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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



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    I think the most logical explanation that can explain Thanos having the Deviant syndrome is Sui San must be descended from some strain of Deviant.

    Which means someone in Uranos's group was descended from Deviants. My totally unsupportable guess is that Sui San is the daughter of Uranos and his follower Shastra and Shastra was a Skrull infiltrator. Granted that means Mentor slept with his cousin but like you say he was originally presented as a titan and the titans of myth were way more incesty and took their siblings as spouses.


Well, Earth/Universe/Paradise X claims that Sui-San was a Skrull, which is why Thanos has both mutant and Deviant-like qualities and why he has that furrowed chin. If we figure this Kazantra was Eros's mother, so he and Thanos are only half-brothers, that might explain it, too.

It might also help us understand how Sui0San went from orange-skinned in flashbacks to white Caucasian in the recent Thanos Rising mini. (Which itself has reopened the door to Nebula being Thanos's granddaughter, since now Thanos had kids all over the place and didn't always get around to killing them right away.)


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    Another thing is I get Starlin was trying to say the Titans were the Titans of Greek Myth...but clearly the ones we've seen don't match any known titans except Kronos. Uranos in Greek mythology wasn't a Titan....he slept with his mother Gaea and was their progenitor but he wasn't an actual Titan.


This is true, which is why the Eternals retcon has stuck and ended up pretty much working. We also know that the Titans can create beings with their life-baths, and more recently we've seen that Earth Eternals -- outside special circumstances -- are resurrected by Celestial machinery when necessary. This raises the question of why anyone Thanos killed on Titan stayed dead, instead of being life-bath cloned or recreated back on earth…for that matter, how come the Celestial tech let any of the Eternals leave? Though if Sui-San or her mother were Deviants, that might explain why in their cases. (The Gaiman Eternals series doesn't square with some other stuff we've seen, in other words.)


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    Eros wasn't a titan he was the son of Aphrodite (so he was like a great-grandchild of the titans). Thanatos was a son of primordial darkness deities Nyx and Erebus. I have no clue who Mentor is supposed to represent in the analogy.


Mentor is a human character from the Odyssey; Athena poises as Mentor to give info to Odysseus's son Telemachus. (Let's hope no one decides that A'Lars is actually just Thena commuting between worlds in disguise or something!)


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    There are a lot of threads to that tapestry:

    1. Earth's humans/Eternals/Deviants. The paradigm goes that the Celestials gave humans the potential for mutancy, gave the eternals stable forms and the Deviants are supposed to mutate wildly from offspring to offspring.


And unlike every other world, all three races (plus mutants as a human offshoot) stayed around on Earth, which apparently has something to do with why the Celestials keep returning. Since Jonathan Hickman's SHIELD has brought the "defenders of a Celestial egg" theory into 616 continuity, though, their work on various alien worlds makes much less sense. For that matter, I don't recall quite what role the Deviants played in that theory, either.


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    2. The Skrull Deviants, the normals and their Eternals as well as the Deviant offshot the Dire Wraiths, and the fact that the Skrull Deviants are still able to have mutants which should be a trait of the slaughtered Normals. (Not so much implying the Normals aside from Prime Skrull survived but rather their descendents have intermingled with Skrull Deviants)


Dire Wraiths are different due to messing with dark magicks, though, right?

And as we discussed in another old thread, one of the Skrull "normals" we've seen -- Prime Skrull -- actually seems to have Eternal-like atomic restructuring powers, unlike Kly'bn (before his godhood) and "throwback" Talos the Untamed. Maybe he has the SAkrull equivalent of the x-gene?

Srkull Deviants also seem unlike Earth Deviants; rather than having wildly different forms with each generation, they just don't have a fixed form for any individual. But compared ot Earth Deviants, they're much more stable as a phenotype


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    3. The Kree normals both the original blue and the pink Kree that come from a result of them breeding with other races, the kree Eternals, the lack of known Kree Deviants and the Cotati who also evolved on Hala but presumably evolved independent of Celestial interference.


Since there's at least one surviving Kree Eternal, Ultimus, there must have been Kree Deviants, surely. The Kree started out as a bunch of barbarian tribes with little beyond spears and fire, so it's not clear when, where, or how their Eternals were wiped out.

