why is everyone shocked that the rogues killed bart??? isnt that what just about every super villain been trying to do to every super hero forever???

what was mirror master trying to do to wally all those times???

the rest of the DCU villians seemed to be shocked and appauled by this

i dont get it

> why is everyone shocked that the rogues killed bart??? isnt that what just about every super villain been trying to do to every super hero forever???

Not the Rogues. They tend to wax philosophical about their defeats and didn't usually kill for any reason, simply because it upped the ante past where they were willing to go. After all, after they killed, what's to stop someone from using lethal force on them?

> what was mirror master trying to do to wally all those times???

Get him out of the way long enough to do a job. No more, no less.

> the rest of the DCU villians seemed to be shocked and appauled by this

Because they know what it means for them. After Sue Dibny's murder, we got the same collective feeling from the villain... because they knew that the heroes were seriously angry, and they were the ones that would suffer for it.


TJB

> why is everyone shocked that the rogues killed bart??? isnt that what just about every super villain been trying to do to every super hero forever???

Yeah.. but how often have they succeeded?

> the rest of the DCU villians seemed to be shocked and appauled by this

What TJ said. They know that they're in for a world of trouble, far beyond what heroes usually do to them.

---

"The Flash lives! I always wanted to say that." -- Wally West, Flash v.2 #50


Everything you ever wanted to know about DC's speedsters... but were afraid to ask.

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ok when was the last time you read a comic where the crime being commited by the villain wasnt superhero assualt??? when was the last bank robbery you saw in a comic? last jewelry store heist? bascially 99.9% of all the plots in comics is villain goes after hero. to what end ??? to give them a good smack? honestly when was thr last crime you saw in comic that didnt involve getting to hero in some way?

even getting past revenge by heroes arch enemies new villains try and kill them too. how many times have you read this line" if i take you out i cement my rep..." or something to that affect by a new villain? and of course villains dont win that parts of the genre the hero is a THE hero



and heroes die all the time (they just come back to life later) the rest of them dont go on the warpath every time heck when blue beetle died they hardly noticed when hawkman was seemingly killed right before the ttitle switched to hawkgirl the JSA didnt decend on ST roch en mass and turn the city upside down . the bataquad didnt move heaven and earth to take down black mask after spoiler was killed. and you would think her boyfriend robin would have done something.

the huge hero manhunt for the rogues?? where is it? how is part of it?
wondergirl, who swore revenge? robin? 2 of barts closest friends? has jay garrick been running all around tracking them down the killer of the guy he considered like a son to him and his wife? how about liberty belle/jesse quick? has she done anything to bring her former speed force team mates killers to justice? so far wally got inertia thats it. ? any hint of either the jla or jsa putting the rogue manhunt on their to do list? life goes on


what about when iris allen was killed? i dont relly remeber the story too well but i do remeber that the JLA was more concerned with barry stopping and dealing with his loss then forming a posse. i remeber a cool issue where barry took on a few JLAers when they tried to stop him from doing something .

yeah IC saw mobilization to get Dr light but just about every other storyline heroes are way too busy to really give a crap

> ok when was the last time you read a comic where the crime being commited by the villain wasnt superhero assualt??? when was the last bank robbery you saw in a comic? last jewelry store heist? bascially 99.9% of all the plots in comics is villain goes after hero. to what end ??? to give them a good smack? honestly when was thr last crime you saw in comic that didnt involve getting to hero in some way?

That's just it: The Rogues were those guys! We DID see them committing robberies and raising heck for money.

> and heroes die all the time (they just come back to life later) the rest of them dont go on the warpath every time heck when blue beetle died they hardly noticed when hawkman was seemingly killed right before the ttitle switched to hawkgirl

Well, Hawkman's friends and family DID know he wasn't dead and was getting revenge himself.

> the JSA didnt decend on ST roch en mass and turn the city upside down .

Because they were in on it. At least Dr. Fate was.

> the bataquad didnt move heaven and earth to take down black mask after spoiler was killed. and you would think her boyfriend robin would have done something.

That was just... well, stupid. I refuse to attempt to apply logic to War Games.

