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Progressive Lantern




...allright, a few threads down, there's a thread in which Year One is being discussed, and a comparision with Long Halloween arised, some posters even mentioning that it was even better than Year One.
I've read Year One and enjoyed it a big deal, but I've never tried Long Halloween at all. All I know about it, it's that it was written by Jeph Loeb, a writer of whom I have only read some Superman/Batman issues, and was very disappointed by the extremely poor scripts. Because of that, I've never dared touch anything else written by Loeb.
So, my question is: is there any possibility at all, that someone who has found Loeb's Superman/Batman stories may ever enjoy The Long Halloween at all? I found his Superman/Batman stuff way too simplistic, two-dimensional and unimaginative.
Thanks in advance for your replies, and please, if there are any Jeph Loeb fans around here, don't feel offended by my comments. It's not my intention to offend.
Cheers.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
yelmurc99




the biggest difference between LONG HALLOWEEN and Loeb's Superman/Batman stuff (which i also dig) is MOOD. even though Loeb might have known what kind of story arcs he wanted to tell in S/B... LONG HALLOWEEN is a finite story. and that gives him a chance to set the tone and mood for every scene.

the other big difference is Mr. Tim Sale. when he and Jeph Loeb are together, it's pretty much nothing short of magic (see Daredevil: Yellow, Spider-Man: Blue, and Hulk: Grey).


> ...allright, a few threads down, there's a thread in which Year One is being discussed, and a comparision with Long Halloween arised, some posters even mentioning that it was even better than Year One.
> I've read Year One and enjoyed it a big deal, but I've never tried Long Halloween at all. All I know about it, it's that it was written by Jeph Loeb, a writer of whom I have only read some Superman/Batman issues, and was very disappointed by the extremely poor scripts. Because of that, I've never dared touch anything else written by Loeb.
> So, my question is: is there any possibility at all, that someone who has found Loeb's Superman/Batman stories may ever enjoy The Long Halloween at all? I found his Superman/Batman stuff way too simplistic, two-dimensional and unimaginative.
> Thanks in advance for your replies, and please, if there are any Jeph Loeb fans around here, don't feel offended by my comments. It's not my intention to offend.
> Cheers.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
> (by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


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Ryan




Opinions are always respected. I myself started finding Loebs work on Superman/Batman a little odd if not down right confusing. But I find it kind of hard to compare the Year One title and The Long Halloween at all. As far as I know; and if I'm wrong someone please correct me, The Long Halloween was kind of like a re-telling of Batman's first encounters with Harvey Dent/Two-Face. I'm not even sure that the story is actually credible to the Batman mythos. Year One is held as one of the most important storylines in Batman's history and I understand that many people will defend it if it ever falls under attack, but you may just be cheating yourself out of a damn fine Batman mystery tale by not reading Halloween. It is fast paced and leaves you guessing through the whole length of the tale.


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Ranger




Part of the big deal of "The Long Halloween" at the time was the mystery aspect -- people were putting lot of time and effort into figuring out Holiday's identity (for those who don't know, Holiday is a serial killer who strikes on every holiday, and no, I'm not telling who it is.)

And I agree, Loeb and Sale truly compliment each other as a team.


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RodimusPrime




Definately would recomend The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, as both are some of the most entertaining Batman stories ever told.


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Lorendiac




I've seen similar questions come up before; Batman fans who have heard something about "The Long Halloween" and want to know what to expect from it. And I've tried to answer those questions before! So I decided to run a few searches, find some of the answers I've used in the past, and recycle them for you! \:\)

(No explicit spoilers for the mysteries and surprises of "The Long Halloween" are present in these answers. Just some general observations and criticisms on my part.)

Here's something I said in late 2005:

***************
I remember when "The Long Halloween" started coming out as a 13-part miniseries in the 1990s. I bought something like the first 3 issues, I think, and then decided that while it was interesting, it was also moving pretty slowly, and I'd wait until there was a trade paperback collection and then read it all at once.

Years later, that's exactly what I did when I happened to notice the TPB collection at a local store.

It was very interesting while I was reading it. It has something of the tone and mood of one of the old mid-20th Century movies of the type they call "film noir."

It also probably helps a bit if you've already read Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" graphic novel, since some of the characters Miller invented for that are recycled by Loeb, but it's not indispensable to do it that way.

Loeb is a good writer in several ways - good dialogue, good tricks to build suspense, a mysterious killer in a trenchcoat and hat that shades his face, running around shooting people on holidays for some unknown reason.

On the downside, a) Batman didn't really show much detective ability in this case, and b) there was some really weird stuff at the end (DON'T peek ahead!) that made it hard to figure out just what had really been going on and why during that series of murders. As a story with building suspense, this was very good. As a "fair play" mystery, a whodunit where clues are provided and you are able to figure out how it all logically fits together and so forth, this was not very good. It all depends on what kind of experience you want.
***************



And here's something I said several months ago. Actually, in that thread we started talking about Jeph Loeb's 12-part "Hush" story arc for the Batman title, but my comments below also apply to his earlier work on "The Long Halloween." He has certain behavior patterns he sticks to, you see.