Or their Deviants, for that matter; at least on Earth, Deviants and Eternals both ended up with more advanced tech thanks to studying the Celestials' leftovers; this doesn't seem to have happened on other worlds.

Additionally, no other world seems to have a counterpart to Apocalypse, a mutant whome the Celestials seem to have deliberately altered in order to do soemthign with regard to their ongoing experiments. While En Sabah Nur was active on a Skrull world for a while, he seems to have no real counterpart. Though if you're looking for an immortal megamind that wants its race to keep evolving, you do have the Supreme Intelligence. Troiuble is, that's officially the result of the Kree using tech to crudely imitate an Eternal Uni-Mind, isn't it?


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    4. The Titan Eternals and the Uranian Eternals and their connection to the Kree and the Kree's creation of the Inhumans from Arlok's corpse...one confusing issue about the Uranian Eternals...Uranos didn't found the Uranian Eternals. He founded the ORIGINAL settlement of Eternals on Titan that was later wiped out in a civil war. Mentor just repopulated Titan with Sui San. Astron founded the Uranian Eternals after Uranos left him and three other followers on Uranus. And honestly I was never quite clear where the protected domes came from on Titan and Uranus and whether that was created by the Kree, the true Uranian aliens or another party.


Agent sof Atlas also claims that the Uranian colony was a penal colony, not just a place the losers of a civil war went a la the Trojans in the Aeneid. But that begs the question of who could have picked it as a penal colony and how they were kept from just leaving for Earth again. There's some reference to the idea that the alien Uranians were the wardens, since their rule is that you can't ever leave the planet one you've bonded with them.

We also don't know whether the Uranian colony died because Deathurge convinced them all to kill themselves and then ruptured the dome, apparently on behalf of its master Oblivion…or just for giggles…or if it died because of "radiation from its core" per Agents of Atlas (which was implicitly perhaps the native Uranians killing them because of the Uranians' plans to return to Earth again).


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    5. The Earth Eternals and their similarities to the Greek Gods. I believe when the Eternals were reintroduced in Thor after the original Kirby series the Asgardians and the Olympians had never heard of the Eternals and were legitimately shocked to learn of their existence.


That storyline reveals that the Olympian Eternals had made a pact with the Greek gods and were taking their names to seal the deal. Since there wouldn'ty be enough godly names, that might explain why some of them ended up named for Titans and even non-gods like Mentor. "Eh, it's close enough to Olympian."


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    6. Are the Cotati connected to the H'ylthri? (simple answer...all signs point to no)


No reasont hey wuld be, but the similarities are uncanny. Given that Kun-Lun is on the same continet the Priests of Pasma settled, and that it was suggested in Avengers v.1 #133-5 that Earth martial arts may be descended from the Kree pacifists' techniques, there's room to suggest the H'ylrthi are some kind of transplanted or corrupted offshoots. But it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing to make all martial arts the result of ancient astronauts, like Earth people can't figure out how to punch each other more effectively all on their own.


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    7. The moon where the Skrulls created a blue area of oxygen, the Cotati created a park, and the Kree created a city which the Inhumans parked their own city right next to for a time in the modern age. I'm not sure if Uatu built his citadel there or if just lives in the Kree city that the Kree built in their contest with the Cotati to join the Skrulls trading consortium. I don't think the Cotati garden is still there but I think the Elder of the universe the Gardener resurrected plants on the moon when he had the time gem...I can't remember if Mantlo even knew about the Cotati park on the moon but it makes some sense Gardner would be able to resurrect plant life there.


According to Avengers v.1 #133, the Cotati garden wasn't on our moon, but rather on some other planetoid where the Cotati are dropped off before the Skrulls head to our moon. But later the Kree can somehow run over and destroy it without ships…I have no idea whether Engelhart was keeping track of his own script there, so let's assume it's all the same Earth-moon. Unless maybe the Cotati were left on Titan…..?

It's worth remembering that the Skrulls weren't originally a bunch of war-loving punks; it was the barbarian Kree who killed their emperor and stole their tech, forcing them into a long-lasting war that sort of ruined both societies.

