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Reverend Meteor




Thanos's mother Sui-San



Thanos's other mother Kazantra



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TJ Burns





While this is definitely a case of "nobody asked Starlin about his plot", it's easily explained by what we know about Mentor, which is that he makes his son Eros look like a piker with the ladies. \:\)


TJB


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

    While this is definitely a case of "nobody asked Starlin about his plot", it's easily explained by what we know about Mentor, which is that he makes his son Eros look like a piker with the ladies. \:\)



Well the questions I have

1. Is Kazantra Thanos's mother or step-mother?
2. Is Sui-San Eros's mother or step-mother?
3. Are Sui-San and Kazantra the same person?
4. Could Thanos be Sui-San's son but Eros be Kazantra's son?
5. Kazantra is shown with 3 children. Thanos must be her step-child if she isn't Sui-San. Eros might be one of the other two...but who is Mentor's third kid? Presumably Mentor has had numerous children over the ages but Thanos and Eros are supposed to be the last two if memory serves. It appears they have a younger brother or maybe even a brother younger than Thanos but older than Stafox.
6. If Moondragon came to Titan as a child after her parents were killed and played with Thanos who was also a child...then how did an adult Thanos kill Heather's parents?


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Tom






    Quote:

    Well the questions I have



    Quote:
    1. Is Kazantra Thanos's mother or step-mother?
    2. Is Sui-San Eros's mother or step-mother?
    3. Are Sui-San and Kazantra the same person?
    4. Could Thanos be Sui-San's son but Eros be Kazantra's son?
    5. Kazantra is shown with 3 children. Thanos must be her step-child if she isn't Sui-San. Eros might be one of the other two...but who is Mentor's third kid? Presumably Mentor has had numerous children over the ages but Thanos and Eros are supposed to be the last two if memory serves. It appears they have a younger brother or maybe even a brother younger than Thanos but older than Stafox.
    6. If Moondragon came to Titan as a child after her parents were killed and played with Thanos who was also a child...then how did an adult Thanos kill Heather's parents?


This seems to be as definitive an answer as you're going to get...

Strangely, Kazantra's backstory is glaringly inconsistent with the origins of Mentor, Titan, Thanos and Moondragon given in Captain Marvel I#29, which came out at almost the exact same time. Moondragon was supposed to have been orphaned when Thanos killed her parents, but he is depicted as a child at the same time as her in the Daredevil I#105 flashback. Also, Mentor's wife in the other origin was Sui-San, and she has been universally declared to be the mother of Thanos and Eros, not Kazantra.

Starlin explained on the letters page of Captain Marvel I#29 that the origin for Moondragon seen in Daredevil had been developed by him a year earlier, and was intended for use in an issue of Iron Man.

Possibly Kazantra was one of several wives Mentor kept...one gets the idea that Titan had a shortage of males.

Taken from: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/kazantra.htm



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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


The early Thanos stories are pretty inconsistent; essentially, Starlin was an artist who wanted work as a writer, and Friedrich let him co-plot all sorts of stuff in whatever books were available. Additionally, Steve Engelhart and Steve Gerber wrote tie-ins to the Friedrich/Starlin Captain Marvel stories, with Engelhart taking a particular interest in developing Moondragon.

As a result, you get all sorts of weird inconsistencies. One early flashback to Moondragon's childhood shows child-Thanos there, which contradicts everything since. Thanos's first appearance shows that all the "Titans" are purple-skinned.

There're also a few things that were changed or quietly ignored later on. The big one is that the Titans, under Starlin, were clearly meant to be *the* Titans of Greek myth, not Eternals in exile. But a few others are striking as well. In the 1970s stories, Thanos's power seems concentrated in his eyebeams, probably a legacy of his beginnings as a mashup of Darkseid and Metron of Kirby's New Gods series. The Blood Brothers' symbiotic link is nowhere in evidence in Starlin's stories; it seems to have been invented by Jim Shooter and Archie Goodwin in a story in Iron Man. (Starlin's idea was that they were blood-drinkers.)

One of the odder elements is that Starlin starts the whole shebang with the idea that the Destroyer, later Drax the Destroyer, is Thanos's archfoe and a huge threat to him. However, as the original Thanos series goes on, Drax becomes kind of a minor annoyance at best, a guy who accomplishes essentially nothing at all and is routinely outwitted or just plain beaten up by Thanos. This may explain why Starlin resurrected Drax as comic relief in the 1990s. Clearly, his plans for his space epic changed as soon as he could use characters like Mar-Vell and Adam Warlock.