***************
I like Jeph Loeb's style when he's writing dialogue, and even when he's building suspense.

Where he usually falls apart (from my point of view) in doing a great big epic is in the area of Plot Development. The resolutions to problems sometimes seem too contrived; there can be loose ends nagging at me that he never bothered to tie up after he established them; he can have characters do things that make me scratch my head and mutter "Why would he do a thing like that at a time like this?", there can be too much apparent coincidence just magically making people come together at a certain place and time for no apparent reason . . . and I once wrote that as far as detective work is concerned, it often seems to me as if Loeb doesn't really believe Batman can detect his way out of a paper bag unless someone else takes him by the hand and shows him the way to go.
***************




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Matthew




I enjoyed the Long Halloween, but I hated Superman/Batman. LH is a good comic but it's not perfect. However, it is much better than Superman/Batman and for that matter Hush. I think Tim Sale's art managed to give it a certain mood that the other comics didn't have.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> I've seen similar questions come up before; Batman fans who have heard something about "The Long Halloween" and want to know what to expect from it. And I've tried to answer those questions before! So I decided to run a few searches, find some of the answers I've used in the past, and recycle them for you! \:\)


Good for me.



>
> (No explicit spoilers for the mysteries and surprises of "The Long Halloween" are present in these answers. Just some general observations and criticisms on my part.)


Check.



>
> Here's something I said in late 2005:
>
> ***************
> I remember when "The Long Halloween" started coming out as a 13-part miniseries in the 1990s. I bought something like the first 3 issues, I think, and then decided that while it was interesting, it was also moving pretty slowly, and I'd wait until there was a trade paperback collection and then read it all at once.
>
> Years later, that's exactly what I did when I happened to notice the TPB collection at a local store.
>
> It was very interesting while I was reading it. It has something of the tone and mood of one of the old mid-20th Century movies of the type they call "film noir."



I like those.



> It also probably helps a bit if you've already read Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" graphic novel, since some of the characters Miller invented for that are recycled by Loeb, but it's not indispensable to do it that way.


Fortunatly, I've done so.



> Loeb is a good writer in several ways - good dialogue, good tricks to build suspense, a mysterious killer in a trenchcoat and hat that shades his face, running around shooting people on holidays for some unknown reason.



Great for the set-up...



> On the downside, a) Batman didn't really show much detective ability in this case,


A shame. Personally, I feel that Batman should be portrayed first as a detective, second as a superhero. But that's a personal preffernce, I don't mean to invalidate all those stories in which they focus on him heroic aspect, either.



> and b) there was some really weird stuff at the end (DON'T peek ahead!) that made it hard to figure out just what had really been going on and why during that series of murders. As a story with building suspense, this was very good. As a "fair play" mystery, a whodunit where clues are provided and you are able to figure out how it all logically fits together and so forth, this was not very good.



It's the same problem I've had with Identity Crisis by Brad Meltzer, a 7-issue story that I was very excited about for the first five (5) issues, a little dubious about #6, and totally hated it at #7.
Meltzer succeded at setting up a great mystery, with many interesting subplots and new takes on villains and many other novelties, but failed miserably at the end of the story. The resolution of the main story point was totally unconvincing and forced.
Having said this, if The Long Halloween has the same problem that Identity Crisis had, then I won't be picking it up.
Anyway, thanks a lot for your insight, it's been very helpful and a pleasure to read, as always.



> It all depends on what kind of experience you want.
> ***************
>
>
>
> And here's something I said several months ago. Actually, in that thread we started talking about Jeph Loeb's 12-part "Hush" story arc for the Batman title, but my comments below also apply to his earlier work on "The Long Halloween." He has certain behavior patterns he sticks to, you see.
>
> ***************
> I like Jeph Loeb's style when he's writing dialogue, and even when he's building suspense.
>
> Where he usually falls apart (from my point of view) in doing a great big epic is in the area of Plot Development. The resolutions to problems sometimes seem too contrived; there can be loose ends nagging at me that he never bothered to tie up after he established them; he can have characters do things that make me scratch my head and mutter "Why would he do a thing like that at a time like this?", there can be too much apparent coincidence just magically making people come together at a certain place and time for no apparent reason . . . and I once wrote that as far as detective work is concerned, it often seems to me as if Loeb doesn't really believe Batman can detect his way out of a paper bag unless someone else takes him by the hand and shows him the way to go.
> ***************



Sounds a lot like Identity Crisis. A shame.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> the biggest difference between LONG HALLOWEEN and Loeb's Superman/Batman stuff (which i also dig) is MOOD.