> the huge hero manhunt for the rogues?? where is it? how is part of it?
> wondergirl, who swore revenge? robin? 2 of barts closest friends? has jay garrick been running all around tracking them down the killer of the guy he considered like a son to him and his wife? how about liberty belle/jesse quick? has she done anything to bring her former speed force team mates killers to justice? so far wally got inertia thats it. ? any hint of either the jla or jsa putting the rogue manhunt on their to do list? life goes on

Because someone else got them first. (It's the point of an entire miniseries coming out later this year.) No point in SHOWING a manhunt that's going to fail because the villains involved are already light-years away after being taken into government custody. We've already seen the Suicide Squad trying to take down the villains involved in Countdown, so it's actually exactly as bad for them as I said it was. Worse... I never considered that their own allies would turn them in, and that's exactly what the Penguin did to Trickster and Piper.

> what about when iris allen was killed? i dont relly remeber the story too well but i do remeber that the JLA was more concerned with barry stopping and dealing with his loss then forming a posse. i remeber a cool issue where barry took on a few JLAers when they tried to stop him from doing something .

Barry had wiped out Professor Zoom by the very next issue, and he was killed AGAIN almost immediately upon revealing he'd survived being disintegrated in a time-bubble before Barry's eyes. (And even though that's true, the Green Lantern Corps made an attempt to take him down before Barry had a chance in that issue!) There wasn't much chance to do a manhunt there.

> yeah IC saw mobilization to get Dr light but just about every other storyline heroes are way too busy to really give a crap

Usually, the villain's taken care of before there's a need for a manhunt. War Games is the exception, and, well, even DC realizes that that was a mess.


TJB

> > ok when was the last time you read a comic where the crime being commited by the villain wasnt superhero assualt??? when was the last bank robbery you saw in a comic? last jewelry store heist? bascially 99.9% of all the plots in comics is villain goes after hero. to what end ??? to give them a good smack? honestly when was thr last crime you saw in comic that didnt involve getting to hero in some way?
>
> That's just it: The Rogues were those guys! We DID see them committing robberies and raising heck for money.
>
> > and heroes die all the time (they just come back to life later) the rest of them dont go on the warpath every time heck when blue beetle died they hardly noticed when hawkman was seemingly killed right before the ttitle switched to hawkgirl
>
> Well, Hawkman's friends and family DID know he wasn't dead and was getting revenge himself.

Nope. Ollie even chewed Carter out for making them go to a needless funeral.
>
> > the JSA didnt decend on ST roch en mass and turn the city upside down .
>
> Because they were in on it. At least Dr. Fate was.

More like ONLY Dr. Fate was in on it. The entire JSA, Hawkgirl included, thought that Hawkman had been killed.

But in all fairness, the villains in question had a fairly decent plan in place, and well prepared rabbit holes to evade capture. They just didn't count on Hawkman surviving and using his brain to hunt them down.

> > Well, Hawkman's friends and family DID know he wasn't dead and was getting revenge himself.
>
> Nope. Ollie even chewed Carter out for making them go to a needless funeral.

Yeah, but that's Ollie. Dr. Fate definitely knew... his participation was key. The whole arc took a very short time at any rate... just a few days. Besides, if my key relatives and allies included Green Arrow, I'd probably lie about anything I needed kept under wraps too.

> > Because they were in on it. At least Dr. Fate was.
>
> More like ONLY Dr. Fate was in on it. The entire JSA, Hawkgirl included, thought that Hawkman had been killed.

Well, Hawkgirl was definitely decieved. The JSA probably just didn't factor into Hawkman's plan at all... he wasn't a member at the time after all.

> But in all fairness, the villains in question had a fairly decent plan in place, and well prepared rabbit holes to evade capture. They just didn't count on Hawkman surviving and using his brain to hunt them down.

I'll agree there. Didn't Charlie Parker claim to be hunting the villains down himself anyway? (It was a lie, but they had no reason to doubt him.)


TJB

>
> > > Well, Hawkman's friends and family DID know he wasn't dead and was getting revenge himself.
> >
> > Nope. Ollie even chewed Carter out for making them go to a needless funeral.
>
> Yeah, but that's Ollie. Dr. Fate definitely knew... his participation was key. The whole arc took a very short time at any rate... just a few days. Besides, if my key relatives and allies included Green Arrow, I'd probably lie about anything I needed kept under wraps too.

