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Starwolf




Okay, first thing. I don't think Leslie Thompkins *should* have killed Stephanie "Robin IV" Brown as some sort of warped point to Bruce about the dangers of costumed vigilantes.

I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away. I think this should be a VERY painful thing for Bruce, Tim, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and pretty much everyone in the Bat-family who knew, respected and trusted.

Tim, most of all, should say things like "I want to wave a magic wand so this never happened... but I can't."

Basically, Leslie killing Stephanie through deliberate lack of treatment is a bad thing. And bad things happen. And, time travel and Infinite Crisis notwithstanding, they can't un-happen. Leslie killing Stephanie should stay one of those things *because* of the rage it caused us all as fans.

They can really go somewhere with this, especially in Robin's book. What if Leslie is captured or turns herself in? How will the Bat-family react to that? How will Stephanie's father, the Cluemaster, react to that? I'm pretty sure I know how the Joker will react: "How DARE someone else kill Robin? *I* kill Robin! IT'S MY THING!!!"


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Icon




> Okay, first thing. I don't think Leslie Thompkins *should* have killed Stephanie "Robin IV" Brown as some sort of warped point to Bruce about the dangers of costumed vigilantes.

Well, that's tough luck, because that's still why she did it.

> I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away. I think this should be a VERY painful thing for Bruce, Tim, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and pretty much everyone in the Bat-family who knew, respected and trusted.
>
> Tim, most of all, should say things like "I want to wave a magic wand so this never happened... but I can't."


> Basically, Leslie killing Stephanie through deliberate lack of treatment is a bad thing.

It's not a "bad thing", it's MURDER.

>And bad things happen.

Murder need not happen, that's what makes it appalling.

>And, time travel and Infinite Crisis notwithstanding, they can't un-happen. Leslie killing Stephanie should stay one of those things *because* of the rage it caused us all as fans.

It didn't enrage me, it just reassured me I'd made the right choice in not touching Batman books for some years previously, and made sure I didn't buy any until Dini and Morrison took over.


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Blue Jay




> Okay, first thing. I don't think Leslie Thompkins *should* have killed Stephanie "Robin IV" Brown as some sort of warped point to Bruce about the dangers of costumed vigilantes.
>
> I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away. I think this should be a VERY painful thing for Bruce, Tim, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and pretty much everyone in the Bat-family who knew, respected and trusted.
>
> Tim, most of all, should say things like "I want to wave a magic wand so this never happened... but I can't."
>
> Basically, Leslie killing Stephanie through deliberate lack of treatment is a bad thing. And bad things happen. And, time travel and Infinite Crisis notwithstanding, they can't un-happen. Leslie killing Stephanie should stay one of those things *because* of the rage it caused us all as fans.
>
> They can really go somewhere with this, especially in Robin's book. What if Leslie is captured or turns herself in? How will the Bat-family react to that? How will Stephanie's father, the Cluemaster, react to that? I'm pretty sure I know how the Joker will react: "How DARE someone else kill Robin? *I* kill Robin! IT'S MY THING!!!"

I think a better more important issue should have been Batman figuring out that he has become unstable. Seriously, what kind of person is Batman when he keeps putting kids without any training in dangerous situations? Instead of facing up to this issue DC pulls a page out of Women in Refrigerator Syndrome and passes the buck to Leslie Thompkins. They also retcon Robin 2's death so that now Batman is free of blame as well.

On the other hand to be fair DC has had a big problem with sidekicks and Batman since day one because if Bob Kane had had his way Robin would never have been created and Batman would never ever have had a partner. This issue over the years has caused big problems. It is like there are two kinds of Batman, one with a partner and one without a partner and DC has been struggling to keep the two separate Bats as one entity which unfortunately has never really worked. Usually the results of such a fusion always end badly. Such as DC getting upset at Batman spending too much time with his partner so they then decide to kill off Batman's partner. Either that or have Batman almost never really need a partner and usually function better without a partner.

I really do not see there having been any logical reason for killing Robin 2 and Stephanie Brown if it in the end their deaths did not really affect Batman. Seriously, why introduce characters just to kill them off with meaningless deaths?






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TimPendragon




Waitaminute... Am I missing something? *Has* it been retconned? Or is it just that people are saying it should be?

> I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away.