I don't mind so much the mood, as long as the story is well-plotted, and the final resolution makes sense according to what was previously set up. I can enjoy moody stories as well as silver-agey stuff, as long as it's good.
But Loeb's Silver Agey stuff, just didn't cut it for me. But hey, maybe he's better at other type of stories.



> even though Loeb might have known what kind of story arcs he wanted to tell in S/B... LONG HALLOWEEN is a finite story. and that gives him a chance to set the tone and mood for every scene.
>
> the other big difference is Mr. Tim Sale.


Tim Sale always marks a difference. The guy is THAT good.



> when he and Jeph Loeb are together, it's pretty much nothing short of magic (see Daredevil: Yellow, Spider-Man: Blue, and Hulk: Grey).



Not much of a Marvel fan, sorry.
I used to be a big Avengers fan, till Avengers Disassembled, which I hated. I gave Marvel a second try with Captain America & the Falcon and The New Invaders and both got cancelled early.
First, they destroyed the Avengers (Avengers Disassembled); then the X-Men (House of M, and that "No more mutants" line), and now they destroyed everything else (in Civil War... the New Warriors killed, the Fantastic 4 split-up, Spiderman's identity made public... a mess, really).
Anyway, thanks a lot for your reply. It's been very helpful.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> Opinions are always respected. I myself started finding Loebs work on Superman/Batman a little odd if not down right confusing. But I find it kind of hard to compare the Year One title and The Long Halloween at all. As far as I know; and if I'm wrong someone please correct me, The Long Halloween was kind of like a re-telling of Batman's first encounters with Harvey Dent/Two-Face.


THAT sounds interesting. And it actually would've been a much better idea for Year Two than what we actually got.



> I'm not even sure that the story is actually credible to the Batman mythos. Year One is held as one of the most important storylines in Batman's history and I understand that many people will defend it if it ever falls under attack,


This is not the case, don't worry. I'm not all that of a fanboy, really. I liked Year One a big deal, but my questions about Long Halloween come from have never even glanced through a single page of it.



> but you may just be cheating yourself out of a damn fine Batman mystery tale by not reading Halloween. It is fast paced and leaves you guessing through the whole length of the tale.


Hmm... sounds interesting, but it's the resolution I'm always worried about whenever there is a mystery. I already had a massive disappointment with Identity Crisis, and I don't want to have to go through that again.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> Part of the big deal of "The Long Halloween" at the time was the mystery aspect -- people were putting lot of time and effort into figuring out Holiday's identity (for those who don't know, Holiday is a serial killer who strikes on every holiday, and no, I'm not telling who it is.)
>
> And I agree, Loeb and Sale truly compliment each other as a team.


Currently I'm enjoying Sale's art immensely in the first arc of Superman Confidential. It's a beautiful work.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> Definately would recomend The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, as both are some of the most entertaining Batman stories ever told.


I'll have it in mind. Thanks.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Progressive Lantern




> I enjoyed the Long Halloween, but I hated Superman/Batman.


Jeez, the Supergirl story-arc is down there in the Bottom-10 of worst DC stories ever, alongside Death of Superman and Emerald Twilight. Horrible work, and the art made it all much worse... the whole thing is unreadable, and unwatchable.



> LH is a good comic but it's not perfect.


Fair enough. I liked some not so perfect comics in the past.



> However, it is much better than Superman/Batman and for that matter Hush. I think Tim Sale's art managed to give it a certain mood that the other comics didn't have.



Tim Sale just can't get enough praise. That guy is beyond human.
Thanks a lot for your reply.





"Alright you primitive screw-heads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a 12-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan; retails for about one hundred nine, ninety-five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart!"
(by Ash Williams, from Army of Darkness).


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Windows XP
Lorendiac




> > I enjoyed the Long Halloween, but I hated Superman/Batman.
>
>
> Jeez, the Supergirl story-arc is down there in the Bottom-10 of worst DC stories ever, alongside Death of Superman and Emerald Twilight. Horrible work, and the art made it all much worse... the whole thing is unreadable, and unwatchable.
>
>

A few weeks I was looking through the "Comics" folder on my hard drive and stumbled across something I'd almost forgotten about. Some old notes for a scathing parody of the "Supergirl from Krypton" story arc; similar to what I did a few years ago in a parody of Jeph Loeb's "Hush." I started wondering if I ought to (shudder) reread the source material and then finish up the parody and post it? The plot holes, the wildly-out-of-character clueless assumptions, the this, the that, and the other thing that were all wrong with the arc?


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halloween jack




I'm going to 'big up' Long Halloween and Dark Victory. I think they're both more then credible. Ok, the ending was a bit 'whatsgoingonhere' but on the whole both books are a must for any Bat-Fan.

I think the problem with all Batman/Superman crossovers are the characters don't always work on the same format. Batman works best as a detective, Superman works trying to defeat some big bad. It's difficult to have a detective story for Bats to work out and a main antagonist for Superman to fight in one story.




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