Also, the Skrulls setting up the natives of Hala to compete is itself a bit like what the Celestials do, so maybe its typically Skrullian imitative behavior?




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



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      3. The Kree normals both the original blue and the pink Kree that come from a result of them breeding with other races, the kree Eternals, the lack of known Kree Deviants and the Cotati who also evolved on Hala but presumably evolved independent of Celestial interference.

    Since there's at least one surviving Kree Eternal, Ultimus, there must have been Kree Deviants, surely. The Kree started out as a bunch of barbarian tribes with little beyond spears and fire, so it's not clear when, where, or how their Eternals were wiped out.

    Or their Deviants, for that matter; at least on Earth, Deviants and Eternals both ended up with more advanced tech thanks to studying the Celestials' leftovers; this doesn't seem to have happened on other worlds.

And how, if at all, do the Cotati fit in with the Kree Celestial monkeying? Are they another product of Celestial interference? Responsible for the wiping out of Kree Eternals/Deviants?




City of Heroes is BACK!
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 27.0 on Windows 8
Reverend Meteor





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      Quote:
      I think the most logical explanation that can explain Thanos having the Deviant syndrome is Sui San must be descended from some strain of Deviant.



      Quote:
      Which means someone in Uranos's group was descended from Deviants. My totally unsupportable guess is that Sui San is the daughter of Uranos and his follower Shastra and Shastra was a Skrull infiltrator. Granted that means Mentor slept with his cousin but like you say he was originally presented as a titan and the titans of myth were way more incesty and took their siblings as spouses.



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    Well, Earth/Universe/Paradise X claims that Sui-San was a Skrull, which is why Thanos has both mutant and Deviant-like qualities and why he has that furrowed chin. If we figure this Kazantra was Eros's mother, so he and Thanos are only half-brothers, that might explain it, too.



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    It might also help us understand how Sui0San went from orange-skinned in flashbacks to white Caucasian in the recent Thanos Rising mini. (Which itself has reopened the door to Nebula being Thanos's granddaughter, since now Thanos had kids all over the place and didn't always get around to killing them right away.)



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      Another thing is I get Starlin was trying to say the Titans were the Titans of Greek Myth...but clearly the ones we've seen don't match any known titans except Kronos. Uranos in Greek mythology wasn't a Titan....he slept with his mother Gaea and was their progenitor but he wasn't an actual Titan.



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    This is true, which is why the Eternals retcon has stuck and ended up pretty much working. We also know that the Titans can create beings with their life-baths, and more recently we've seen that Earth Eternals -- outside special circumstances -- are resurrected by Celestial machinery when necessary. This raises the question of why anyone Thanos killed on Titan stayed dead, instead of being life-bath cloned or recreated back on earth…for that matter, how come the Celestial tech let any of the Eternals leave? Though if Sui-San or her mother were Deviants, that might explain why in their cases. (The Gaiman Eternals series doesn't square with some other stuff we've seen, in other words.)



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      Eros wasn't a titan he was the son of Aphrodite (so he was like a great-grandchild of the titans). Thanatos was a son of primordial darkness deities Nyx and Erebus. I have no clue who Mentor is supposed to represent in the analogy.



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    Mentor is a human character from the Odyssey; Athena poises as Mentor to give info to Odysseus's son Telemachus. (Let's hope no one decides that A'Lars is actually just Thena commuting between worlds in disguise or something!)



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      There are a lot of threads to that tapestry:



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      1. Earth's humans/Eternals/Deviants. The paradigm goes that the Celestials gave humans the potential for mutancy, gave the eternals stable forms and the Deviants are supposed to mutate wildly from offspring to offspring.



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    And unlike every other world, all three races (plus mutants as a human offshoot) stayed around on Earth, which apparently has something to do with why the Celestials keep returning. Since Jonathan Hickman's SHIELD has brought the "defenders of a Celestial egg" theory into 616 continuity, though, their work on various alien worlds makes much less sense. For that matter, I don't recall quite what role the Deviants played in that theory, either.


So is the Celestial Egg related to the Dark Celestial?


