were)



    Quote:
    1. Scarlet Witch: Killed the Vision, Killed Hawkeye, Killed Scott Lang, Killed Jack of Hearts, drove She-Hulk insane, stripped Millions of mutants of their powers which directly resulted in numerous deaths.....She is now an Avenger suffering no jail time.

Some will say went mad, or blame Doom, or yup.

    Quote:
    2. Hulk: Nearly destroyed New York to get back at the Illuminati heroes who betrayed him. In his own book he recently went insane and was responsible for many deaths.....he is now an Avenger(He was imprisioned for a little bit)

Some will say responsible for much (more) damage than (direct) death.

    Quote:
    3. Red Hulk: Of his own free will he murdered the Abombination and attacked every Aveger he could....he is now an Avenger (He was imprisioned for a little bit)

Some will commend his avenging his daughter.

    Quote:
    4. Wolverine: while under under the control of others has slaughters untold numbers of innocents....He is now an Avenger (No jail time)

Some will point out while NOT under control of others too.
Wolverin#314

    Quote:
    5. Wonderman: Attacked the Avengers in thier homes, beat them senseless and is now being offered a friendly hand of help (which I think should be extened to Scott as well).

Some will chalk it up to typical hero meets hero fight.

    Quote:
    6. Venom (The Symbiote not Flash): has murdered and maimed numerous individuals....He's an Avenger (granted he's being controlled by Flash and the government).

Some will say Flash is in control.

    Quote:
    7. Iron-Man: murdered Yellow Jacket II and the Nanny for Quick Silver's daughter. Both characters are still dead and Iron-Man never served a day in jail and he's an Avenger.

Some will blame Kang.

    Quote:
    8. Winter Soilder: While under Soviet control, murdered numerous individuals including Nomad. He did some jail time in Russia, but otherwise he was welcomed into the Avengers and even made Captain America.

Some will say brainwashing is reasonable defense.

    Quote:
    I'm sure the list is much longer in Avengers and X-Men who have committed crimes as bad or worse than Cyclops (While being controlled as he was or otherwise). They were all treated better than he has been.







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Skull1





    Quote:
    Someone needs to be the fall-guy. The gov't, the people, everyone is now screaming in the after-math for someone to take responsibility. The Gov't and the innocent people won't stand for anything less. They either need someone to take the fall (become the fall-guy) or assume full responsibility for it all happening. Cosmic entity possessed us all to do those evil deeds won't cut it. It rarely does. Sure, the hero's and villains who united to put and end to it all understand, but those outside those groups won't.



    Quote:
    Scott knows this and that's why he's allowing himself to be martyred for the cause. It's why he didn't even resist arrest once it was all over with. He's taking one on the chin for all mutant-kind and saying to everyone, "It's my fault, put all the blame on me." So that all the suspicion and blame don't fall on other Mutants unnecessarily.


Did Wolverine, etal ever served jail time or any sort of punishment for the deaths that they caused? Seems like Scott Summers is more of a man than all of them combined...




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Mt Dew Drinker




The Marvel-verse gov't is willing to turn a blind eye to the occasional killing, accidental or even purposeful, IF you are a hero who has done a whole lot of saving. After all, the Hulk got a Presidential pardon when he saved the world.

But when you do something so drastic as what Scott did, and it's effects are so wide-spread, they'll need someone to take the fall, they'll need someone to be the Villain they can make a face and example of. Scott is apparently willing to be that face, that villain, and I suspect when he comes to trial he'll tell the judge about how the Phoenix possess him and all the others, but that they need to let the others go because they didn't volunteer like he did, something like that, so that he can plea-bargain his way into being the Martyr that the cause needs and that the Gov't can have to assuage the masses.




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Michael





    Quote:
    Did Wolverine, etal ever served jail time or any sort of punishment for the deaths that they caused? Seems like Scott Summers is more of a man than all of them combined...