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Starwolf




> Waitaminute... Am I missing something? *Has* it been retconned? Or is it just that people are saying it should be?
>
> > I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away.

They're a little vague if it has been retconned or not. Some people at conventions say that it has been retconned, according to some message boards. 52's "History of the DC Universe" didn't say that Leslie had killed Stephanie, just that Black Mask tortured her and she died. But so far, nothing concrete... as concrete as retcons get, at least. There hasn't been anything on the page in Batman book yet, as far as I know.



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Starwolf




> > Okay, first thing. I don't think Leslie Thompkins *should* have killed Stephanie "Robin IV" Brown as some sort of warped point to Bruce about the dangers of costumed vigilantes.
>
> Well, that's tough luck, because that's still why she did it.

I don't really care about the why. She shouldn't have done it in the first place, no matter her reasons. (I added the "as some sort of warped point" part as a clarification I guess wasn't really needed. Whoops.)
I didn't want anyone to think I'm saying "Leslie killing Steph was a good thing!" It's certainly wasn't. I'm just explaining why I don't think it should be retconned away. There's a lot of story potential there.

> > I think she should have done it and NOT have it retconned away. I think this should be a VERY painful thing for Bruce, Tim, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and pretty much everyone in the Bat-family who knew, respected and trusted.
> >
> > Tim, most of all, should say things like "I want to wave a magic wand so this never happened... but I can't."
>
>
> > Basically, Leslie killing Stephanie through deliberate lack of treatment is a bad thing.
>
> It's not a "bad thing", it's MURDER.
>
> >And bad things happen.
>
> Murder need not happen, that's what makes it appalling.

Hence, the enraged reaction. From both the fans and Batman.

> >And, time travel and Infinite Crisis notwithstanding, they can't un-happen. Leslie killing Stephanie should stay one of those things *because* of the rage it caused us all as fans.
>
> It didn't enrage me, it just reassured me I'd made the right choice in not touching Batman books for some years previously, and made sure I didn't buy any until Dini and Morrison took over.


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Mr_Vespa





> They're a little vague if it has been retconned or not. Some people at conventions say that it has been retconned, according to some message boards. 52's "History of the DC Universe" didn't say that Leslie had killed Stephanie, just that Black Mask tortured her and she died. But so far, nothing concrete... as concrete as retcons get, at least. There hasn't been anything on the page in Batman book yet, as far as I know.
>

Yeah, it seems to be one of those unofficial retcons. One where no one talks about it and we all just pretend it never happened. Even Willingham, the guy editorial tapped to write it, didn't much care for the story. Of course, that fact kind of gets lost in the big middle finger he gave the online community after it was published.

Still, I think it is a pretty simple fix. Not even a huge retcon needed. Simply state that Leslie was performing Triage. She had 4 patients in critical condition and barely enough resources for 3. Stephanie gets the short straw because triage states that you treat the patients with the highest chance of survival and Leslie factors in Steph's vigilante activities that significantly lower her long-term survivability. Still afterwards, she begins to feel incredibly guilty and begins questioning whether or not she was acting on the dictates of Triage or if she had given more personal weight to Steph's involvement with Bruce's crusade than she should have. So, in an act of self-recrimination, she falsifies records to make it look as if they had sufficient supplies and she simply withheld them out of spite and let Steph die intentionally. She then practices her role, waits for Bruce to track her down, and puts on a show to get Bruce to punish her as she believes she should be punished.

Simple, clean, doesn't overly trample on the proceeding writers, maintains the core character of Leslie Tompkins, but continues to allow for tension and separation between the characters.


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amy




>
> > They're a little vague if it has been retconned or not. Some people at conventions say that it has been retconned, according to some message boards. 52's "History of the DC Universe" didn't say that Leslie had killed Stephanie, just that Black Mask tortured her and she died. But so far, nothing concrete... as concrete as retcons get, at least. There hasn't been anything on the page in Batman book yet, as far as I know.
> >
>
> Yeah, it seems to be one of those unofficial retcons. One where no one talks about it and we all just pretend it never happened. Even Willingham, the guy editorial tapped to write it, didn't much care for the story. Of course, that fact kind of gets lost in the big middle finger he gave the online community after it was published.
>
> Still, I think it is a pretty simple fix. Not even a huge retcon needed. Simply state that Leslie was performing Triage. She had 4 patients in critical condition and barely enough resources for 3. Stephanie gets the short straw because triage states that you treat the patients with the highest chance of survival and Leslie factors in Steph's vigilante activities that significantly lower her long-term survivability. Still afterwards, she begins to feel incredibly guilty and begins questioning whether or not she was acting on the dictates of Triage or if she had given more personal weight to Steph's involvement with Bruce's crusade than she should have. So, in an act of self-recrimination, she falsifies records to make it look as if they had sufficient supplies and she simply withheld them out of spite and let Steph die intentionally. She then practices her role, waits for Bruce to track her down, and puts on a show to get Bruce to punish her as she believes she should be punished.
>
> Simple, clean, doesn't overly trample on the proceeding writers, maintains the core character of Leslie Tompkins, but continues to allow for tension and separation between the characters.