All of this leaves lots of room for wacky speculation, but some of it will still point to plain inconsistencies in the planning and execution of the stories.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    The early Thanos stories are pretty inconsistent; essentially, Starlin was an artist who wanted work as a writer, and Friedrich let him co-plot all sorts of stuff in whatever books were available. Additionally, Steve Engelhart and Steve Gerber wrote tie-ins to the Friedrich/Starlin Captain Marvel stories, with Engelhart taking a particular interest in developing Moondragon.



    Quote:
    As a result, you get all sorts of weird inconsistencies. One early flashback to Moondragon's childhood shows child-Thanos there, which contradicts everything since. Thanos's first appearance shows that all the "Titans" are purple-skinned.



    Quote:
    There're also a few things that were changed or quietly ignored later on. The big one is that the Titans, under Starlin, were clearly meant to be *the* Titans of Greek myth, not Eternals in exile. But a few others are striking as well. In the 1970s stories, Thanos's power seems concentrated in his eyebeams, probably a legacy of his beginnings as a mashup of Darkseid and Metron of Kirby's New Gods series. The Blood Brothers' symbiotic link is nowhere in evidence in Starlin's stories; it seems to have been invented by Jim Shooter and Archie Goodwin in a story in Iron Man. (Starlin's idea was that they were blood-drinkers.)



    Quote:
    One of the odder elements is that Starlin starts the whole shebang with the idea that the Destroyer, later Drax the Destroyer, is Thanos's archfoe and a huge threat to him. However, as the original Thanos series goes on, Drax becomes kind of a minor annoyance at best, a guy who accomplishes essentially nothing at all and is routinely outwitted or just plain beaten up by Thanos. This may explain why Starlin resurrected Drax as comic relief in the 1990s. Clearly, his plans for his space epic changed as soon as he could use characters like Mar-Vell and Adam Warlock.



    Quote:
    All of this leaves lots of room for wacky speculation, but some of it will still point to plain inconsistencies in the planning and execution of the stories.


Very interesting. Thanks for the input.


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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


I always wondered why Eros ended up as such an ineffectual character in Starlin's stories. The whole Eros/Thanos naming scheme is a big Freud reference to the opposition of the sex drive and the death drive. In theory, Eros is a balance for Thanos. I wonder if Starlin just couldn't make a swinger superhero work, or what?

Speaking of Eros, his whole "love power" is another post-Starlin idea. Starlin just showed Eros as a happy-go-lucky/happily-get-lucky type with some generic super-strength. Also, Mentor seems like kind of a crappy father, doesn't he? One of his sons turns out to be a genocidal or omnicidal maniac, the other is a hedonistic slacker with the world's creepiest super-power.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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TJ Burns





In fairness to Mentor, the other million or so kids he has turned out just fine. \:\)



TJB


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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


Weren't most of them blown to atomic ash by Thanos?

…what, too soon?




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Weren't most of them blown to atomic ash by Thanos?



    Quote:
    …what, too soon?


I'm assuming the Dragon of the Moon was involved behind the scenes on that one. He helped bring about the destruction of Titan the first time around I think.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    I always wondered why Eros ended up as such an ineffectual character in Starlin's stories. The whole Eros/Thanos naming scheme is a big Freud reference to the opposition of the sex drive and the death drive. In theory, Eros is a balance for Thanos. I wonder if Starlin just couldn't make a swinger superhero work, or what?

    Speaking of Eros, his whole "love power" is another post-Starlin idea. Starlin just showed Eros as a happy-go-lucky/happily-get-lucky type with some generic super-strength. Also, Mentor seems like kind of a crappy father, doesn't he? One of his sons turns out to be a genocidal or omnicidal maniac, the other is a hedonistic slacker with the world's creepiest super-power.

"Love power" doesn't really work well in an action-oriented medium.

Thanos was born bad. Nothing Mentor could have done would prevent the monster.

And there's nothing at all wrong with being a hedonist. Right, Sersi?




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


Ah, but recall, Eros didn't start out with any such power. Under Starlin, he was super-strong and possibly was meant to have the same energy powers as Mentor. More broadly, since Starlin was riffing on the Fourth World stuff, Eros could have been something along the lines of Lightray.

But it's true that Eros's power as later established wasn't much, especially not against a villain who's whole *problem* is that he has for many a time been way more than half in love with less-than-easeful Death.

