In Ultimates² #6, Al Ewing gives us the origin of the First Firmament and as such, gives us the earliest events in the Marvel Universe, that is, 8 universes/multiverses ago. The First Firmament is the abstract entity representing the very first universe. The first living things worshipped the First Firmament and were called Aspirants. Among the Aspirants were the first Celestials, who rebelled and ultimately defeated the Aspirants and the First Firmament, who was shattered into pieces, but it survived and fled into the void. The Celestials then created the first multiverse, which has died and been reborn several times since. During the death of the seventh iteration and its rebirth, the First Firmament took advantage of the multiverse Eternity being in a weakened state and chained it. It then corrupted Master Order leading to the creation of Logos.

Ewing is certainly a continuity nut in reiterating the Celestials creating the multiverse from what is probably a forgotten X-Men story. Then he introduces the Psi-Force and accompanying Psi-Hawk entity and subtly links it to Chthon without mentioning Chthon by name. We get to see the Ultimates and the Troubleshooters and Galactus take on a surviving Aspirant, which the First Firmament also calls “Astro-Gods” and “Dark Celestials.”

It’s a great issue. My only complaint is that it wraps up too quickly with a shoehorning of America Chavez into her solo series. It’d be better if Marvel didn’t try to reconcile the Ultimates stories with the solo stories of Miss America, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel because they just can’t be. The multiversal threat of the First Firmament would take precedent over everything else happening in the solo series.

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In Ultimates² #6, Al Ewing gives us the origin of the First Firmament and as such, gives us the earliest events in the Marvel Universe, that is, 8 universes/multiverses ago. The First Firmament is the abstract entity representing the very first universe. The first living things worshipped the First Firmament and were called Aspirants. Among the Aspirants were the first Celestials, who rebelled and ultimately defeated the Aspirants and the First Firmament, who was shattered into pieces, but it survived and fled into the void. The Celestials then created the first multiverse, which has died and been reborn several times since. During the death of the seventh iteration and its rebirth, the First Firmament took advantage of the multiverse Eternity being in a weakened state and chained it. It then corrupted Master Order leading to the creation of Logos.

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Ewing is certainly a continuity nut in reiterating the Celestials creating the multiverse from what is probably a forgotten X-Men story. Then he introduces the Psi-Force and accompanying Psi-Hawk entity and subtly links it to Chthon without mentioning Chthon by name. We get to see the Ultimates and the Troubleshooters and Galactus take on a surviving Aspirant, which the First Firmament also calls “Astro-Gods” and “Dark Celestials.”

I believe astro-gods is a reference to the genocidal beings from the First Firmament mentioned in the Marvel Boy mini.

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It’s a great issue. My only complaint is that it wraps up too quickly with a shoehorning of America Chavez into her solo series. It’d be better if Marvel didn’t try to reconcile the Ultimates stories with the solo stories of Miss America, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel because they just can’t be. The multiversal threat of the First Firmament would take precedent over everything else happening in the solo series.

What is the Psi-Forcce again? Is that from that old New Universe from the 80's? This sounds good. When is the  trade coming out?

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What is the Psi-Forcce again? Is that from that old New Universe from the 80's? This sounds good. When is the  trade coming out?

Yeah the Psi Force were from the New Universe. They created some sort of psychic construct called Psi-Hawk that looked like some dead Native American guy they knew. They were kind of like the Forever People and Infinity Man.

I wonder what it is about groups of 5 joining together to create an avatar...Captain Planet, Voltron, Power Rangers, Forever People, Psi-Force etc

The first multiverse was born from the new universes that sprung forth after the First Firmament fractured during the war between the Aspirants and the Celestials. The Celestials just populated the first multiverse

Your statement is clearer than mine, but since the Celestials shattered the First Firmament in the first place, they still did create the multiverse from that action. My language inaccurately makes it sound like the Celestials created the multiverse from scratch.

Sounded interesting right up until the words 'America Chavez'. I'll keep my eyes open for Britain Patel...
Vudar

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Sounded interesting right up until the words 'America Chavez'. I'll keep my eyes open for Britain Patel...
Vudar

I know she's like adding dog poo to a cake recipe. You'd have a nice cake if it wasn't for that one discordant element.

Nah, she's one of the more interesting characters Marvel has.

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Sounded interesting right up until the words 'America Chavez'. I'll keep my eyes open for Britain Patel...
Vudar


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I know she's like adding dog poo to a cake recipe. You'd have a nice cake if it wasn't for that one discordant element.

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Nah, she's one of the more interesting characters Marvel has.

No she isn't.

I agree.

That was a good read and so maybe it is a first impression thing but she is no worse or better than any other average character.

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That was a good read and so maybe it is a first impression thing but she is no worse or better than any other average character.

