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aquamariner


Member Since: Mon Aug 02, 2010
Posts: 1,251


Moon Dragon

Protector

Scarlet Witch

Dr Druid


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Stark did more damage, for me, than any of those.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Reverend Meteor





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    Moon Dragon



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    Protector



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    Scarlet Witch



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    Dr Druid


Weren't most of those being manipulated by others at the time of the betrayal?


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TJ Burns




Not a one of them, since they were all influenced by forces outside of their control. Moondragon by the Dragon of the Moon, Druid by Terminatrix, Scarlet Witch by the Life Entity, and Protector by Minister Mar-Vell.




TJB


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katefan






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naiche




What about poor Pietro Maximoff?


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Comicguy1




Is she back to life again? I know that she died in Guardians Of The Galaxy a few years ago, but has she been seen since? How many times has she died (Or been presumed dead.) anyway?

As for Druid, I never really cared for what I read of him. Has he come back yet?


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katefan




If memory serves she was there at the end when Thanos was subdued by the Guardians. So she's still around, I just think Bendis didn't want to use her in his new Guardians comic. Or Bendis was told specifically who to put in the comic due to the Guardians movie.


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Stupid Baby


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,121


are those the only options?




"I would never want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member" - Groucho Marx
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Stupid Baby


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,121


I surprised / disapointed his name isnt on this list.
To me, and others apperantly, he is the one who soiled the name avengers.





"I would never want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member" - Groucho Marx
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AssemblyRequired





    Quote:
    If memory serves she was there at the end when Thanos was subdued by the Guardians. So she's still around, I just think Bendis didn't want to use her in his new Guardians comic. Or Bendis was told specifically who to put in the comic due to the Guardians movie.



I expect Bendis just didn't want to use Moondragon in GOTG. During AvX, the Avengers were at a tactical disadvantage due to the X-Men having lots of telepaths, and rather than having them call in Moondragon, Bendis retconned in a prior Moondragon/Hawkeye hookup and had Clint say he didn't want the team to use her due to awkwardness.

That's going to a lot of trouble to not use Moondragon.

I guess maybe he was contriving the situation for plot reasons. I only read a preview of that issue, which included the scene in question, so I don't know where the story went from there.

If I were going to have an Avenger insist that Moondragon not be involved, it would be Thor.


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AssemblyRequired





    Quote:
    Is she back to life again? I know that she died in Guardians Of The Galaxy a few years ago, but has she been seen since? How many times has she died (Or been presumed dead.) anyway?



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    As for Druid, I never really cared for what I read of him. Has he come back yet?



He was brought back for the Dead Avengers mini during the Chaos War. He wasn't one of the Avengers that made it out alive though.


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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242


You know, it's kind of irritating that the "we hooked up" retcon has become a default move to instantly create character connections without having to do something radical like actually show them interacting with each other; and in the case of Moondragon, it doesn't even make sense. Her shtick in the Avengers was that she imagines she's a god who has little in common with anyone short of other gods. Hawkeye's pretty much the last person she'd sleep with.

It's hard not to notice that this is almost always done in ways that play to male characters' reputations and shove aside female characters. It's not as if the hookup was used to tell a story about Moondragon, but rather to exclude her from a story. Similarly, we've gotten loads of scenes about superheroines talking about Tony Stark and Matt Murdock, which is great way to turn a conversation between a bunch of female characters into a conversation about how studly a male character is.

Really, it's almost always the opposite of good characterization to suddenly bring in an old hookup as a plot device. When She-Hulk slept with the Juggernaut, as "funny" as a lot of fans found that -- me included, for a while -- in retrospect most of its effect is that it makes Shulkie look like she's not even vaguely serious about her legal career what with "sleeping with a client" being a disbarment offense and all, which in turn kind of diminishes one of the character's more distinctive elements. (Compare Matt Murdock, whose ethical problems around his legal work is never used as a punchline but rather as a source of intense drama.)