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      2. The Skrull Deviants, the normals and their Eternals as well as the Deviant offshot the Dire Wraiths, and the fact that the Skrull Deviants are still able to have mutants which should be a trait of the slaughtered Normals. (Not so much implying the Normals aside from Prime Skrull survived but rather their descendents have intermingled with Skrull Deviants)



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    Dire Wraiths are different due to messing with dark magicks, though, right?


It's never been made clear as far as I know whether the Skrulls who used dark magic evolved into Dire Wraiths or if another species had for want of a better term had an evolutionary bifurcation and split into two distinct species different from the first over time. I've always assumed the latter but the first is the more likely answer I imagine. I've always assumed the Deviants who existed on Skrullos before their forms stabilized were the progenitors of both the Skrulls and the Wraiths but I have nothing to support this.





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    And as we discussed in another old thread, one of the Skrull "normals" we've seen -- Prime Skrull -- actually seems to have Eternal-like atomic restructuring powers, unlike Kly'bn (before his godhood) and "throwback" Talos the Untamed. Maybe he has the SAkrull equivalent of the x-gene?


Yes I don't remember if Blackwulf stated Prime Skrull was a mutant of the humanoid branch of his species but I've always assumed that's what he had to be. The one real example we have of a normal Skrull is in fact not normal but is a mutant.



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    Srkull Deviants also seem unlike Earth Deviants; rather than having wildly different forms with each generation, they just don't have a fixed form for any individual. But compared ot Earth Deviants, they're much more stable as a phenotype


Eventually the Skrulls genetic form stabilized to where they had a normal form and then could shapeshift to another form. To me the Skrulls and the Wraiths were descended from Deviants with unstable forms much like the ones on earth.


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      3. The Kree normals both the original blue and the pink Kree that come from a result of them breeding with other races, the kree Eternals, the lack of known Kree Deviants and the Cotati who also evolved on Hala but presumably evolved independent of Celestial interference.



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    Since there's at least one surviving Kree Eternal, Ultimus, there must have been Kree Deviants, surely. The Kree started out as a bunch of barbarian tribes with little beyond spears and fire, so it's not clear when, where, or how their Eternals were wiped out.


I've always kind of assumed that the last Kree Deviants are probably owned by either the Stranger or the Collector.


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    Or their Deviants, for that matter; at least on Earth, Deviants and Eternals both ended up with more advanced tech thanks to studying the Celestials' leftovers; this doesn't seem to have happened on other worlds.



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    Additionally, no other world seems to have a counterpart to Apocalypse, a mutant whome the Celestials seem to have deliberately altered in order to do soemthign with regard to their ongoing experiments. While En Sabah Nur was active on a Skrull world for a while, he seems to have no real counterpart. Though if you're looking for an immortal megamind that wants its race to keep evolving, you do have the Supreme Intelligence. Troiuble is, that's officially the result of the Kree using tech to crudely imitate an Eternal Uni-Mind, isn't it?


Did the Celestials intentionally transform En Sabah Nur? I thought he was changed merely because he went into their ship. I would assume if anyone else did that and survived the experience they would be transformed.



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      4. The Titan Eternals and the Uranian Eternals and their connection to the Kree and the Kree's creation of the Inhumans from Arlok's corpse...one confusing issue about the Uranian Eternals...Uranos didn't found the Uranian Eternals. He founded the ORIGINAL settlement of Eternals on Titan that was later wiped out in a civil war. Mentor just repopulated Titan with Sui San. Astron founded the Uranian Eternals after Uranos left him and three other followers on Uranus. And honestly I was never quite clear where the protected domes came from on Titan and Uranus and whether that was created by the Kree, the true Uranian aliens or another party.



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    Agent sof Atlas also claims that the Uranian colony was a penal colony, not just a place the losers of a civil war went a la the Trojans in the Aeneid. But that begs the question of who could have picked it as a penal colony and how they were kept from just leaving for Earth again. There's some reference to the idea that the alien Uranians were the wardens, since their rule is that you can't ever leave the planet one you've bonded with them.


The mention of it being a penal colony explicitly contradicts the story of it's founding in the old What If story. Granted it does go to explaining who created the domes which the original story did not.


