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thorfan




We've seen the hulk way above class 100 showings, im sure that others have showings high above that also(probably anyone who's ever held up a building) in your opinion is It a good way to rank strength? In other words why not class 500, class 1000?


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THUNDERER!




Thor Just lifted the biggest mountain in Jotunheim in the latest issue of TGOT, a hundred tons is nothing....and a horrible estimation, they should be called mountain movers or earth shakers...imho


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bd2999

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    We've seen the hulk way above class 100 showings, im sure that others have showings high above that also(probably anyone who's ever held up a building) in your opinion is It a good way to rank strength? In other words why not class 500, class 1000?


Yes, but it is simply a classic measure. Guys in lower classes occasionally reach way out of their weight class. Whatever scale you pick is arbitrary since strength stuff is mostly story driven. I think it works to compare characters still.




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Sir PoetTree


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,871






"And when his anger is incalculable, the Hulk is simply the strongest one there is." --Greg Pak
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Toe Rag


Member Since: Mon May 14, 2012


I think using the numbers as tonnage is incorrect. To me, Class 100 doesn't mean 100 tons. Class 100 means one of the top classes - able to lift a tremendous amount of weight. When we see Thor lift a mountain, it's obvious he's lifting substantially more than 100 tons. Only Class Incalculable is higher and is reserved for beings whose strength cannot truly be measured. Because of his variable strength, the Hulk is in this class. How do you measure the strength level of someone who's strength can increase? It's not possible.

And I consider these classes to be based upon physical strength, not the ability to affect gravity, magnetic fields, or manipulate energy. To me, these are different forms of energy projection.


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Incriptus


Location: Incriptus
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,716






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Volstagg jr




The thing is class 100 characters have so many strength feats many times exceeding 100 tons, it makes it silly that a 95 tonner could even remotely touch these beings. It would be like a NFL lineman fighting a 1 year old baby. A few examples of this are:

When Gladiator lifts The Baxter Building

When Hulk holds up a mountain

When Sentry catches The SHIELD Hellicarrier

When Thor lifts The Midgard Serpent

When Hercules hauls the Island of Manhattan

When Hyperion stops two worlds from colliding.

When Namor flies carrying a battleship


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Thor_The_Mighty






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fearcalypse 

INfinity and BEyond

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,337


this scale:

Normal human
Peak human
Enhanced
Super Strength
Vast Super Strength
Incalculable Strength






"James told me there's an old saying here on Earth: May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead.
Not sure if Turian heaven is the same as yours, but if this thing goes sideways and we both end up there, meet me at the bar."


Legion: "They will exterminate your species because their gods tell them to. You cannot negotiate with them. They do not share your pity, remorse, or fear."
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fearcalypse 

INfinity and BEyond

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,337








"James told me there's an old saying here on Earth: May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead.
Not sure if Turian heaven is the same as yours, but if this thing goes sideways and we both end up there, meet me at the bar."


Legion: "They will exterminate your species because their gods tell them to. You cannot negotiate with them. They do not share your pity, remorse, or fear."
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The Real Lance Eason





It just means roughly 95% as strong as someone in the Class 100 range. Otherwise, as you say, it couldn't work.
I think, at heart, the system is flawed. I think the original handbooks used the tonnage rankings without really taking into account showings that clearly put characters' strength levels at way, way above 100 tons. The "Class 100" designation was already suitably vague (described as being "routinely able to lift (press) in excess of 100 tons") but kinda/sorta/not-quite-but-almost Class 100 guys like the Thing were listed as being able to lift a specific maximum weight which was always way too low. Because of how handy the ranking system seemed to be, people have kept the language and abandoned the literal interpretation. I see how we got where we are, and it's kind of been made to work, but we could stand to have something better.



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Fifthchild


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,474




    Quote:
    We've seen the hulk way above class 100 showings, im sure that others have showings high above that also(probably anyone who's ever held up a building) in your opinion is It a good way to rank strength? In other words why not class 500, class 1000?



Basically as others have said if you divorce the idea of 100, 90 etc from anything to do with actual tonnage then it works ok-ish - a 100 is roughly equal to a 100 and a 90 is roughly 90% as strong as a 100. However even then it breaks down - A Class 100 character is not 100 times as strong as a guy a little bit stronger than Daredevil or 10 times as strong as SpiderMan (though many maintain that Spidey should never have been ranked at 10 tons in the first place).

As someone else has pointed out before the scale is somewhat non-linear therefore - while a class 9 guy is very close to a Class 10 guy and a CLass 90 guy is fairly close to a Class 100 guy its probably more like a linear scale....which is hardly intuitive.

If you try to tie it to actual numbers then its completely broken.






His Holiness The Pope
The Church of Hulk
St Jones Church, New Mexico
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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    We've seen the hulk way above class 100 showings, im sure that others have showings high above that also(probably anyone who's ever held up a building) in your opinion is It a good way to rank strength? In other words why not class 500, class 1000?


...that people won't let go no matter what. Kind of like not being able to forgo the imperial system for the metric one I guess.

It was originally designed to be a literal system. class 10 meant 10 tons and so on up to class 100 that was 100 tons and up (what a worthless class if I ever saw one). 

Fans have made all sorts of tweeking in the vain hope to make the system work with comics, but  it resulted is a very subjective and arbitrary creature. Worse, people use that thing across the board as gospel truth force-fitting everything in it.

Now, if it wasn't already clear, I hate that system. 