The previous nadir was the retroactive reveal of the Sentry-Rogue relationship, which was creepy given that the writer apparently didn't realize a) that the Sentry had been established as in a committed relationship for pretty much all of his history by Bendis and b) that Rogue was extremely inexperienced with intimacy at all because of her powers and had huge hangups that a retconned sexual relationship sort of stomps all over to no good effect.

It's unfortunate that Bendis, one of the few writers who's made this work well, was involved in the clumsy Moondragon thing here (and the rape-y Scarlet Witch amnesia thing that Heinberg had to retcon later on.,..actually, what is it with Bendis making most of Hawkeye's plots about who he's sleeping with?). The whole thing works better if you read it as Hakweye making a creepy joke to get back at a character he never much liked rather than as a reference to an actual thing that happened.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Silver




quite frankly their betrayals were all kept quiet in the Avengers family.

Moondragon and Protector did their stuff off planet. Dr druid was only revealed in that time dimension he was abandoned in. And the Scarlet witch is the dirty little secret the avengers covered up, it's only the guys who remembered House of M, active Avengers since her meltdown, a few former X-factor guys, Young Avengers, Doom and the villains of the Uncanny Avengers who have any idea of the sins she committed.


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AssemblyRequired





    Quote:
    You know, it's kind of irritating that the "we hooked up" retcon has become a default move to instantly create character connections without having to do something radical like actually show them interacting with each other; and in the case of Moondragon, it doesn't even make sense. Her shtick in the Avengers was that she imagines she's a god who has little in common with anyone short of other gods. Hawkeye's pretty much the last person she'd sleep with.


I agree with you completely on both counts!

For a writer to say Moondragon and Hawkeye hooked up IMO shows no understanding of Moondragon whatsoever.

I can't stand retcon hookups. It's lazy writing. I don't even like it when major characters sleep together after just having met, or even worse, when they've known each other for 200 issues and suddenly sleep together without any build-up. It doesn't mean anything to the reader that way. Or worse, you find yourself going "that would never happen!"

It doesn't even take much to have us as readers wanting two characters to become a couple. You just have to do it gradually. I'm not saying there can't be some casual sex happening here and there in comics, but I'd rather those scenes involve a throwaway character being brought in as the one-night-stand rather than dragging in somebody who is already well established, because they generally aren't portrayed with enough respect.



    Quote:
    It's hard not to notice that this is almost always done in ways that play to male characters' reputations and shove aside female characters. It's not as if the hookup was used to tell a story about Moondragon, but rather to exclude her from a story. Similarly, we've gotten loads of scenes about superheroines talking about Tony Stark and Matt Murdock, which is great way to turn a conversation between a bunch of female characters into a conversation about how studly a male character is.


Excellent point about the double standard in the nature of those situations.




    Quote:
    Really, it's almost always the opposite of good characterization to suddenly bring in an old hookup as a plot device. When She-Hulk slept with the Juggernaut, as "funny" as a lot of fans found that -- me included, for a while -- in retrospect most of its effect is that it makes Shulkie look like she's not even vaguely serious about her legal career what with "sleeping with a client" being a disbarment offense and all, which in turn kind of diminishes one of the character's more distinctive elements. (Compare Matt Murdock, whose ethical problems around his legal work is never used as a punchline but rather as a source of intense drama.)


I *hated* the Juggernaut/She-Hulk thing immediately.



    Quote:
    The previous nadir was the retroactive reveal of the Sentry-Rogue relationship, which was creepy given that the writer apparently didn't realize a) that the Sentry had been established as in a committed relationship for pretty much all of his history by Bendis and b) that Rogue was extremely inexperienced with intimacy at all because of her powers and had huge hangups that a retconned sexual relationship sort of stomps all over to no good effect.


Plus, what on earth was even the point of that one? He was already dead when that came to light. And we'd already had Crystal retconned in as someone he'd been involved with.