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    We also don't know whether the Uranian colony died because Deathurge convinced them all to kill themselves and then ruptured the dome, apparently on behalf of its master Oblivion…or just for giggles…or if it died because of "radiation from its core" per Agents of Atlas (which was implicitly perhaps the native Uranians killing them because of the Uranians' plans to return to Earth again).


I'm assuming if the Urianians were the jailers of Astron's people then the Uranians had to be in league with either Chronos, Uranos, Zuras or Mentor. If Astron's people were deemed criminals then the Urianians were jailing them to appease one of those factions.


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      5. The Earth Eternals and their similarities to the Greek Gods. I believe when the Eternals were reintroduced in Thor after the original Kirby series the Asgardians and the Olympians had never heard of the Eternals and were legitimately shocked to learn of their existence.



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    That storyline reveals that the Olympian Eternals had made a pact with the Greek gods and were taking their names to seal the deal. Since there wouldn'ty be enough godly names, that might explain why some of them ended up named for Titans and even non-gods like Mentor. "Eh, it's close enough to Olympian."



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      6. Are the Cotati connected to the H'ylthri? (simple answer...all signs point to no)



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    No reasont hey wuld be, but the similarities are uncanny. Given that Kun-Lun is on the same continet the Priests of Pasma settled, and that it was suggested in Avengers v.1 #133-5 that Earth martial arts may be descended from the Kree pacifists' techniques, there's room to suggest the H'ylrthi are some kind of transplanted or corrupted offshoots. But it wouldn't necessarily be a good thing to make all martial arts the result of ancient astronauts, like Earth people can't figure out how to punch each other more effectively all on their own.


Oh I forgot about the martial arts being taught by the priest thing. Good point.


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      7. The moon where the Skrulls created a blue area of oxygen, the Cotati created a park, and the Kree created a city which the Inhumans parked their own city right next to for a time in the modern age. I'm not sure if Uatu built his citadel there or if just lives in the Kree city that the Kree built in their contest with the Cotati to join the Skrulls trading consortium. I don't think the Cotati garden is still there but I think the Elder of the universe the Gardener resurrected plants on the moon when he had the time gem...I can't remember if Mantlo even knew about the Cotati park on the moon but it makes some sense Gardner would be able to resurrect plant life there.



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    According to Avengers v.1 #133, the Cotati garden wasn't on our moon, but rather on some other planetoid where the Cotati are dropped off before the Skrulls head to our moon. But later the Kree can somehow run over and destroy it without ships…I have no idea whether Engelhart was keeping track of his own script there, so let's assume it's all the same Earth-moon. Unless maybe the Cotati were left on Titan…..?


I recently read the Celestial Madonna TPB and was confused on this point for the same reasons.

Thematically I like it better if both groups were on the moon because it feeds into the Gardener recreating a garden there.


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    It's worth remembering that the Skrulls weren't originally a bunch of war-loving punks; it was the barbarian Kree who killed their emperor and stole their tech, forcing them into a long-lasting war that sort of ruined both societies.


Yet this would presumably be well after the point they slaughtered the Skrull Eternals and Normals. And after their original conflicts with their cousins the Dire Wraiths.

The Skrulls didn't start out as pacifists. They were war like then they were pacifists then they were war like again. I imagine the Kree attacking the pacifist Skrulls resulted in all the previous ultra-conservative war mongering Skrulls to be taken seriously again and gave them the excuse to seize power.


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    Also, the Skrulls setting up the natives of Hala to compete is itself a bit like what the Celestials do, so maybe its typically Skrullian imitative behavior?




Posted with Mozilla Firefox 27.0 on Windows XP
Century: Your Alien Hero




I'm generally content to just sit back, read, and think "stuff like this is why I love this place", but here's something I do know:

> > Additionally, no other world seems to have a counterpart to Apocalypse, a mutant whome the Celestials seem to have deliberately altered in order to do soemthign with regard to their ongoing experiments. While En Sabah Nur was active on a Skrull world for a while, he seems to have no real counterpart. Though if you're looking for an immortal megamind that wants its race to keep evolving, you do have the Supreme Intelligence. Troiuble is, that's officially the result of the Kree using tech to crudely imitate an Eternal Uni-Mind, isn't it?