Actually, IIRC it took place over a matter of weeks.
>
> > > Because they were in on it. At least Dr. Fate was.
> >
> > More like ONLY Dr. Fate was in on it. The entire JSA, Hawkgirl included, thought that Hawkman had been killed.
>
> Well, Hawkgirl was definitely decieved. The JSA probably just didn't factor into Hawkman's plan at all... he wasn't a member at the time after all.

They weren't in on it either. Wildcat gave Hector some lip about it, IIRC.
>
> > But in all fairness, the villains in question had a fairly decent plan in place, and well prepared rabbit holes to evade capture. They just didn't count on Hawkman surviving and using his brain to hunt them down.
>
> I'll agree there. Didn't Charlie Parker claim to be hunting the villains down himself anyway? (It was a lie, but they had no reason to doubt him.)

His 'plan' to the other heroes was to lure the villains back by impersonating Hawkman. I suspect that with the buildup to Crisis and with everything else that was happening, no one really had that much time to devote to the matter, so just deferred to Hawkgirl and Charlie.

With Bart, though, it's different. There's no crisis distracting the heroes, nothing dividing the heroes, all of whom are organized.

Though in fairness, the Rogues used to be organized too. IMO, they should have had a plan in place, in case they killed a Flash.

like others said only dr fate was in on hawkman faking his death but even if they were one group defintely wasnt in on it .... the vilains of the DCU so my point still stands the villains of the DCU saw hawkman' a big time JSAer with ties to the JLA, get taken out by a groupd of his enemies and all the super hero community did was have a funeral


bessides Identiy crisis( which i thought stunk by the way) there never has been a super hero crack down on villians when a hero dies

why should the rogues expect one now? why should the villians of the DCU get their panties in a bunch because the rogues killed bart? nothing is going to happen to them ( the villains i mean )

the bad guys have to be bad otherwise why do we need good guys

someone mention that the rogues used to be bankrobber type crooks sorry i cant remeber who post and i too lazy to go back and look lol

you are right and i did like them as such and i admit this might be bad direction to go in with the rogues

but my point is its been along time since comic writers used those kind of crimes in their stories the conflict we see in 99.9% of comcis nowadays is the hero or those very close to them being attacked directly the heroes are th targets sooner or later one of them has to get "hit" so if flashes villains hit him why should batmans villaisn care when they are trying the same thing except that batman is the target or supermans or GAs or GLs


maybe th writerw will come up with something that makes the "backlash" agaisnt he rogues make more sense but right now i am scratching my head

BTW if you didnt read that hawkman story we are talking about you should check it out... good stuff with some really impressive art by sean bennett

> like others said only dr fate was in on hawkman faking his death but even if they were one group defintely wasnt in on it .... the vilains of the DCU so my point still stands the villains of the DCU saw hawkman' a big time JSAer with ties to the JLA, get taken out by a groupd of his enemies and all the super hero community did was have a funeral

That's because of all the mini Crisis' that were popping up. Plus, remember that Hawkman was the one who voted to screw with Dr. Light's mind. The heroes were poorly coordinated at the time, divided by internal fighting. Just ask Blue Beetle!
>
>
> bessides Identiy crisis( which i thought stunk by the way) there never has been a super hero crack down on villians when a hero dies

We haven't seen enough heroes killed to really say that, really.
>
> why should the rogues expect one now? why should the villians of the DCU get their panties in a bunch because the rogues killed bart? nothing is going to happen to them ( the villains i mean )

I'm sure they thought that when Sue died too

> like others said only dr fate was in on hawkman faking his death but even if they were one group defintely wasnt in on it .... the vilains of the DCU so my point still stands the villains of the DCU saw hawkman' a big time JSAer with ties to the JLA, get taken out by a groupd of his enemies and all the super hero community did was have a funeral

And every villain involved slowly but surely mysteriously disappearing and never resurfacing. I suspect that message was received loud and clear... just like the fact that that's apparently going on now to the Flash's Rogues Gallery.

Remembered another example by the way: when it appeared that the Atom had been assassinated by parties unknown, Aquaman, Superman, and Batman immediately took to the field to find out who and why in Suicide Squad. There was apparently also quite the manhunt for the Joker when he broke out of Arkham after crippling Batgirl, because he'd crossed that line according to the dialog in Death in the Family (although his fleeing the country helped keep him safe long enough to kill Jason Todd.)


TJB