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Robert





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Blue Beetle




> http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)


Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.

Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.

I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.




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Janus




> > http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)
>
>
> Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.
>
> Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.
>
> I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.
>
>
I disagree I think he looks fantastic. The clothes are perfect and he looks dignified and insane at the same time.

I heart Chris Nolan


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
BMK!




> > http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)
>
>
> Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.
>
> Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.
>
> I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.
>
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
BMK!




> > http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)
>
>
> Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.

You're right, the Joker is not a serial killer, just a mass murderer.

>
> Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.

Have you read "The Killing Joke"? The Joker is not Soupy Sales.

>
> I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.
>
>

Because of the appearance of the Joker, the movie may be unwatchable?? If that is how you feel, that's okay, don't watch the movie, but either way the Filmmakers needed a Joker that would fit within the context of the Batman Begins universe, and it fits...in my opinion.

-BMK!-


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omike015




> > > http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)
> >
> >
> > Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.
>
> You're right, the Joker is not a serial killer, just a mass murderer.
>
> >
> > Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.
>
> Have you read "The Killing Joke"? The Joker is not Soupy Sales.
>
> >
> > I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.
> >
> >
>
> Because of the appearance of the Joker, the movie may be unwatchable?? If that is how you feel, that's okay, don't watch the movie, but either way the Filmmakers needed a Joker that would fit within the context of the Batman Begins universe, and it fits...in my opinion.

I agree that the entire universe is off kilter.

omike015
:-|



kandor.monkeylord.net (10.0.1.245)
using Fortress Kryptonian Browsing Matrix v1.9.38 (0.36 points)
Omar Karindu




> http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)

My take on the look alone, which is not much at all to go by, is that this is a Joker who would look dangerous if I were to meet him, but who doesn't look like a danger to the film version of Batman. There's something about making him less visually absurd that makes him appear too...mortal to be much of a threat to a ninja-trained martial artist with billions of dollars in technology at his disposal. It doesn't say "terrifying madman genius" so much as "pretentious creep with a knife."

To be honest, a lot of that is the scarring. It doesn't make him look grotesque and frightening to me, it makes him look like like he should be on a gurney being prepped for reconstructive surgery. That is to say, I see it and think "injury" rather than "psychosis in the flesh." Having that much scar tissue and wounding right on your face doesn't make you a badass, it just makes you a guy who feels much more pain than an ordinary person when someone punches you in the kisser.

The more cartoonish Nicholson Joker got away with a lot for me because he looked like he belonged to an entirely different order of existence; his out-of-place clownishness made it visually acceptable when he did "unrealistic" things. It also made him a bit scarier in a sense, albeit that his Gotham was one of Tim Burton's equally bizarre Gothic theme park sets.

This, by contrast, is a mildly disfigured man in makeup and a garish suit. He seems neither supernaturally evil nor particularly hard to find and beat up. He certainly doesn't seem like someone who could hold a city under seige. Real serial killers really can't -- they rely on fear, but they're not exactly going to hold off a physically powerful, determined person in a confrontation.

Real serial killers, the ones most of us seem to agree are evoked up by this look for the Joker, instead pick targets they think are weaker than themselves -- younger women, the elderly, children and confused teens, the unsuspecting -- and use a combination of their normal appearance and their hidden viciousness to do what they do. And then they dissolve back into the population. They're not hard to catch because they're nigh-superhuman; they're hard to catch because you don't know what they look like or who they are beyond a hopelessly generic profile of "white male, aged 25 to 35, likely history of juvenile crime or unstable personal relationships."

This guy can't do that for extremely obvious reasons; Ted Bundy would have been caught within a day if he had this guy's under-the-makeup appearance. John Wayne Gacy could take the clown makeup off, and he didn't wear it to kill: he wore it as part of his mask of sanity and respectability, entertaining at children's parties.

I don't envy the filmmakers; something like this had to be done to the Joker to fit him into their very grounded version of Gotham. The problem is that the sort of character the Joker is, even in that very first story or two, is not realistic to begin with. In his first story, he has one of those perfect comic-books-only disguises at one point and an effectively magical set of poisons that do whatever the plot requires, including working on exact timetables when he advance-injects his first victim. Even in Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns, he gets gadgets like his sentient, flying bomb robots and mind-control chemicals at various points. You can't really make the Joker work without letting him mildly or seriously violate even the loosened version of realism that governs Batman.

