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Author
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



If you haven't seen the episode yet, then please watch it before reading this post. Thank you

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Wells/Thawne got visibly upset when he learned Barry hadn't saved his mother and then the two fought where Reverse Flash almost kills Barry (and would have if Eddie hadn't shot himself).

Here's my "theory" on why Wells/Thawne got mad and was all for Barry saving his Mother.

1. We know in the end of the episode, a singularity appears and begins consuming the city. This was a result of Eddie killing himself which resulted in Reverse Flash never existing, which in turn resulted in the forming of the singularity which would probably wipe out the timeline if Barry doesn't succeed in destroying it.

2. Wells/Thawne wanted Barry to go back and save his Mom, but remember Wells/Thawne HATES Barry. I think he had a double agenda here.

3. Let's say Barry DID save his mother by fighting Reverse Flash. Reverse Flash either kills Barry or either Barry manages to get away. Either way, the future Barry knew is gone forever because a singularity would appear over Central City and consume it (and probably the timeline) even as Wells/Thawne makes his get-away with his Time Sphere. Thus, Wells/Thawne gets his revenge.

4. If Barry had saved his Mom then he wouldn't have been able to return to the future because the singularity would have formed over Central City and consumed it and possibly that future. Thus, Barry would be stuck in the past just as Thawne was (or be dead).

I know my theory has holes in it and feel free to poke holes in it. *Laughs* When dealing with time travel, there's bound to be problems, no matter how well one looks at the angles.

And there you have it. That's my theory as to why Wells/Thawne wanted Barry to go save his Mom and then got furious when Barry chose not to do it to the point of nearly killing him.

One final note: Wells/Thawne states he is from 136 years in the future. That would place him being from the year 2151. Obviously the writers didn't do enough research. Eobard Thawne is from the 25th century not the 22nd century. Here's hoping Wells/Thawne was simply lying. And until I see solid proof he wasn't, I'm going to assume he was.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Iron Man UNit 007




The writers could have changed it so that RF comes from the 22nd century not the 25th.

Did RF have a hidden agenda? Sure he did, he is a sociopathic liar and a killer that hates Barry. Granted he has slightly mellowed thanks to having had to help Barry survive, become the Flash and train him, but for reasons yet to be revealed he hates Barry.

If Barry saved his mom there would be a time storm yes, but would the storm start 15 years in the past where/when he saved her or would it start in the present? By all rights the time changes begin where the change was started so the time storm should manifest over Barry's old home and then expand from there and then proceed into the 22nd century since that is where RF states he comes from.

However given that Barry was time displaced, he would conceivably be able to still get back to the future but it should be an alternate one as shown in Back to the Future part 2. Biff gives the almanac to his past self and then returns to what is still his future, and suffers a combination of heart attack and temporal erasure as HE was being erased and changed and then the ripple effect would eventually catch up to that future time and change it all. Marty and Doc go back and end up in the alternate 1985 because the ripple changes have already reached that point in time, thus they need to go back to 1955 and stop the whole thing.


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Sethno


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Member Since: Fri Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 3,386



Why did a singluarity not form when Thawne killed Barry's mom? He changed the past. Why did one not form when he killed Wells and his wife? When he killed others, like Iris's boss? Why did he not fear such an event would happen if he killed Barry as a child?



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Sethno


Location: in front of computer or tablet
Member Since: Fri Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 3,386



In BTTF 2, Biff didn't have a heart attack. He hurt himself getting out of the car. Remember his cane was broken?

There was a scene that was cut from the film that actually showed him disappearing, but behind the scenes it was said that it would only have confused the audience so it was left out. WHY did older Biff vanish rather than change?

Seems Lorraine of the alternate timeline shot and killed him at some point after 1985. I kid you not.



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Iron Man Unit 007




I say combo of heart attack and time change erasure because his agony started after the brass handle of his cane smashed him in the chest in the vicinity of his heart.

I'm sure it was a time erasure more then heart attack but the agony that they showed him in can be called both.

As to disappearing vs. changing, who knows how time travel and changing things really works? Would the old version simply disappear along with people's memories and be replaced by the revised version or do they transform on the spot along with everyone's memories?

is it a slow ripple effect that spreads out from the source of the time change or is it just the blink of an eye?

Many writers. many different views.

Babylon 5: thanks to the time rift they got to see glimpses of the dark alternate future that would occur if they did not succeed in taking B4 into the past and Sinclair becoming Valen. Note: for those that never watched babylon 5 you missed some good story telling. Valen hints were dropped through season 1 and 2 and it culminated in a nice season 3 two parter where past/present/future collided.

Star Trek TNG: Enterprise D finds a time rift, the Enterprise C emerges from it into the present and suddenly everything ripples and changes.

BTTF 2: Biff changes his past and returns to the same future as the temporal change/ripple effect had not reached that year. Marty and Doc end up in the alternate 1985 as the ripples have spread from 1955.