*applause applause*

they should make you one of their writers, my friend! \:\-D


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Mr_Vespa





> I think a better more important issue should have been Batman figuring out that he has become unstable. Seriously, what kind of person is Batman when he keeps putting kids without any training in dangerous situations? Instead of facing up to this issue DC pulls a page out of Women in Refrigerator Syndrome and passes the buck to Leslie Thompkins. They also retcon Robin 2's death so that now Batman is free of blame as well.
>

I honestly don't see how people keeping wanting to put the culpability for Stephanie's death on Batman. He had tried to get her off of the streets, on numerous occasions. There was an entire issue of Gotham Knights where he is proving to her that she isn't cut out for the game and that she should hang it up. The entire point of making her Robin was to try to give her some form of training that would hopefully keep her alive. When he saw that it wasn't working, he fired her and once again told her to stay off of the streets. Time and Time again he tried to get her to give up the game. He did not put Stephanie in the position that got her killed. He did everything in his power to prevent it. Steph simply refused to listen to reason from anyone.

And, I don't see how Steph's death could have served as a wake-up call. It validated everything he had predicted about her. Even poorly implemented, it validated the effectiveness of his War Game Protocol. Basically, War Games was 18+ issues of: Gosh, you were right all this time Batman. That's not going to wake anyone up.




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Blue Jay




>
> > I think a better more important issue should have been Batman figuring out that he has become unstable. Seriously, what kind of person is Batman when he keeps putting kids without any training in dangerous situations? Instead of facing up to this issue DC pulls a page out of Women in Refrigerator Syndrome and passes the buck to Leslie Thompkins. They also retcon Robin 2's death so that now Batman is free of blame as well.
> >
>
> I honestly don't see how people keeping wanting to put the culpability for Stephanie's death on Batman. He had tried to get her off of the streets, on numerous occasions. There was an entire issue of Gotham Knights where he is proving to her that she isn't cut out for the game and that she should hang it up. The entire point of making her Robin was to try to give her some form of training that would hopefully keep her alive. When he saw that it wasn't working, he fired her and once again told her to stay off of the streets. Time and Time again he tried to get her to give up the game. He did not put Stephanie in the position that got her killed. He did everything in his power to prevent it. Steph simply refused to listen to reason from anyone.
>
> And, I don't see how Steph's death could have served as a wake-up call. It validated everything he had predicted about her. Even poorly implemented, it validated the effectiveness of his War Game Protocol. Basically, War Games was 18+ issues of: Gosh, you were right all this time Batman. That's not going to wake anyone up.

Apparently you did not read the comics. In the comics there is some dispute as to just how much Batman is to blame for Stephanie's death. When Batman got Stephanie to be Robin's replacement even Alfred thought that Batman might be doing this just as a way to manipulate Robin into coming back. Like you said Stephanie was not ready, but Batman knowing she was not ready still put her in the position of being the fourth Robin. This where Batman's actions come completely into question and even Batman later admits that he was under so much stress that he may not have been thinking right. After Stephanie's death, the whole Batman gang, including Oracle, Nightwing, and Robin 3 say that Batman really messed up and was completely irresponsible in making Stephanie Robin 4. After hearing this Batman does not utter a word.

So there is a great deal of contention as to who is really to blame for Stephanie Brown's death. According to Batman it was Leslie, but according to Oracle, Nightwing, Robin 3, Alfred and Leslie it was Batman's fault. So, simply by number of votes it was Batman's fault.