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Braugi




as a basic guage of strength on a 100 pt scale... but, there have been too many people to get that designation, and there's some fairly clear differentiation now in the 'class' that its become pretty worthless IMO.


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Ragnarok




It provides no real answers or even guidelines leading to rampant speculation, disagreements, and constant discussion. What more could a publisher hope for?


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THUNDERER!




For example,
100% strength Class just below limitless
95%
90%
85%
80%
ect.....

so say the Ben Grimm Thing would be considered 95% well he has 95% of the strength to be in the limitless strength class, but falls pretty damn short of it...

would this be more appropriate?




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Anima Spiritia


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


How about concete examples of what they max out able to lift/hurl though?

Lifting a :

Car
Semi
Small building
Skyscrapper
Mountain
Moon
earth



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Sir PoetTree


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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"And when his anger is incalculable, the Hulk is simply the strongest one there is." --Greg Pak
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Fifthchild


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,474




    Quote:
    For example,
    100% strength Class just below limitless
    95%
    90%
    85%
    80%
    ect.....



    Quote:
    so say the Ben Grimm Thing would be considered 95% well he has 95% of the strength to be in the limitless strength class, but falls pretty damn short of it...



    Quote:
    would this be more appropriate?


As i said in my answer i still think it has problems - I dont think Spiderman can lift 10% of what Thor can for instance. Spiderman can literally lift around 10 tons. 100 tons is the weight of a small house. Problem.

Now in a fight you could probably argue that Spiderman will look about 10% as strong as Thor or Hyperion rather than thousands or millions of times weaker.







His Holiness The Pope
The Church of Hulk
St Jones Church, New Mexico
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Incriptus


Location: Incriptus
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,716


Spiderman can't lift that much ... well he spent some karma and got a red result, now he can!




Only Drax the Legend can quote Drax the Legend. NT · Drax the Legend
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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    It provides no real answers or even guidelines leading to rampant speculation, disagreements, and constant discussion. What more could a publisher hope for?

The problem is the publisher never made a scale that was anything like that. The scale, as designed, was very precise, and literal up to class-100.

Even the fan-made version is barely able to inform the reader that 60 is stronger than 50. In statistical terms, we have an ordinal scale that is very hard to use to classify characters otherwise than arbitrarily. How do we figure someone is class 70 if 70 isn't 70 tons and that the intervals of any class can't be assumed to be equals to one another (remember that we are on an ordinal scale not a continuous one)? So when people assume class-500 is 5 times class 100 it is doubly fallacious and illogical. The scale is ordinal so there is no possible way to assume 500 represent 5 times 100. Beside, the scale as designed is open-ended and has the same flaw any ordinal open-ended scale has. You can't discriminate anything that reside in the open-ended interval. It is even worse in Marvel's scale because that category comes extremely fast. It'S like a scale that would be very detailed about income where the categories would be 0 - 1000$, 1000 - 10k, 10 - 20k, etc up to 100+k. Can anyone really say that you can't possibly discriminate between Bill Gates and someone making 101k /years even though because they both fall inside the open-ended interval?

In other words, that scale is next to worthless except for people below class-100 and then only to tell us who is stronger with no way to say by how much.




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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    For example,
    100% strength Class just below limitless
    95%
    90%
    85%
    80%
    ect.....



    Quote:
    so say the Ben Grimm Thing would be considered 95% well he has 95% of the strength to be in the limitless strength class, but falls pretty damn short of it...



    Quote:
    would this be more appropriate?


...and what is 80% of that non-sense for that matter?





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THUNDERER!




But by that time the numbers are so ridiculous there is no purpose in counting any more...

Thor or Superman would be 100% because they can lift into territories that are pretty much beyond calculating but still below limitless because what is limitless exactly? Nobody knows...


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bd2999

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Spiderman can't lift that much ... well he spent some karma and got a red result, now he can!


I liked that aspect though, it helps make it more in line with the comics. Normally he can lift x (I think SM had Amazing strength but I do not remember) but if he got the card he could do more. Mutants and Mastermind sort of does the same thing with stunts.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Fifthchild


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 9,474




    Quote:
    But by that time the numbers are so ridiculous there is no purpose in counting any more...



    Quote:
    Thor or Superman would be 100% because they can lift into territories that are pretty much beyond calculating but still below limitless because what is limitless exactly? Nobody knows...


Everybody knows what limitless is - it means having no limit. I dont really think you could have an object whose weight had no limit but then again in fiction things that dont make sense can and do happen. Still, I dont think Superman or Thor in their normal incarnations can typically list weights that are beyond calculating - even mountains and planets are very much calculable - they are just very big.







His Holiness The Pope
The Church of Hulk
St Jones Church, New Mexico
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RodimusPrime


Member Since: Sat Nov 15, 2008
Posts: 3,200


... freaking LOVE that game! Finally got the cash to buy Herolab and it's driving my GF nuts because all I've been doing is building characters.


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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    But by that time the numbers are so ridiculous there is no purpose in counting any more...



    Quote:
    Thor or Superman would be 100% because they can lift into territories that are pretty much beyond calculating but still below limitless because what is limitless exactly? Nobody knows...

What exactly is "beyond calculation"?





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THUNDERER!






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Would be Watcher


Location: Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



...you give an unusable frame of reference. What is "incalculable"? A mountain is calculable, a planet also is and so on. So where do you draw a line? If you can't or you don't how are we suppose to know who is illegible to "class-100"?



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