BTTF 3: Marty learns Doc dies in the old West. He has the photo of his headstone and after going back, they inadvertently change things when they save Clara from going into the ravine. They figured Doc would die on a certain day, then Buford nearly shoots him in the back stating it would take days for Doc to die.....Marty steps in and later the pic of the tombstone changed to show his alias instead of Doc. Future changed and the ripples were already in motion. Marty then changes it for good by beating the tar out of Buford and smashing what would have been the headstone. The polaroid alters again from the ripple affect. Marty remembers it as he was the cause/epicenter of the changes along with Doc. Also the ravine was renamed from the time change to Eastwood Ravine.

Doctor Who: a franchise that plays fast and loose with time travel to the extreme. We do know that fixed points cannot/must not be changed due to the paradox effect and that IF they are changed the Time Lords need to work to stabilize the paradox. This was shown in Doc 9 when Rose saved her father from the car. No Time Lords to stop the Paradox effect. All 13 Doctors later unite and revised the end of the Time War to save Gallifrey but due to timelines out of synch and the ripple effect, all of Doc 9 and 10's adevntures stay the same and only Doc 11 and above will know the truth about what was done to end the Time War. War Doc, 9 and 10 all still think Gallifrey was nuked.

Old episode of Challenge of the Superfriends, Legion of Doom goes to the future to conquer and rule as there are no Superfriends. Of course Riddler leaves clues behind and they go too far in the future, but they figure things out and stop the Legion and Superman shows them a book from the future that shows how the Legion was defeated by the Superfriends. Foreknowledge of what was to come, the Superfriends had to simply go and fulfill it.

Another old Challenge of the Superfriends episode, Apache Chief and I think Aquaman got stuck in prehistoric times. So they find the exact spot where the hall of justice will one day be built and bury their distress signal (which has infinite power it seems), and then in the present they get the signal, trace it to under the hall of justice and then carbon date the device and Superman goes to get them. The device suddenly appeared under the HoJ after they buried it in the past.

Beast Wars Season 2 ends with a massive time storm after Megatron mortally wounds optimus Prime. The cosmos was collapsing and would have rebuilt itself in a new time line had it not been stopped.

90' FLASH series, Barry gets blasted 10 years into the future and sees the dark future that was created because he quite being the FLASH and didn't stop Pike from taking over the town. he goes back and changes the critical point which will alter the future. No time storm, but to resolve the paradox of two Flashes they merge into one and basically Barry from the future overwrites his past self.

Current Flash series, barry time warps back a day and again to avoid two Barry's his past self is over written and erased. No time storm. Barry changes the day by shutting down the Weather Wizard and locking him up. But as Stein points out, that was 24 hours vs the 15 years Barry would need to travel to save his mother. Barry chooses the wiser course and not save her despite the agony he suffered. Wise choice as he likely realized that 15 years of time changes would be too much. However Eddie starts the ball rolling when he kills himself to erase RF. RF is erased and the time storm starts. Only Rip Hunter can stop this.


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De Allen





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De Allen





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


As we see in the Dr Who series, the basic problem is that alternate time lines will be created/erased. so would there really be a new future reset, or just a new timeline from that time forward, and there would still be history as they know it, so RF still lives then?


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De Allen




All GREAT points! Another thing here that escapes me is RF-Thawne said he was born 135 years from now -- hence why Eddie is his Great, Great, Great, Great Grandfather BUT how is it Barry/Flash is his nemesis in the future when he born 22-23 years prior to the present? So unless Barry somehow travels into the future at some point how would he and RF-Thawne have ever crossed paths?

I do think something comes of Eddie being sucked into the black hole that will be told. Barry getting Iris would be enough to make him an enemy. Notice how Wells/Thawne doesn't disclose WHY he and Barry are enemies.

One of the things here that seems an issue in other time-travel stories is you can't ever touch yourself (YES, HEARD IT! LOL) like when Flash saves his younger self, something about same matter not able to occupy same space.


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De Allen




All GREAT points! Another thing here that escapes me is RF-Thawne said he was born 135 years from now -- hence why Eddie is his Great, Great, Great, Great Grandfather BUT how is it Barry/Flash is his nemesis in the future when he born 22-23 years prior to the present? So unless Barry somehow travels into the future at some point how would he and RF-Thawne have ever crossed paths?

I do think something comes of Eddie being sucked into the black hole that will be told. Barry getting Iris would be enough to make him an enemy. Notice how Wells/Thawne doesn't disclose WHY he and Barry are enemies.

One of the things here that seems an issue in other time-travel stories is you can't ever touch yourself (YES, HEARD IT! LOL) like when Flash saves his younger self, something about same matter not able to occupy same space.


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Iron Man Unit 007





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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



Trying to think the logic through...