Vance went to jail for killing his father.
Beetle/ Mach-Whatever went to jail for killing Jarod Goulding.

Michael


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Tate Walters




I hear you, and I agree. But why not say the same for Cyclops. He was no more in control than the others.


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Tate Walters





    Quote:
    Someone needs to be the fall-guy. The gov't, the people, everyone is now screaming in the after-math for someone to take responsibility. The Gov't and the innocent people won't stand for anything less. They either need someone to take the fall (become the fall-guy) or assume full responsibility for it all happening. Cosmic entity possessed us all to do those evil deeds won't cut it. It rarely does. Sure, the hero's and villains who united to put and end to it all understand, but those outside those groups won't.



    Quote:
    Scott knows this and that's why he's allowing himself to be martyred for the cause. It's why he didn't even resist arrest once it was all over with. He's taking one on the chin for all mutant-kind and saying to everyone, "It's my fault, put all the blame on me." So that all the suspicion and blame don't fall on other Mutants unnecessarily.


First of all, I love your response. I had not looked at Scott's surrender in this point of view. However, your statement that the guys in the fight all understand doesn't hold up. Because they are the ones placing blame and not trying at all to help Scott at this time, they aren't even offering him therapy or a friendly ear. They are just saying, "you killed Xavier."

As for someone needing to be the fall guy...I repeat my previous list of characters. And add Dare Devil for all the crimes he committed during Shadow Lands (didn't read it, just heard bits and pieces).


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Tate Walters





    Quote:
    The Marvel-verse gov't is willing to turn a blind eye to the occasional killing, accidental or even purposeful, IF you are a hero who has done a whole lot of saving. After all, the Hulk got a Presidential pardon when he saved the world.



    Quote:
    But when you do something so drastic as what Scott did, and it's effects are so wide-spread, they'll need someone to take the fall, they'll need someone to be the Villain they can make a face and example of. Scott is apparently willing to be that face, that villain, and I suspect when he comes to trial he'll tell the judge about how the Phoenix possess him and all the others, but that they need to let the others go because they didn't volunteer like he did, something like that, so that he can plea-bargain his way into being the Martyr that the cause needs and that the Gov't can have to assuage the masses.


Scarlet Witch killed hundreds of people. Her actions effected the whole world. And Scott didn't volunteer to become the Phoenix. He thought it should go to Hope until the Avngers intervened and he became the Phoenix Host by accident. Everything that happened after that was out of his control.


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emerick man 

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


> I hear you, and I agree. But why not say the same for Cyclops. He was no more in control than the others.


That's fair to say, a devil's advocate can be debatable.




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Skull1




Cyclops must have surrendered voluntary to lessen human hatred against the mutant race. In the same vein that Captain America ceased hostilities even if he had the upper hand against his fight against Iron Man.

One possible way for Scott to walk free is if mutant aggression against humans becomes uncontrollable, Captain America might be willing to strike a deal as Scott to turn the tide. Number one hero among homo sapiens superior would carry a huge clout in pacifying the mutant community


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bd2999

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    My complaint is not with the ficitonal characters, rather it is with the inconsistency that they are being written.


I think it is generally a problem of comics to not hold a hero responsible and if they do not for very long.


    Quote:
    Scott, along with the other X-men who were hosts for the Phoenix, are being treated like total villians. This is completely unfair because it has been shown over and over again that people who are hosts of the Phoenix are not in control of their actions. Scott even begged to be killed is a brief moment of having control. Also, it wasn't Scott's desire to become a host for the Phoenix. That only happened because of the Avengers intervention. Until he was possessed he believed it was intened for Hope (which the Avenegers fought only to eventually agree with and prove Scott right in the first place.)


I think the argument that it is the Avengers fault is very weak. Yes, it would have not happened like it did if they let it go. But they just had word that this thing destroyed multiple planets on the way so stopping it was key. They did what they could, and that is that. So it was a failure to protect the Earth but Scott was already on interesting ground wanting the PF to come and do something that it had never done before.