Few of Batman's disfigured and thoroughly insane villains really are realistic, despite what we fans like to think. Realistically, that sort of catastrophic insanity coupled with disfigurement makes everything from recruiting underlings to forging workable plans to hiding out. Likewise, realistically grotesque psychotics -- as opposed to smoothly-attired sociopaths -- don't do so well in organized crime.

Remember, Batman Begins kept the Scarecrow in civilian clothing virtually until the very finish, and gave him both a respectable facade and a powerful backer to build him to the point that he could take on the Nolan Batman. And once he went insane, he was a raving loon who babbled so much that Katie Holmes dropped him with a taser before he did anything. To the extent that he was able to harm others, it was thanks to surprise, his concealed nerve gas, and in the cases of Rachel Dawes and Carmine Falcone, the fact that they didn't see him as anything other than a normal creep in a suit. No one is going to look at this Joker and see "deceptively normal." They're going to see "murderous lunatic in makeup; snipe him, officers."

Oddly enough, the problem is that this Joker may not be realistic enough. If the idea is that he uses theatricality and fear as does Batman, perhaps he needs a Joker face that he can take off completely rather than one that, in fidelity to the comics, is etched onto his face. If he can just wash the makeup off and vanish into the crowd in a more subdued suit, he can elude the Batman and get into police headquarters to gas them all or set bombs where he likes. This design seems like a compromise between the comics' impossible visuals and Batman Begins more than a concession to pseudo-realism.


All that said, I'll be quite interested to see what sorts of things the movie gives this Joker to do, since in the end that is what will determine whether or not any of this works. A really well-considered plot and the suggestion in the trailer that the Joker has the mobs at his disposal will go a long way to making him seem like a match for Batman.

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


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CrimsonThunder




> Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.

>Have you read "The Killing Joke"? The Joker is not Soupy Sales.

At that time.

But admit it. A psychopathic version of Soupy Sales would be a heck of a villian for Batman.

And I still maintain that Cruella De Ville would fit in perfect with the Arkham crowd

Jeff


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows 98
Blue Jay




> > > http://www.empireonline.com/heiscoming/ \:\-\)
> >
> >
> > Yuck. Is that what people really want the Joke to look like? He looks like a serial killer.
> >
> > Which I guess is what the modern Joker is supposed to be. Hannibal Lechter.
> >
> > I think this new movie may end up unwatchable for me, unfortunately.
> >
> >
> I disagree I think he looks fantastic. The clothes are perfect and he looks dignified and insane at the same time.
>
> I heart Chris Nolan

I am open minded to this design of the Joker. He looks really scary. He does look like an insane monster like Hannibal Lecter and this really is the only way Nolan could have gone because he is trying to create realistic characters that you can relate to.

Batman's Joker was just a cliched crazy mobster villain and a stereotypical portrayal of a madman by Jack Nicholson. No one related to him, but by Nolan humanizing the characters in Batman Begins and making them realistic everybody can relate them.

Hannibal Lecter is considered the greatest villain of all time in movies. Heath Ledger's Joker will give Hannibal Lecter some competition.

Heath Ledger according to various intervies worked hard on his portrayal of the Joker trying to get into the head of what makes such a complex madman tick. He literally became the Joker, he read the comics, tried to understand the Joker's psychology, worked on his joice and mannerisms to get the portrayal just right, and then went on to do this for weeks.

The only thing I do not like about the new Joker is that the white color might now just be makeup, but really thinking about the Joker falling into a vat of chemicals and this causing his skin to be perfectly permanently bleached white forever is hard to believe.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Blue Beetle




> And I still maintain that Cruella De Ville would fit in perfect with the Arkham crowd


Seconded! I love that! \:\)



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Icon




> I am open minded to this design of the Joker. He looks really scary. He does look like an insane monster like Hannibal Lecter and this really is the only way Nolan could have gone because he is trying to create realistic characters that you can relate to.