Killing Nora is something Reverse-Flash/Wells has already done, it is in his past. Sending/willing young Barry to save Nora would create a theoretical paradox if Barry did so and also insure(?) The Reverse-Flash didn't stop The Flash's original timeline, hence a Barry full of confidence and a Reverse-Flash who doesn't get stuck in the past because he neglected to consider the ramifications of blocking The Flash's origin. So possibly Reverse-Flash/Wells is hoping that sending Young Barry to do this is an additional guarantee of him getting home to the future. I certainly do not think he had any desire to trigger the wormhole as that not only endangers his own life but obliterates his future - Eddie shooting himself as he did was a dangerous enough possibility, never mind destroying the city and planet!

You have to wonder what would have happened to Barry if he did save his mom, would he cease to exist as none of it ever happens? What happened to Future-Flash when he saved Kid-Barry? We know from Barry's experience in stopping the Weather Wizard that only the time-traveller remembers the original reality he altered, just as Reverse-Flash is the only one to remmember the original timeline HE altered, so if Barry had saved his mom then...? He ceases to exist or travels back to the future, where he meets his other self who never had to travel back in time to save Mom as Mom never died?!!

No, I don't know what Reverse-Flash/Wells was thinking either. \:\-\!




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Iron Man Unit 007




If Barry did save Nora, there would have been a time storm/paradox as the time stream corrected itself from the change that RF had made by killing Nora.

What would have changed? Unknown. We know that Barry would still be the Flash and the metahumans would still arise, RF just made it happen sooner.

Future Barry telling present Barry to not save Nora was likely due to Future Barry having a better understanding of time travel and all of its ramifications then young Barry presently does.

Also RF wasn't fully disclosing information about the worm hole and the fact that Barry had 1 minute 52 seconds to save Nora or the wormhole would become uncontrollable. If it weren't for Professor Stein, I doubt RF would have mentioned the time limit.

Honestly I think RF understands more about time travel then he was letting on and likely understands the concept of alternate timelines. It is possible that he felt Barry would stay too long, the wormhole wipes out the time line but RF is safe back in his own time line.

Eddie shooting himself to stop RF was something that RF hadn't counted on. With Eddie being dead, RF is erased and the time storm/singularity begins.

Reference the end of Season 2 of Beast Wars and observe the time storm created when Megatron mortally wounded Optimus Prime.


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Iron Man Unit 007




If Barry did save Nora, there would have been a time storm/paradox as the time stream corrected itself from the change that RF had made by killing Nora.

What would have changed? Unknown. We know that Barry would still be the Flash and the metahumans would still arise, RF just made it happen sooner.

Future Barry telling present Barry to not save Nora was likely due to Future Barry having a better understanding of time travel and all of its ramifications then young Barry presently does.

Also RF wasn't fully disclosing information about the worm hole and the fact that Barry had 1 minute 52 seconds to save Nora or the wormhole would become uncontrollable. If it weren't for Professor Stein, I doubt RF would have mentioned the time limit.

Honestly I think RF understands more about time travel then he was letting on and likely understands the concept of alternate timelines. It is possible that he felt Barry would stay too long, the wormhole wipes out the time line but RF is safe back in his own time line.

Eddie shooting himself to stop RF was something that RF hadn't counted on. With Eddie being dead, RF is erased and the time storm/singularity begins.

Reference the end of Season 2 of Beast Wars and observe the time storm created when Megatron mortally wounded Optimus Prime.


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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Honestly I think RF understands more about time travel then he was letting on and likely understands the concept of alternate timelines. It is possible that he felt Barry would stay too long, the wormhole wipes out the time line but RF is safe back in his own time line.


That's a good suggestion!

The Reverse-Flash is always going to be something of an enigma, as he not only comes from the far future but an altered timeline. I did note with interest as Cisco acknowleges that they are in fact living in an alternate timeline themselves thanks to the meddling of Thawne/Wells, which added to the hints he himself drops about his many clashes with The Flash he had, plus *That* helmet that drops through the forming hole strongly suggests The Reverse-Flash and his original timeline is a near duplicate of the one seen in the original Flash comics, with Barry's marriage to Iris, the Crisis, and possible costume ring. I like that idea a lot.

 
I wonder... if original/future-Flash knew young-Flash was there behind the door watching in could this then explain why he leaves the scene completely after saving kid-Barry? Would he not know that having saved his young self instead of his mother (presumably he had to choose) that not only would time be altered because of that but Thawne would be immediately shut off from the Speedforce?
Or perhaps older-Flash knew he had to get out of there before time altered and he was caught in the paradox, possibly even powerless like Thawne?



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


wasn't Eddie sucked into that worm hole before he actually died though?

And with all of those alternate time lines, why would RF actually be erased from all of them, would that not mean the one that barry was currently in had him killed off?

And wouldn;t that mean Dr Wells indeed survived, and that his machine will not go off until 2020, so no Flash and scooby gang at least in this history until then?

Where is the Dr when you really need him!



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