Bah she dresses like she stepped out of Madonna's Borderline video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSaC-YbSDpo

So what's the Builders/Celestials connection, the origin of the Infinity Gems (was the First Firmament the Nemesis entity?), a Sentry/Void revelation would have been cool. And how do the Beyonders fit in (always thought their reference to Those Who Sit In Shadow was pretty interesting.. Loki pages), and what's the FF's connection to the One Above All (non Celestial guy)? Maybe I'm asking a bit much.. but I have to say.. I wasn't impressed. So the very first entity from the first universe is now evil. Galactus is the lifebringer. And Chavez is suddenly a major character and a universal player. Not interested.

So the Celestials were the first Race to arise in the first Marvel Universe, and have existed across all of the rest afterwards?

Did the Firdst Filiament actuallyt create the first universe, if not, who did? And so it was lkike the first eternity?

And Galactus was the Eternity from the prior Universe then?

A writer could later create a connection, but there isn't one now or at least, there's no reason to believe there is one.




No. Given the story here, the Nemesis entity was just one universe of the 6th iteration of the multiverse. The Infinity Gauntlet is not a multiversal power and is limited in scope to the subsequent universe after the "parent" universe's death.




The Beyonders do not fit in. They are beyond or foreign to the entire multiverse.




TOAA has repeatedly been shown as a metaphor for the creators at Marvel. Thus, TOAA created the FF.




Yes, you are asking too much if you want the story to tie up every cosmic loose end in the history of Marvel.




Your loss.

Yes.




The First Firmament did not create the first universe. The First Firmament is the first universe. Obviously it was created by The One Above All.




Not exactly. Galactus is not Eternity per se. He is the last survivor of the previous universe, Galan, bonded with the sentience of his universe's Eternity, which is from the sixth iteration of the multiverse.

So the TOAA is still shown as their supreme Being, and Galen merged with that Universe eternity, and became Galactus once popped out into the next Universe?

ToAA is rarely mentioned in books other than as a reference to the comic creators themselves. Cosmics (often the LT) refer to a higher power but what it is exactly is not always that clear either. As it does not seem to get involved. Unless it is usually entertainment reasons.

Thanos with the HotU went looking for it but did not find it. Just the flaw in reality.

More or less he is a merger between the old realities dying Eternity and Galen. The exact term was sentience of the previous universe but it equates to the same thing in the end, I think.

That origin really has never been changed. I am not fully caught up on Ultimates yet, but there may or may not have been similar entities in previous universes. Hickman and others have implied (sort of taking on from Bryne's last Galactus story) that Galactus helps trigger the formation of the next universe. Thus fulfilling the promise of giving more than he has taken away etc. Even the Mad Celestials acknowledged his purpose.

Lifebringer has thrown a bit of a wrench in that in one respect. Although I have enjoyed seeing Galactus in a more heroic light. We have seen something akin before. Like in Annihilation his war with the Promial gods near the start of things. But that was more because they started something with Galactus as opposed to him seeking to do much else.

I'm sure many longtime readers would be interested in that story, myself included.







Tell that to Thanos.. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/LZmVJdtj3MivsgsNJ15H5gH3qr64euCB0dfRieJTO_aGVoXLgqwgqJK88bWlcrcDolxiS1VrTSyB=s0







Fair enough.







I can accept that. Just like he created this guy.. http://img.cinemablend.com/cb/2/a/6/4/9/0/2a64908b299a15b0b9c9aeef4d3e62f3e05dc0465d6c3435ef89b6f9465e509c.jpg







Not every loose end, but I like it when a plan comes together. I just find a lot of the current stories somewhat lacking in creativity nowadays. So many great characters with so much story potential and I'm just not seeing it anymore. Secret Wars 2, possibly the biggest historical event in the MU.. and so anticlimactic. It could've been SO much better.







Marvel's loss. My disappointment.

Well, that has since been retconned. We've seen multiple Infinity Gauntlets from different universes which have failed to work outside of the universe it was from. We saw this on Secret Wars' Battleworld where Black Panther could only use his Infinity Gauntlet when he was in the region that IG came from. It was also the case in JLA/Avengers when Darkseid briefly held the IG (though I'm dubious as to that story's continuity).







Well, you just asked about a bunch of stories unrelated to the one that Ewing is telling so it's unfair to ask that he resolve those plot threads. Anyway, it's unfair to generalize Marvel as a whole. As always, Marvel (and any other comics company) has good writers and bad writers. They aren't all the same and can't be painted with one brush. You didn't like Hickman's story. That doesn't mean you won't like Ewing's.




Well, several people on these boards, myself included, find the Ultimates series the best thing Marvel is putting out right now. It's your loss dismissing it out of hand.