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    It's unfortunate that Bendis, one of the few writers who's made this work well, was involved in the clumsy Moondragon thing here (and the rape-y Scarlet Witch amnesia thing that Heinberg had to retcon later on.,..actually, what is it with Bendis making most of Hawkeye's plots about who he's sleeping with?). The whole thing works better if you read it as Hakweye making a creepy joke to get back at a character he never much liked rather than as a reference to an actual thing that happened.


Good idea.

You know, when there was a chance to actually use a "real" Hawkeye past romantic entanglement in a story, as Clint faced Moonstone when she was with the Dark Avengers, their history hardly came into play. (Dark Reign: The List - Avengers followed by New Avengers Annual #3) There was tons of wasted story potential there.

Hawkeye used to be sort of a hard-luck guy when it came to women. I don't know why anybody thought he would be a better character as Ho-keye. How many have there been? Echo. The Wasp. Moondragon. All hookups without any substance. I'm not sure what the circumstances were between Clint and Spider-Woman. Maybe somebody can chime in on whether or not that was handled better.

One thing that is frustrating for me as a longtime Hawkeye fan is that while he's been portrayed as a ladies man in recent years, he hasn't been involved with any of the women I would have liked to have seen him with. She-Hulk mainly.

And even more annoying is that a well-written Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye relationship, given their history, could have been something substantial. Instead, we got an issue most of us found offensive that pretty much eliminates the possibility of there ever being a real Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye storyline. Even with the retcon, Hawkeye isn't in the clear.


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Michael





    Quote:
    You know, it's kind of irritating that the "we hooked up" retcon has become a default move to instantly create character connections without having to do something radical like actually show them interacting with each other; and in the case of Moondragon, it doesn't even make sense. Her shtick in the Avengers was that she imagines she's a god who has little in common with anyone short of other gods. Hawkeye's pretty much the last person she'd sleep with.


It also doesn't work because it's hard to imagine a time period when this would make sense from Hawkeye's perspective. Clint first met her briefly during the 140s of Avengers, next encountered her during the Korvac Saga when she pissed him off by tampering with Pietro's mind, next encountered her when she mind controlled his friends into battling each other, then Moondragon raped Thor and Clint married Bobbi.


    Quote:
    Really, it's almost always the opposite of good characterization to suddenly bring in an old hookup as a plot device. When She-Hulk slept with the Juggernaut, as "funny" as a lot of fans found that -- me included, for a while -- in retrospect most of its effect is that it makes Shulkie look like she's not even vaguely serious about her legal career what with "sleeping with a client" being a disbarment offense and all, which in turn kind of diminishes one of the character's more distinctive elements. (Compare Matt Murdock, whose ethical problems around his legal work is never used as a punchline but rather as a source of intense drama.)


It was also the beginning of the portrayal of Jen as a "slut". Previously she'd had a single one-night stand with Starfox after an extremely stressful mission. Before long, she was so irresponsible she got kicked out of the mansion.

    Quote:
    The previous nadir was the retroactive reveal of the Sentry-Rogue relationship, which was creepy given that the writer apparently didn't realize a) that the Sentry had been established as in a committed relationship for pretty much all of his history by Bendis and b) that Rogue was extremely inexperienced with intimacy at all because of her powers and had huge hangups that a retconned sexual relationship sort of stomps all over to no good effect.


Not to mention that Rogue was written as not old enough to vote until about the Mutant Massacre.

Michael




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Poor Pietro, indeed.

He was the HERO of House of M. Everyone running around saying, "Kill Wanda." Bah! Were she my sister, I'd have done far, far worse.

The Inhumans deserved everything they got in the "Son of M" minis.

His other betrayals really were never all that big, imo. They were more personal, thus really didn't affect the group. The worst is really Luna. That was horrible, but doesn't really affect the Avengers.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,103




    Quote:
    And even more annoying is that a well-written Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye relationship, given their history, could have been something substantial. Instead, we got an issue most of us found offensive that pretty much eliminates the possibility of there ever being a real Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye storyline. Even with the retcon, Hawkeye isn't in the clear.