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Mr_Vespa





> Apparently you did not read the comics. In the comics there is some dispute as to just how much Batman is to blame for Stephanie's death. When Batman got Stephanie to be Robin's replacement even Alfred thought that Batman might be doing this just as a way to manipulate Robin into coming back. Like you said Stephanie was not ready, but Batman knowing she was not ready still put her in the position of being the fourth Robin. This where Batman's actions come completely into question and even Batman later admits that he was under so much stress that he may not have been thinking right. After Stephanie's death, the whole Batman gang, including Oracle, Nightwing, and Robin 3 say that Batman really messed up and was completely irresponsible in making Stephanie Robin 4. After hearing this Batman does not utter a word.
>
> So there is a great deal of contention as to who is really to blame for Stephanie Brown's death. According to Batman it was Leslie, but according to Oracle, Nightwing, Robin 3, Alfred and Leslie it was Batman's fault. So, simply by number of votes it was Batman's fault.

So, they took a vote and decided it was Batman's fault? You realize how foolish that sounds? And yes, I did read the comic. While Alfred suspected that Steph as Robin was a play to manipulate Tim it was never fully established. And I spoke with Willingham (guys not a bad poker player and is a fun guy to have a brew with) who stated that was not his intention going into the story. So, you are left with a couple of interpretations as to why he made steph Robin. The fact remains, while making Steph Robin was a mistake, he rectified that error and told her under no uncertain terms that she was not continue her vigilante activities. That's like blaming a parent who repeatedly tells a child not to stick her finger in a wall socket only to have the child do just that the moment the parent's back was turned. Batman tried to provide Steph with training. Both when she was Spoiler and again when she was Robin. He determined that she did not have the make up to do the job and told her to quit. You want to blame someone, how about The Birds of Prey, Robin, or Batgirl, who kept encouraging her when they should have trusted Bruce's judgment on the matter.


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panther7




>
> > They're a little vague if it has been retconned or not. Some people at conventions say that it has been retconned, according to some message boards. 52's "History of the DC Universe" didn't say that Leslie had killed Stephanie, just that Black Mask tortured her and she died. But so far, nothing concrete... as concrete as retcons get, at least. There hasn't been anything on the page in Batman book yet, as far as I know.
> >
>
> Yeah, it seems to be one of those unofficial retcons. One where no one talks about it and we all just pretend it never happened. Even Willingham, the guy editorial tapped to write it, didn't much care for the story. Of course, that fact kind of gets lost in the big middle finger he gave the online community after it was published.
>
> Still, I think it is a pretty simple fix. Not even a huge retcon needed. Simply state that Leslie was performing Triage. She had 4 patients in critical condition and barely enough resources for 3. Stephanie gets the short straw because triage states that you treat the patients with the highest chance of survival and Leslie factors in Steph's vigilante activities that significantly lower her long-term survivability. Still afterwards, she begins to feel incredibly guilty and begins questioning whether or not she was acting on the dictates of Triage or if she had given more personal weight to Steph's involvement with Bruce's crusade than she should have. So, in an act of self-recrimination, she falsifies records to make it look as if they had sufficient supplies and she simply withheld them out of spite and let Steph die intentionally. She then practices her role, waits for Bruce to track her down, and puts on a show to get Bruce to punish her as she believes she should be punished.
>
> Simple, clean, doesn't overly trample on the proceeding writers, maintains the core character of Leslie Tompkins, but continues to allow for tension and separation between the characters.


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panther7




> >
> > > They're a little vague if it has been retconned or not. Some people at conventions say that it has been retconned, according to some message boards. 52's "History of the DC Universe" didn't say that Leslie had killed Stephanie, just that Black Mask tortured her and she died. But so far, nothing concrete... as concrete as retcons get, at least. There hasn't been anything on the page in Batman book yet, as far as I know.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, it seems to be one of those unofficial retcons. One where no one talks about it and we all just pretend it never happened. Even Willingham, the guy editorial tapped to write it, didn't much care for the story. Of course, that fact kind of gets lost in the big middle finger he gave the online community after it was published.
> >
> > Still, I think it is a pretty simple fix. Not even a huge retcon needed. Simply state that Leslie was performing Triage. She had 4 patients in critical condition and barely enough resources for 3. Stephanie gets the short straw because triage states that you treat the patients with the highest chance of survival and Leslie factors in Steph's vigilante activities that significantly lower her long-term survivability. Still afterwards, she begins to feel incredibly guilty and begins questioning whether or not she was acting on the dictates of Triage or if she had given more personal weight to Steph's involvement with Bruce's crusade than she should have. So, in an act of self-recrimination, she falsifies records to make it look as if they had sufficient supplies and she simply withheld them out of spite and let Steph die intentionally. She then practices her role, waits for Bruce to track her down, and puts on a show to get Bruce to punish her as she believes she should be punished.
> >
> > Simple, clean, doesn't overly trample on the proceeding writers, maintains the core character of Leslie Tompkins, but continues to allow for tension and separation between the characters.