And while there's nothing wrong with being a hedonist superdoer, it helps if, like Sersi, you can bring it against party crashers, space pirates, and would-be world-enders. Eros, as you note, can't.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 6.1.1 on MacOS X
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Ah, but recall, Eros didn't start out with any such power. Under Starlin, he was super-strong and possibly was meant to have the same energy powers as Mentor. More broadly, since Starlin was riffing on the Fourth World stuff, Eros could have been something along the lines of Lightray.



    Quote:
    But it's true that Eros's power as later established wasn't much, especially not against a villain who's whole *problem* is that he has for many a time been way more than half in love with less-than-easeful Death.



    Quote:
    And while there's nothing wrong with being a hedonist superdoer, it helps if, like Sersi, you can bring it against party crashers, space pirates, and would-be world-enders. Eros, as you note, can't.


Well with the exception of Thanos who has had enhancements I always assumed the Titan Eternals were a bit weaker than the Earth Eternals.




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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


Right, but when Starlin first created these guys, they were intended as offshoots of the Greek gods with (potentially) a variety of powers linked to the concepts they represented. Instead, Thanos is a self-made cosmic tank and Mentor can toss around a few power bolts. Kirby hadn't even created the Eternals at the original time of publication, and the Titans weren't named as Eternals until somewhere in the 1980s. I can't recall if this was Roy Thomas in Thor or Roger Stern in Avengers, or someone else entirely, who cemented the notion that the Titans were Earth Eternal offshoots. And then there's the Uranian Eternals who are tied up with Quasar and 1950s Marvel Boy and have been retconned two or three times over, too.

In continuity terms, it's interesting that Mentor has some form of the Eternal energy powers, but his children with Sui-San (or Kazantra?) are, in different ways, way off-model for Eternal powers. Thanos is a mutant Eternal, which isn't supposed to be possible -- Eternals are perfectly genetically stable in contrast to the radically genetically unstable Deviants -- and Eros lacks the energy powers and instead has only a very specific psionic ability plus the standard flying brick talents.

Many years ago (like 10+), there was a MASSIVE thread on this board where we looked at the sprawling, weird, and mysterious continuity connections between the Celestial Madonna stuff, the Eternals/Celestials/Deviants of many worlds, Starlin's Thanos sagas, and some other cosmic hoo-ha. It's surprising how many things pull together. As I recall, we ended up thinking the Cotati were up to something. That's long since vanished, so there's no reason not to try it all again here, especially now that newer and stranger things have happened with some of those properties….




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 6.1.1 on MacOS X
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Right, but when Starlin first created these guys, they were intended as offshoots of the Greek gods with (potentially) a variety of powers linked to the concepts they represented. Instead, Thanos is a self-made cosmic tank and Mentor can toss around a few power bolts. Kirby hadn't even created the Eternals at the original time of publication, and the Titans weren't named as Eternals until somewhere in the 1980s. I can't recall if this was Roy Thomas in Thor or Roger Stern in Avengers, or someone else entirely, who cemented the notion that the Titans were Earth Eternal offshoots. And then there's the Uranian Eternals who are tied up with Quasar and 1950s Marvel Boy and have been retconned two or three times over, too.



    Quote:
    In continuity terms, it's interesting that Mentor has some form of the Eternal energy powers, but his children with Sui-San (or Kazantra?) are, in different ways, way off-model for Eternal powers. Thanos is a mutant Eternal, which isn't supposed to be possible -- Eternals are perfectly genetically stable in contrast to the radically genetically unstable Deviants -- and Eros lacks the energy powers and instead has only a very specific psionic ability plus the standard flying brick talents.


I think the most logical explanation that can explain Thanos having the Deviant syndrome is Sui San must be descended from some strain of Deviant.

Which means someone in Uranos's group was descended from Deviants. My totally unsupportable guess is that Sui San is the daughter of Uranos and his follower Shastra and Shastra was a Skrull infiltrator. Granted that means Mentor slept with his cousin but like you say he was originally presented as a titan and the titans of myth were way more incesty and took their siblings as spouses.

Another thing is I get Starlin was trying to say the Titans were the Titans of Greek Myth...but clearly the ones we've seen don't match any known titans except Kronos. Uranos in Greek mythology wasn't a Titan....he slept with his mother Gaea and was their progenitor but he wasn't an actual Titan. Eros wasn't a titan he was the son of Aphrodite (so he was like a great-grandchild of the titans). Thanatos was a son of primordial darkness deities Nyx and Erebus. I have no clue who Mentor is supposed to represent in the analogy.