    Quote:
    My other complaint is that numerous heroes have committed great crimes and suffered little to no punishment (some were not in control as was the case for Scott and some were)


This is a better argument IMO and is a comic problem in general and lazy writters.


    Quote:
    1. Scarlet Witch: Killed the Vision, Killed Hawkeye, Killed Scott Lang, Killed Jack of Hearts, drove She-Hulk insane, stripped Millions of mutants of their powers which directly resulted in numerous deaths.....She is now an Avenger suffering no jail time.


Agreed. Although with this one they could not find her or even knew that she was alive for quite a while. I think the reason she came back so easily or was allowed had to do with personel biases to liking her and the fact that she was the only edge they had.


    Quote:
    2. Hulk: Nearly destroyed New York to get back at the Illuminati heroes who betrayed him. In his own book he recently went insane and was responsible for many deaths.....he is now an Avenger(He was imprisioned for a little bit)


This one I agree with. It was odd how things were treated after WWH. That he got out and it was not everyone's top priority to get him back.


    Quote:
    3. Red Hulk: Of his own free will he murdered the Abombination and attacked every Aveger he could....he is now an Avenger (He was imprisioned for a little bit)


AGain, I agree.


    Quote:
    4. Wolverine: while under under the control of others has slaughters untold numbers of innocents....He is now an Avenger (No jail time)


The mind control thing helps him I think. It is bad but intention and all makes it harder to argue. I am not sure how mind control holds up in court but it matters.


    Quote:
    5. Wonderman: Attacked the Avengers in thier homes, beat them senseless and is now being offered a friendly hand of help (which I think should be extened to Scott as well).



Yeah


    Quote:
    6. Venom (The Symbiote not Flash): has murdered and maimed numerous individuals....He's an Avenger (granted he's being controlled by Flash and the government).


Yup, it is dumb.


    Quote:
    7. Iron-Man: murdered Yellow Jacket II and the Nanny for Quick Silver's daughter. Both characters are still dead and Iron-Man never served a day in jail and he's an Avenger.


I have to remember the context of the YJ one.


    Quote:
    8. Winter Soilder: While under Soviet control, murdered numerous individuals including Nomad. He did some jail time in Russia, but otherwise he was welcomed into the Avengers and even made Captain America.



    Quote:
    I'm sure the list is much longer in Avengers and X-Men who have committed crimes as bad or worse than Cyclops (While being controlled as he was or otherwise). They were all treated better than he has been.







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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Vance went to jail for killing his father.

For what, a month? It would really have to be to make since in the sliding timeline.

And calling it "jail" is questionable, too. He was basically given a job.




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


As I said in your thread on the X-Men board, it's not like Scott Summers wasn't guilty of the same sort of skewed sense of justice as Fuhrer of Utopia. He let some really disgusting villains walk around while locking up the truly repentant and heroic. And what passed for trial by jury was absurd, as well.

Poetic justice for Scott? Perhaps.




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hawkeye2099


Member Since: Tue Dec 02, 2008
Posts: 908


Vance was willing to go to jail to serve his time... if circumstances change once he was in jail that doesn't negate his willingness to serve his time.

Abner willingly went to jail twice. The first time the Commission released him and tried to blackmail him into working for them. The second time he served his sentence.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Vance went to jail for killing his father.

    For what, a month? It would really have to be to make since in the sliding timeline.


He was released after 9 months comic time I believe. I think the comics actually said it had been 9 months but I could be off a bit.

He was sentenced in New Warriors 25 and was paroled in New Warriors 43



    Quote:
    And calling it "jail" is questionable, too. He was basically given a job.


He was sent to the Vault. He was put in power dampening restraints.

I don't think you know what you're talking about in this case.






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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Vance went to jail for killing his father.