> Did the Celestials intentionally transform En Sabah Nur? I thought he was changed merely because he went into their ship. I would assume if anyone else did that and survived the experience they would be transformed.

It's not entirely clear how much he was "transformed" by the Celestial Ship, since he already had pretty much all of his known power-set before he went in there, but the very fact that the Celestials allowed him to keep their ship for thousands of years spoke to them having some plan and purpose for him, whether he was aware of it or not. Eventually, in his last appearance (so far, anyway), he was rescued from certain-death by the Celestials, with on-panel confirmation that they allowed him the use of their technology, and now the time had come for him to serve them directly.

More recently, the murder of the boy-Apocalypse (presumably a clone of the original, although I don't think it's ever been clarified how/what/why he was) triggered the transformation of Archangel into a 'new Apocalypse', with Dark Beast explaining to us all that Apocalypse serves an important purpose, and by killing him (or a boy-clone of, or whatever), the X-Force had screwed everything up in a big way.


Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





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        3. The Kree normals both the original blue and the pink Kree that come from a result of them breeding with other races, the kree Eternals, the lack of known Kree Deviants and the Cotati who also evolved on Hala but presumably evolved independent of Celestial interference.

      Since there's at least one surviving Kree Eternal, Ultimus, there must have been Kree Deviants, surely. The Kree started out as a bunch of barbarian tribes with little beyond spears and fire, so it's not clear when, where, or how their Eternals were wiped out.



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      Or their Deviants, for that matter; at least on Earth, Deviants and Eternals both ended up with more advanced tech thanks to studying the Celestials' leftovers; this doesn't seem to have happened on other worlds.

    And how, if at all, do the Cotati fit in with the Kree Celestial monkeying? Are they another product of Celestial interference? Responsible for the wiping out of Kree Eternals/Deviants?


Presumably the Kree are responsible for killing the Eternals and Deviants. I tend to think the Cotati being peaceful plants might indicate they evolved without the influence of the Celestials or were a failed experiment that was for whatever reason not exterminated. Mankind's propensity towards war goes hand in hand with most of our advancements. Peace doesn't breed innovation like war does. I assume the Celestials are looking for races to evolve via conflict and the Cotati are too at peace with themselves to expand their horizons IMO.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 27.0 on Windows 8
Don Campbell





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      And as we discussed in another old thread, one of the Skrull "normals" we've seen -- Prime Skrull -- actually seems to have Eternal-like atomic restructuring powers, unlike Kly'bn (before his godhood) and "throwback" Talos the Untamed. Maybe he has the SAkrull equivalent of the x-gene?



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    Yes I don't remember if Blackwulf stated Prime Skrull was a mutant of the humanoid branch of his species but I've always assumed that's what he had to be. The one real example we have of a normal Skrull is in fact not normal but is a mutant.

Actually, Prime Skrull was NOT a mutant member of the Skrullian Normals. The Blackwulf series explicitly showed that he only gained his atomic-restructuring powers after being injected with the "evolution formula" which the US Air Force had created by draining adrenaline from a captured shape-shifting "unstable" Skrull and then purifying it with adrenaline from the stable Skrull. Both the Prime Skrull and Scorch got their new powers by being injected with that formula.


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      Srkull Deviants also seem unlike Earth Deviants; rather than having wildly different forms with each generation, they just don't have a fixed form for any individual. But compared ot Earth Deviants, they're much more stable as a phenotype



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    Eventually the Skrulls genetic form stabilized to where they had a normal form and then could shapeshift to another form. To me the Skrulls and the Wraiths were descended from Deviants with unstable forms much like the ones on earth.

I totally agree with this idea. Unfortunately, nobody has written a story supporting it yet.


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    The mention of it being a penal colony explicitly contradicts the story of it's founding in the old What If story. Granted it does go to explaining who created the domes which the original story did not.