But can that work with a character like the Joker?

> Batman's Joker was just a cliched crazy mobster villain and a stereotypical portrayal of a madman by Jack Nicholson. No one related to him, but by Nolan humanizing the characters in Batman Begins and making them realistic everybody can relate them.
>
> Hannibal Lecter is considered the greatest villain of all time in movies.

Out of curiosity, by whom? I found him to be overblown, lacking in anything like genuine menace and played more like a panto villain by Anthony Hopkins.

> Heath Ledger according to various intervies worked hard on his portrayal of the Joker trying to get into the head of what makes such a complex madman tick. He literally became the Joker, he read the comics, tried to understand the Joker's psychology, worked on his joice and mannerisms to get the portrayal just right, and then went on to do this for weeks.

As the Joker in this movie seems to have not that much in common with the comics, one wonders why.

> The only thing I do not like about the new Joker is that the white color might now just be makeup, but really thinking about the Joker falling into a vat of chemicals and this causing his skin to be perfectly permanently bleached white forever is hard to believe.

And the rest of the Batman mythos isn't?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Blue Jay




> But can that work with a character like the Joker?

If done right, then yes. Nolan just has to find the right balance.

> Out of curiosity, by whom? I found him to be overblown, lacking in anything like genuine menace and played more like a panto villain by Anthony Hopkins.

Well, by people the world over, but the main group that brought attention to this are the American Film Institute that voted for the one hundred best heroes and villains in movie history. AFI voted for him as the number one movie villain of all time.

The Silence of the Lambs made Hannibal Lecter recognized as the best villain in movie history the world over.

The menace of Dr. Lecter is that you cannot hide anything from him and he can bring out your deepest darkest fears. Think about meeting this guy that eats people he does not like but instead of attacking you he sits there just staring into your eyes telling you your biggest darkest secrets, taking away all your mental defense mechanisums, and then slowly but surely getting into your head as you watch him paint a masterpiece. If you are lucky you might not go insane, you might instead become his puppoet, or at worst become his meal.

>As the Joker in this movie seems to have not that much in common with the comics, one wonders why.

Well, we will have to wait and see for that to be sure, but so far I think he does have much in common with his comic book counterpart.

>And the rest of the Batman mythos isn't?

Depends on which comics of the Batman mythos you read. I try to read the most realistic ones only.



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seito




Your argument is contingent on the film Joker behaving like the comic Joker or something close to that. If this movie is more detective oriented and simply based on the Joker committing homicide then I think it can work. I'm optimistic.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Omar Karindu




> Your argument is contingent on the film Joker behaving like the comic Joker or something close to that. If this movie is more detective oriented and simply based on the Joker committing homicide then I think it can work. I'm optimistic.

No, my argument is based on the film stills showing Heath Ledger wandering around in public places kicking Batman and so forth, and I repeatedly compared him to real-world serial killers rather than to the comics Joker.

To quote my own post:

Real serial killers, the ones most of us seem to agree are evoked up by this look for the Joker, instead pick targets they think are weaker than themselves -- younger women, the elderly, children and confused teens, the unsuspecting -- and use a combination of their normal appearance and their hidden viciousness to do what they do. And then they dissolve back into the population. They're not hard to catch because they're nigh-superhuman; they're hard to catch because you don't know what they look like or who they are beyond a hopelessly generic profile of "white male, aged 25 to 35, likely history of juvenile crime or unstable personal relationships."

This guy can't do that for extremely obvious reasons; Ted Bundy would have been caught within a day if he had this guy's under-the-makeup appearance. John Wayne Gacy could take the clown makeup off, and he didn't wear it to kill: he wore it as part of his mask of sanity and respectability, entertaining at children's parties.


As to optimism, reread my closing sentences:

"All that said, I'll be quite interested to see what sorts of things the movie gives this Joker to do, since in the end that is what will determine whether or not any of this works. A really well-considered plot and the suggestion in the trailer that the Joker has the mobs at his disposal will go a long way to making him seem like a match for Batman."