That is true. Yet here the entity is presented almost in an identical light as the First Firmament. But yes, the gems have seemingly lost their luster since then.







Of course not. I actually liked Ewing's Loki Agent of Asgard. I think he's a good writer. I just didn't care for his particular ideas in this series. Sure there will always be good and bad writers but if a writer is going to be responsible for a story of this magnitude, the Origin of the MU for instance, certain elements need to be addressed. It's the most "relatable" story by its very nature. Exploring the origins of the MU I find commendable, but you're going to have to bring your best game to do it right. Expectations are going to be justifiably high from readers who've invested years in the marvel continuity. Just not a ride I want to take with characters like Anti-Man, alternate versions of New Universe characters and Chavez.








Sad to say the competition isn't hard to beat these days.. but I've read the issues. Moving forward, hopefully it's gets better.

in other words, you were wrong.

No. The multiverse was created by shattering the First Firmament. The Celestials are the ones who shattered the First Firmament. Therefore, the Celestials created the multiverse.

You might want to learn the difference between causation and creation.

And you might want to spend your time more wisely than nitpicking semantics. Causation and creation are not mutually exclusive.

And you might want to learn how to construct a coherent syllogism.

Let's review your effort:

The multiverse was created by shattering the First Firmament. The Celestials are the ones who shattered the First Firmament. Therefore, the Celestials created the multiverse.


The major premise is incorrect: the text runs thus: "A war that shattered me into pieces. In the final conflagration -as the rebels detonated their unimaginable weapons - hundreds of new universes split off from my new pure substance. In terror - to preserve my uniqueness, my very self - I fled to the furthest edges of my being, my remaining aspirants inside me. And behind me, those new universes coalesced, forming a new, collective entity. A second cosmos - and the first of a new breed. The first multiverse."

The causal chain here is clearly spelled out - the First Firmament is shattered, which results in the splitting of hundreds of new universes. The multiverse is created only when these hundreds of universes then coalesce.

Let x = the shattering of the First Firmament
Let y = the creation of the multiverse
Let z = the coalescing of hundreds of post Firmament universes

The assertion x → y is here incorrect, since it does not take into account the causal role of z.

Let w = the splitting of hundreds of new universes, then the only conditionals that the above passage justifies is as follows:

x → w
z → y


Onto your minor premise: "The Celestials are the ones who shattered the First Firmament". Yet the text runs thus: "I like them. I named them Aspirants. But there were others. Multicolored rebels... It was madness and sacrilege. It was war. A war that shattered me into pieces."

The text is clear. Responsibility for the shattering of the First Firmament rests not just with the Celestials, but with the war between them and the Aspirants, a war that was "madness", a "sacrilege" and that led to the First Firmament being "shattered into pieces". The Celestials may have supplied the coup de grace (the detonation of their "unimaginable weapons"), but the responsibility clearly rests not with this act but with the war itself.

We thus have an incorrect major premise, an (at best) incomplete minor premise and a fallacious conclusion. But hey let's just relabel bad logic "nitpicking semantics" shall we?

z is not some separable element from x. x led to z which led to y. If no x, then no z. If no x, then no y. That's all my point was, so yeah, you're just nitpicking semantics.










Wow, a lot more nitpicking semantics and meaningless parsing on your part. This statement, "The Celestials may have supplied the coup de grace (the detonation of their 'unimaginable weapons'), but the responsibility clearly rests not with this act but with the war itself." is just eye-rollingly desperate. You're disparaging Wittgenstein's name.

By the way, way to go, posting under a new alias to get around my ignore filter. Ignore filter now reapplied.

No, that was not your point at all. Your point was that the Celestials created the multiverse. Your point was not that one event happened, followed by another event, followed by another event, resulting in the creation of the multiverse.

I am exposing the fallacious logic of your argument, which you have not addressed. You initially attempted to claim that that the Celestials created the multiverse. That claim is fallacious, wrong, incorrect, nonsense, rubbish, disproven.

Instead you are now attempting to move the goalposts by saying that one event follows another in a causal chain, and that should one event not occur, subsequent events would not occur, which exposes once again your conflation of creation and causation.

And "z is not some separable element from x"? What. On. Earth? Clearly you have never heard of these things called facts. Wittgenstein's opening statements of the Tractatus;

1: The world is all that is the case.
1.1: The world is the totality of facts, not of things.
1.13: The world divides into facts




So no refutation of what I argued. Thanks for waving the white flag.

As far as "disparaging" goes, as illustrated by your statement "z is not some separable element from y", you've never read a line of Wittgenstein. Literally not one line.




I'm neither familiar with you nor with your medical history, but this sounds like paranoia. Consult your doctor.

Great post. Well argued and entertaining.