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Thatguy




Getting an appalled reaction from readers isn't that hard or difficult. Anyone can do it, if they're willing to ignore logic and reason. The best example would be the OYL Robin arc that saw Cassandra Cain turn evil. People were rightly appalled by that because it was a terrible story on every level.

Making Leslie responsible drags down the Bat books as a whole. Yes, the books need a dark tone. But there must be some light within that darkness, some hope so as to not make the narrative sufficating. Leslie was part of that light, part of that hope.

No longer. As Icon put it so long ago, paraphrasing, there is no hope in Crime Alley anymore.

(especially when you consider the message behind Cass' recently reconned defection, but that's another thread entirely)


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Starwolf





>
> (especially when you consider the message behind Cass' recently reconned defection, but that's another thread entirely)

What's the "message" behind Cass's defection?


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Mr_Vespa




>
> >
> > (especially when you consider the message behind Cass' recently reconned defection, but that's another thread entirely)
>
> What's the "message" behind Cass's defection?

I'm assuming the message he is referring to is that you cannot escape your upbringing. If you were born an assassin, you were destined to become an assassin again later in life. But, that has already been retconned by Geoff Johns. So, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I also think that fans overstate Leslie's importance to the Bat-mythos. I never warmed to the character as she always seemed like she was the Adrian to Batman's Rocky, in that she was always nagging and b*tching and taking up screen time with long preachy monologues when the audience really just wants to get back to the action of the story. So, I don't miss her from the Mythos that much, but also think that they should have sent her character out in a different manner. Still, as I mention in another post int his thread, its still and easy fix at this point.




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Thatguy




> >
> > >
> > > (especially when you consider the message behind Cass' recently reconned defection, but that's another thread entirely)
> >
> > What's the "message" behind Cass's defection?
>
> I'm assuming the message he is referring to is that you cannot escape your upbringing. If you were born an assassin, you were destined to become an assassin again later in life. But, that has already been retconned by Geoff Johns. So, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

The original, intended message that 'you can't change who you are' remains the same, regardless of recons. And that's a pretty damn depressing message.
>
> I also think that fans overstate Leslie's importance to the Bat-mythos. I never warmed to the character as she always seemed like she was the Adrian to Batman's Rocky, in that she was always nagging and b*tching and taking up screen time with long preachy monologues when the audience really just wants to get back to the action of the story. So, I don't miss her from the Mythos that much, but also think that they should have sent her character out in a different manner. Still, as I mention in another post int his thread, its still and easy fix at this point.

Writers are charged with giving readers what they need, not what they want ;\)

Leslie function was to give an alternative view point, to break or to challenge Batman's world view. To drown readers in Batman's world 24/7 becomes repetitive, at best.


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Mr_Vespa





> Writers are charged with giving readers what they need, not what they want ;\)

Writers are charged to give us entertaining stories. Those who forget that fact and adopt this attitude tend to soapbox and spew pretentious crap. See Judd Winnick as an example of the phenomenon.
>
> Leslie function was to give an alternative view point, to break or to challenge Batman's world view. To drown readers in Batman's world 24/7 becomes repetitive, at best.

Right, which means she was redundant as we already have Robin, Nightwing, Alfred, Commissioner Gordan, and a host of other supporting characters that provided the same function, challenging Batman's world view. Any opposing viewpoint on an issue that She could have provided could easily be delegated to one of these other characters. Thus, she really had been reduced to just a nag towards the end. I don't agree with what was done to her character. But I hadn't found her interesting story wise for a while.


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Thatguy




>
> > Writers are charged with giving readers what they need, not what they want ;\)
>
> Writers are charged to give us entertaining stories. Those who forget that fact and adopt this attitude tend to soapbox and spew pretentious crap. See Judd Winnick as an example of the phenomenon.