      For what, a month? It would really have to be to make since in the sliding timeline.

    He was released after 9 months comic time I believe. I think the comics actually said it had been 9 months but I could be off a bit.

    He was sentenced in New Warriors 25 and was paroled in New Warriors 43

So... yup. A month.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      And calling it "jail" is questionable, too. He was basically given a job.



    Quote:
    He was sent to the Vault. He was put in power dampening restraints.

I don't think you know what you're talking about in this case.

I know precisely what I'm talking about. For his incarceration, he pretty much worked at the Vault.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Michael





    Quote:
    For what, a month? It would really have to be to make since in the sliding timeline.


    Quote:
    He was released after 9 months comic time I believe. I think the comics actually said it had been 9 months but I could be off a bit.



    Quote:
    He was sentenced in New Warriors 25 and was paroled in New Warriors 43


    Quote:
    So... yup. A month.


He was in jail for nine months. If you try to apply the sliding timeline, Wanda's and Maddie' s pregnancies and Sue's second pregnanacy only lasted a month or two. Don't think about it too hard.

Michael


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Tate Walters




I have not collected X-Men since the whole vampire thing (it was a good jump off point for me). So I can not argue with or defend what you wrote.


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Beltane71





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Beltane71





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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:

      Quote:
      For what, a month? It would really have to be to make since in the sliding timeline.


      Quote:
      He was released after 9 months comic time I believe. I think the comics actually said it had been 9 months but I could be off a bit.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        He was sentenced in New Warriors 25 and was paroled in New Warriors 43


        Quote:
        So... yup. A month.



    Quote:
    He was in jail for nine months. If you try to apply the sliding timeline, Wanda's and Maddie' s pregnancies and Sue's second pregnanacy only lasted a month or two. Don't think about it too hard.


Exactly. He's being needlessly pedantic about the sliding time scale.

When the comic itself says something took place over 9 months...it took place over 9 months.

And he didn't work for the vault.





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Silver





    Quote:
    it's not like Scott Summers wasn't guilty of the same sort of skewed sense of justice

If it was so skewed, why was it that no one actually cared what he was doing before AvX. The only reaction he ever got from the other X-men was them walking away. Wonder if things would have turned out different if Logan, Beast, Rogue and Bobby had been next to Scott when the Phoenix broke up instead of the other P5 members.


    Quote:
    He let some really disgusting villains walk around

Yes there was Magneto and some former Acolytes among others. But it's not like it was a secret from law enforcement who was on the island. The Dark Avengers fight was televised. Wolverine could and probably did at some point give the Avengers a list of island residents. Not Scott's fault no one tried to serve any warrants on his citizens.

And let's not forget Frenzy, Toad and Quire are residents of the JGS.


    Quote:
    while locking up the truly repentant and heroic

Who in the world are you talking about? Everyone that comes to mind who was in Danger's prison was trying to destroy Utopia or its individual residents.


    Quote:
    And what passed for trial by jury was absurd, as well

Even Osborn deserved a trial, why he never got one was ridiculous though. Doesn't matter how you twist the events of AvX, Scott did not want to be possessed by the Phoenix, he was, it controlled and corrupted him. Being glad mutants are emerging and not regretting creating Utopia does not make him guilty in America.


    Quote:
    Poetic justice for Scott?

Poetic justice is for Captain America to experience first hand why the X-men had to prioritize their own moral guidelines and second (through fifth) chances for mutants rather than allowing the criminal justice system to do its job.


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Tate Walters






    Quote:
    And he didn't work for the vault.


He volunteered to assist in training excercises with the Guardsmen (I think that was what they were called). He was basically a trusted inmate at the prison.


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Yo




yes I know-at least to my knowledge- he didn´t kill anyone...but how he did pay for trying world dominance. He paid with his life, later with his marriage and nowdays he is not even used by writers any more even if he is a powerhouse.
And all in all he is one of the best guys Avengers have...



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