I agree. The retcon was that Hawkeye believed it was Wanda when in fact it was a Doombot. That still means Hawkeye intentionally tried to bed a dear old friend who seemed in the midst of a complete mental breakdown and didn't even remember who she was. Maybe he thought she wouldn't even remember. This is evil at its core.

I've heard the counter-argument that Clint was suffering from PTSD from his death/resurrection at Wanda's hand, that Wanda seduced him, and that Hawkeye was actually the victim. I ain't buying it. ESPECIALLY since we now know that magic wasn't at play during their encounter, since the Wanda-bot wouldn't have had those powers. And I definitely can't see Doom using his magic to make Clint get intimate with one of his robots, for heavens sake.

Back when Hawkeye led the WACKOs, he was my second-favorite character (after Spidey). Now I can't even look at him. The damage Bendis did to these characters just goes on and on.




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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AssemblyRequired





    Quote:


      Quote:
      And even more annoying is that a well-written Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye relationship, given their history, could have been something substantial. Instead, we got an issue most of us found offensive that pretty much eliminates the possibility of there ever being a real Scarlet Witch/Hawkeye storyline. Even with the retcon, Hawkeye isn't in the clear.



    Quote:
    I agree. The retcon was that Hawkeye believed it was Wanda when in fact it was a Doombot. That still means Hawkeye intentionally tried to bed a dear old friend who seemed in the midst of a complete mental breakdown and didn't even remember who she was. Maybe he thought she wouldn't even remember. This is evil at its core.



    Quote:
    I've heard the counter-argument that Clint was suffering from PTSD from his death/resurrection at Wanda's hand, that Wanda seduced him, and that Hawkeye was actually the victim. I ain't buying it. ESPECIALLY since we now know that magic wasn't at play during their encounter, since the Wanda-bot wouldn't have had those powers. And I definitely can't see Doom using his magic to make Clint get intimate with one of his robots, for heavens sake.



I have thought of that too. The retcon actually takes away any excuse we could have made for Clint about being under magical influence.

As originally written, New Avengers 26 is loaded with questions that never got answered. Wanda claimed that her aunt Agatha (who was supposed to be dead) was sleeping in the other room. And then Clint tries to open a door, but then freezes, as if some force is keeping him from doing so.

But then Bendis never mentioned any of it again as far as I know. What was supposed to be going on there? And with the retcon, what are we supposed to think was behind the door? And then why wouldn't Hawkeye tell the other Avengers that he'd found Wanda?

The retcon needs a further retcon. I don't even care WHAT. But Hawkeye needs this off his official history somehow. The Austen-written tryst with the Wasp was bad too, with everyone involved acting out of character and illogically. So somebody should wipe both incidents away at the same time.




    Quote:
    Back when Hawkeye led the WACKOs, he was my second-favorite character (after Spidey). Now I can't even look at him. The damage Bendis did to these characters just goes on and on.


That issue was the last one where Marvel got any of my money for an issue written by Bendis.

Hawkeye used to be my favorite Marvel character. And the Scarlet Witch was my favorite female Avenger. I got my start as an Avengers fan as a kid with those old cartoons of Cap's Kooky Quartet.


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jcampie




That ridiculous West Coast Avengers story where he's literally selling out his beloved sister to the commies for medical experimentation was thankfully later explained in an X-Factor Annual as Pietro being under the mental control of Maximus. Comic book writers have had a tendency to be nothing short of embarrassing when it comes to addressing heroes genuinely afflicted with mental illness. They invariably turn them into murderous raving lunatics with their close friends, relatives and colleagues calling them names and trying to take them out rather than get them the medical and psychiatric help they need. Everybody inevitably comes out looking bad.


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