I know. And what we want and what we need as readers are two different things.
> >
> > Leslie function was to give an alternative view point, to break or to challenge Batman's world view. To drown readers in Batman's world 24/7 becomes repetitive, at best.
>
> Right, which means she was redundant as we already have Robin, Nightwing, Alfred, Commissioner Gordan, and a host of other supporting characters that provided the same function, challenging Batman's world view. Any opposing viewpoint on an issue that She could have provided could easily be delegated to one of these other characters. Thus, she really had been reduced to just a nag towards the end. I don't agree with what was done to her character. But I hadn't found her interesting story wise for a while.

Leslie had a role in that regard equal only to Alfred. She knew Bruce both before and after he became Batman. None of those characters listed can say that.


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Blue Jay




>
> > Apparently you did not read the comics. In the comics there is some dispute as to just how much Batman is to blame for Stephanie's death. When Batman got Stephanie to be Robin's replacement even Alfred thought that Batman might be doing this just as a way to manipulate Robin into coming back. Like you said Stephanie was not ready, but Batman knowing she was not ready still put her in the position of being the fourth Robin. This where Batman's actions come completely into question and even Batman later admits that he was under so much stress that he may not have been thinking right. After Stephanie's death, the whole Batman gang, including Oracle, Nightwing, and Robin 3 say that Batman really messed up and was completely irresponsible in making Stephanie Robin 4. After hearing this Batman does not utter a word.
> >
> > So there is a great deal of contention as to who is really to blame for Stephanie Brown's death. According to Batman it was Leslie, but according to Oracle, Nightwing, Robin 3, Alfred and Leslie it was Batman's fault. So, simply by number of votes it was Batman's fault.
>
> So, they took a vote and decided it was Batman's fault? You realize how foolish that sounds? And yes, I did read the comic. While Alfred suspected that Steph as Robin was a play to manipulate Tim it was never fully established. And I spoke with Willingham (guys not a bad poker player and is a fun guy to have a brew with) who stated that was not his intention going into the story. So, you are left with a couple of interpretations as to why he made steph Robin. The fact remains, while making Steph Robin was a mistake, he rectified that error and told her under no uncertain terms that she was not continue her vigilante activities. That's like blaming a parent who repeatedly tells a child not to stick her finger in a wall socket only to have the child do just that the moment the parent's back was turned. Batman tried to provide Steph with training. Both when she was Spoiler and again when she was Robin. He determined that she did not have the make up to do the job and told her to quit. You want to blame someone, how about The Birds of Prey, Robin, or Batgirl, who kept encouraging her when they should have trusted Bruce's judgment on the matter.

I see your point of view, but it still reflects badly on Bruce. This was Bruce's fourth Robin, after all the mistakes he made with the previous Robins he should have known better and should have watched out better for Stephanie. Instead of giving her a normal life Bruce for some unexplained reason threw her unprepared into a world she was not ready for, trained her to live in that world and then expected her to leave that world behind when he himself cannot. This is quite egotistical, irresponsible and ludicrous.

However, DC are the real people to blame though as Wargames really makes no sense at all and is one of the worst chapters in Batman's life.


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Victor




The one thing that Batman the Animated Series understood is that, at the core of Batman's world there must be good, decent people that we care for. Of course, the heroes represent this, but the people of Gotham (Lucius, Leslie, Gordon, Bullock, Alfred) are trully the people Batman is fighting for.
They are Gotham.

Demeaning and otherwise disrespecting them ruins the story - They just become psychos in a mean spirited narrative. That's why nothing in a Batman comic in the last decade has come close to having the gentle power and resonance of BTAS.

Victor

> Getting an appalled reaction from readers isn't that hard or difficult. Anyone can do it, if they're willing to ignore logic and reason. The best example would be the OYL Robin arc that saw Cassandra Cain turn evil. People were rightly appalled by that because it was a terrible story on every level.
>
> Making Leslie responsible drags down the Bat books as a whole. Yes, the books need a dark tone. But there must be some light within that darkness, some hope so as to not make the narrative sufficating. Leslie was part of that light, part of that hope.
>
> No longer. As Icon put it so long ago, paraphrasing, there is no hope in Crime Alley anymore.
>
> (especially when you consider the message behind Cass' recently reconned defection, but that's another thread entirely)


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