The dome on Uranus was originally created by the Kree to house the weapons depot that they placed on the planet. After the Kree had come to inspect the damaged dome and then left in pursuit of Uranos and his ship, Astron and his followers returned and repaired the dome so that they could build their colony within it. As for the native Uranians being the wardens of the exiled Eternals, I think that was more a product of the Uranian mind-set: The Eternals had been exiled therefore they were criminals who had to stay exiled. When the Eternals tried to circumvent the restrictions imposed upon them by the Uranians' viewpoint (by having someone from Earth invite them to return), the Uranians regarded them as having violated the terms by which they were allowed to live on Uranus and summarily executed them.


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    I'm assuming if the Urianians were the jailers of Astron's people then the Uranians had to be in league with either Chronos, Uranos, Zuras or Mentor. If Astron's people were deemed criminals then the Urianians were jailing them to appease one of those factions.

I don't believe that it was ever stated that anyone besides the Uranians had appointed them to be the jailers of the Eternals. As I recall, the idea was that the Uranians discovered that the Eternals had been exiled by their kinsmen from Earth and decided, on their own, to treat them like criminals by allowing them to live if and only if they stayed exiled. Once their plan to escape was made evident, the Uranians took it upon themselves to execute the Eternals.


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      7. The moon where the Skrulls created a blue area of oxygen, the Cotati created a park, and the Kree created a city which the Inhumans parked their own city right next to for a time in the modern age. I'm not sure if Uatu built his citadel there or if just lives in the Kree city that the Kree built in their contest with the Cotati to join the Skrulls trading consortium. I don't think the Cotati garden is still there but I think the Elder of the universe the Gardener resurrected plants on the moon when he had the time gem...I can't remember if Mantlo even knew about the Cotati park on the moon but it makes some sense Gardner would be able to resurrect plant life there.


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      According to Avengers v.1 #133, the Cotati garden wasn't on our moon, but rather on some other planetoid where the Cotati are dropped off before the Skrulls head to our moon. But later the Kree can somehow run over and destroy it without ships…I have no idea whether Engelhart was keeping track of his own script there, so let's assume it's all the same Earth-moon. Unless maybe the Cotati were left on Titan…..?


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    I recently read the Celestial Madonna TPB and was confused on this point for the same reasons.


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    Thematically I like it better if both groups were on the moon because it feeds into the Gardener recreating a garden there.


The idea that the Skrulls took both the Kree and the Cotati to Earth's Moon seems to have originated with the EARTH X miniseries and spread to various wikis. In the original Avengers story, each group was taken to their own moon and left there for one year. At the end of that period, the Skrulls came to each of the moons to inspect what both groups had accomplished. The Skrulls who came to Earth's Moon were very impressed by the Blue City that the Kree had built, so much so that all during the voyage home Morag and the other Kree were eagerly anticipating their bright future within the Skrull Empire. It was only once they had arrived back on Hala that they learned that the other Skrulls, the ones who had inspected the Cotati garden on the other moon, had been more impressed by it. Accordingly, Morag gathered his warriors and during the night they wiped out all the Cotati on HALA, then killed the Skrull delegation when they protested and seized the Skrull starship.

Exactly what happened to the Cotati garden on that other moon was not revealed by Engelhart. Presumably the Cotati who had nurtured it had been returned to Hala, just like the Kree contestants had been, but that was never explicitly established. Considering how traumatic the Cotati had found star travel, perhaps they had asked the Skrulls to leave them on that moon instead of returning them to Hala?


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The Black Guardian

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    Quote:

      Quote:
      Thematically I like it better if both groups were on the moon because it feeds into the Gardener recreating a garden there.

    The idea that the Skrulls took both the Kree and the Cotati to Earth's Moon seems to have originated with the EARTH X miniseries and spread to various wikis. In the original Avengers story, each group was taken to their own moon and left there for one year.

Yes and no. The Skrulls specifically chose Earth's Moon for the Kree (it says this explicitly). But the Cotati had another moon ("each race to a different uninhabited planetoid") in an undisclosed location was not their own moon. It was not their own moon.

But correct, the Cotati were never on Earth's Moon. I think I would rather assume that either the Skrulls "terra"-forming and/or the Kree's cultivation resulted in something for the Gardener to grow on the Moon.




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Don Campbell





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      Quote:
      The idea that the Skrulls took both the Kree and the Cotati to Earth's Moon seems to have originated with the EARTH X miniseries and spread to various wikis. In the original Avengers story, each group was taken to their own moon and left there for one year.