- Omar Karindu

"A Renoir. I have three, myself. I had four, but ordered one burned...It displeased me." -- Doctor Doom

"It's not, 'Oh, they killed Sue Dibney and I always loved that character,' it's 'Oh, they broke a story engine that could have told a thousand stories in order to publish a single 'important' one.'" -- John Seavey


Posted with Apple Safari 3.0.4 on MacOS X
Icon




> As to optimism, reread my closing sentences:
>
> "All that said, I'll be quite interested to see what sorts of things the movie gives this Joker to do, since in the end that is what will determine whether or not any of this works. A really well-considered plot and the suggestion in the trailer that the Joker has the mobs at his disposal will go a long way to making him seem like a match for Batman."

The spoiler I have read suggests that the Joker will have stolen the assorted Mob's money, so essentially he has their entire income as a hostage, and they HAVE to work for him.

So not sure if "serial killer" is the way they are going to go.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.11 on Windows XP
Blue Beetle




> The spoiler I have read suggests that the Joker will have stolen the assorted Mob's money, so essentially he has their entire income as a hostage, and they HAVE to work for him.


Because they can't bop him over the head, tie him up, and torture him until he tells them where the money is? (I don't expect you to have the answer to that question.)


>
> So not sure if "serial killer" is the way they are going to go.


I just get a ghastly vibe from the whole thing. Blecch.



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Blue Jay




> > The spoiler I have read suggests that the Joker will have stolen the assorted Mob's money, so essentially he has their entire income as a hostage, and they HAVE to work for him.
>
>
> Because they can't bop him over the head, tie him up, and torture him until he tells them where the money is? (I don't expect you to have the answer to that question.)
>
>

Sounds more like something the Mob would do to the Joker to get him to work for them.

If, it is the Joker he probably has some way of destroying all the money if the Mob does not leave him alone. Like maybe he has to enter a code like every four hours somewhere or a bomb goes off that destroys all the money.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Icon




> > The spoiler I have read suggests that the Joker will have stolen the assorted Mob's money, so essentially he has their entire income as a hostage, and they HAVE to work for him.
>
>
> Because they can't bop him over the head, tie him up, and torture him until he tells them where the money is? (I don't expect you to have the answer to that question.)

Or more simply he's contaminated the money with Joker venom, so they know where it is, they simply can't use any of it unless he gives them the counteragent.


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Blue Beetle




> > Because they can't bop him over the head, tie him up, and torture him until he tells them where the money is? (I don't expect you to have the answer to that question.)
>
> Or more simply he's contaminated the money with Joker venom, so they know where it is, they simply can't use any of it unless he gives them the counteragent.


Wow! Now that's clever! Totally plausible. I like it!




Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
Gernot




> > But can that work with a character like the Joker?
>
> If done right, then yes. Nolan just has to find the right balance.
>
> > Out of curiosity, by whom? I found him to be overblown, lacking in anything like genuine menace and played more like a panto villain by Anthony Hopkins.
>
> Well, by people the world over, but the main group that brought attention to this are the American Film Institute that voted for the one hundred best heroes and villains in movie history. AFI voted for him as the number one movie villain of all time.
>
> The Silence of the Lambs made Hannibal Lecter recognized as the best villain in movie history the world over.
>
> The menace of Dr. Lecter is that you cannot hide anything from him and he can bring out your deepest darkest fears. Think about meeting this guy that eats people he does not like but instead of attacking you he sits there just staring into your eyes telling you your biggest darkest secrets, taking away all your mental defense mechanisums, and then slowly but surely getting into your head as you watch him paint a masterpiece. If you are lucky you might not go insane, you might instead become his puppoet, or at worst become his meal.
>
> >As the Joker in this movie seems to have not that much in common with the comics, one wonders why.
>
> Well, we will have to wait and see for that to be sure, but so far I think he does have much in common with his comic book counterpart.
>
> >And the rest of the Batman mythos isn't?
>
> Depends on which comics of the Batman mythos you read. I try to read the most realistic ones only.
>

Heh. I'll bet you don't read very much! \:D

Gernot...

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