    Quote:
    Many years ago (like 10+), there was a MASSIVE thread on this board where we looked at the sprawling, weird, and mysterious continuity connections between the Celestial Madonna stuff, the Eternals/Celestials/Deviants of many worlds, Starlin's Thanos sagas, and some other cosmic hoo-ha. It's surprising how many things pull together. As I recall, we ended up thinking the Cotati were up to something. That's long since vanished, so there's no reason not to try it all again here, especially now that newer and stranger things have happened with some of those properties….


I vaguely remember that thread and enjoyed it as I had not read the vast stuff that interlinked them. Now I'm kind of caught up through where they stood as of the 90's but any subsequent retcons I'm lost on.

It would be a worthy topic to discuss.

There are a lot of threads to that tapestry:

1. Earth's humans/Eternals/Deviants. The paradigm goes that the Celestials gave humans the potential for mutancy, gave the eternals stable forms and the Deviants are supposed to mutate wildly from offspring to offspring.

2. The Skrull Deviants, the normals and their Eternals as well as the Deviant offshot the Dire Wraiths, and the fact that the Skrull Deviants are still able to have mutants which should be a trait of the slaughtered Normals. (Not so much implying the Normals aside from Prime Skrull survived but rather their descendents have intermingled with Skrull Deviants)

3. The Kree normals both the original blue and the pink Kree that come from a result of them breeding with other races, the kree Eternals, the lack of known Kree Deviants and the Cotati who also evolved on Hala but presumably evolved independent of Celestial interference.

4. The Titan Eternals and the Uranian Eternals and their connection to the Kree and the Kree's creation of the Inhumans from Arlok's corpse...one confusing issue about the Uranian Eternals...Uranos didn't found the Uranian Eternals. He founded the ORIGINAL settlement of Eternals on Titan that was later wiped out in a civil war. Mentor just repopulated Titan with Sui San. Astron founded the Uranian Eternals after Uranos left him and three other followers on Uranus. And honestly I was never quite clear where the protected domes came from on Titan and Uranus and whether that was created by the Kree, the true Uranian aliens or another party.

5. The Earth Eternals and their similarities to the Greek Gods. I believe when the Eternals were reintroduced in Thor after the original Kirby series the Asgardians and the Olympians had never heard of the Eternals and were legitimately shocked to learn of their existence.

6. Are the Cotati connected to the H'ylthri? (simple answer...all signs point to no)

7. The moon where the Skrulls created a blue area of oxygen, the Cotati created a park, and the Kree created a city which the Inhumans parked their own city right next to for a time in the modern age. I'm not sure if Uatu built his citadel there or if just lives in the Kree city that the Kree built in their contest with the Cotati to join the Skrulls trading consortium. I don't think the Cotati garden is still there but I think the Elder of the universe the Gardener resurrected plants on the moon when he had the time gem...I can't remember if Mantlo even knew about the Cotati park on the moon but it makes some sense Gardner would be able to resurrect plant life there.





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TJ Burns




You CAN assume that, but it takes a lot away from Thanos to do so.


TJB


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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


Do we actually know what the DotM is in the cosmic hierarchy? It seems to take credit for stuff that other cosmics have done, like Thanos killing the modern Titans. It does seem to have corrupted Moondragon and it's the only candidate we have for the murder of the original Titan inhabitants, of whom Sui-San is supposedly the only survivor. And it's an old enemy of the Earth Eternal Interloper, who's a weird character in and of himself.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 6.1.1 on MacOS X
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    You CAN assume that, but it takes a lot away from Thanos to do so.



    Quote:

    TJB


Yeah it was a shot in the dark. But then I learned my assumption was not as unsupported as I originally thought


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Do we actually know what the DotM is in the cosmic hierarchy? It seems to take credit for stuff that other cosmics have done, like Thanos killing the modern Titans. It does seem to have corrupted Moondragon and it's the only candidate we have for the murder of the original Titan inhabitants, of whom Sui-San is supposedly the only survivor. And it's an old enemy of the Earth Eternal Interloper, who's a weird character in and of himself.


I haven't found the issue that says it but I've seen websites that claim the Dragon of the Moon is one of the offspring of Set who was a sibling of Chthon and Gaea (Thor's mom/Hercules great-grandmother).



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