    Yes and no. The Skrulls specifically chose Earth's Moon for the Kree (it says this explicitly). But the Cotati had another moon ("each race to a different uninhabited planetoid") in an undisclosed location was not their own moon. It was not their own moon.



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    But correct, the Cotati were never on Earth's Moon. I think I would rather assume that either the Skrulls "terra"-forming and/or the Kree's cultivation resulted in something for the Gardener to grow on the Moon.


Just to be clear, I used the term "their own moon" to refer to BOTH of the uninhabited planetoids which the Skrulls had chosen for the two competing groups to use. Thus, Earth's Moon was "their own moon" for the Kree for the duration of the contest just as the other unnamed planetoid was "their own moon" for the Cotati for that time period.

When you think about it, the only moons that could truly be "theirs" would be those which orbited their homeworld, and now that I think about it I don't recall ever having read any mention of Hala having any such natural satellites.


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Reverend Meteor





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        Thematically I like it better if both groups were on the moon because it feeds into the Gardener recreating a garden there.

      The idea that the Skrulls took both the Kree and the Cotati to Earth's Moon seems to have originated with the EARTH X miniseries and spread to various wikis. In the original Avengers story, each group was taken to their own moon and left there for one year.

    Yes and no. The Skrulls specifically chose Earth's Moon for the Kree (it says this explicitly). But the Cotati had another moon ("each race to a different uninhabited planetoid") in an undisclosed location was not their own moon. It was not their own moon.



    Quote:
    But correct, the Cotati were never on Earth's Moon. I think I would rather assume that either the Skrulls "terra"-forming and/or the Kree's cultivation resulted in something for the Gardener to grow on the Moon.


If the Kree and the Cotati were on seperate moons then how did the Kree slaughter the Cotati BEFORE they killed the Skrulls and took their ship?

As I remember it the Skrulls were outraged by the Kree killing the Cotati and only when they rebuked the Kree did the Kree chose to slay the Skrulls and take their ship.


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Don Campbell





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      Quote:

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        The idea that the Skrulls took both the Kree and the Cotati to Earth's Moon seems to have originated with the EARTH X miniseries and spread to various wikis. In the original Avengers story, each group was taken to their own moon and left there for one year.

      Yes and no. The Skrulls specifically chose Earth's Moon for the Kree (it says this explicitly). But the Cotati had another moon ("each race to a different uninhabited planetoid") in an undisclosed location was not their own moon. It was not their own moon.
      But correct, the Cotati were never on Earth's Moon. I think I would rather assume that either the Skrulls "terra"-forming and/or the Kree's cultivation resulted in something for the Gardener to grow on the Moon.



    Quote:
    If the Kree and the Cotati were on seperate moons then how did the Kree slaughter the Cotati BEFORE they killed the Skrulls and took their ship?



    Quote:
    As I remember it the Skrulls were outraged by the Kree killing the Cotati and only when they rebuked the Kree did the Kree chose to slay the Skrulls and take their ship.


The story in Avengers #133 specifically shows the Skrulls transporting the Kree contestants back to their homeworld once their year-long contest was over. It was only after Morag was back on Hala that he learned of the possibility that the Skrulls might be about to judge in favor of the Cotati and so that night he led his warriors against the Cotati and slaughtered them while the Skrulls slept in their ship. The following morning he announced to the Skrulls that the Kree had settled the question of who would represent Hala by destroying their opposition. The Skrull emperor, Dorrek, was appalled and declared that Skrulls did not condone barbarism and that Hala would be shut forever from their circle of favored worlds. Morag had been expecting such a response because he then immediately ordered his followers to kill all the Skrulls, which they did.

In short, the Kree's genocide against the Cotati and their murder of the Skrulls and theft of their starship all took place on Hala, not on Earth's Moon.

There was never any mention of what happened to the moon which the Cotati had transformed into a garden. Presumably the Cotati who had been taken there had, like the Kree contestants, been returned to Hala so that they would be present when the Skrulls announced their decision, but that's never actually been stated in any story which I've read.


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Omar Karindu


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The Black Guardian

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