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Author
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



Finally an episode that does not have some kind of tie in to Legends of Tomorrow. Now the show can finally start telling it’s own stories without being influence to a new show. The Flash hasn’t been as heavily influenced by the Legends tie in as much as the Arrow has, thankfully, but they have been there for two long months and I was getting tired of seeing them. So, it’s good to move on already.

There we have it, Wally West. I really like it that the casting directors stay true to the comic ethnic background, it stays true to the character but when they decide to change that character into something he’s not and on top of all that change his background too it’s uncalled for and it certainly is here. Some may call me prejudiced but it has nothing to do with that. Wally West is white in the comics and casting someone who is not white is not staying true to the original source material. So, it’s about staying true to the character as they they are in the comics. On top of all that, I grew up with Wally West as the Flash and as a result he’s my favorite Flash so you better believe I am dead set against this unnecessary change. For me, Wally West will always be the nephew of Iris West not her brother. It’s another unwanted change on a growing list of unnecessary changes to a characters origin. I realize some small adjustments are necessary to translate a character to the small screen but huge changes like this are uncalled for.

And in the beginning of the episode we see Harry running from Zoom and then failing to take down the villain with some kind of energy blaster rifle. Harry begs for the life of his daughter and Zoom says, “Merry Christmas.” But the strange part comes later as Harry starts acting strangely.

Captain Cold...again. At least this time he isn’t alone and we have the Weather Wizard and the Trickster. I really like Mark Hamill’s version of the character, it’s almost like having the Joker in this show. I really don’t get why some fans think Mark is a terrible actor when he proves them wrong every time he shows up on screen.

And now Joe knows about Wally. We all knew he’d find out eventually. Here is hoping Wally only shows up for a few episodes and won’t be featured much or gain superspeed. Even if he gains superspeed, let’s hope he doesn’t stick around or become “Kid Flash”. He’s a bit too old for that anyway. Wally, go move to Keystone City.

Patty Spivott! You grew as a character in this episode! That is so rare! Apparently, Patty blames herself for her father’s death and that’s why she became a Cop so she could “legally” kill Jesse Martin. It’s a selfish need of revenge, but it works. And now we know more about Patty and why she wanted to join Joe’s metahuman task force. Speaking of which, I really don’t get how it can be a taskforce with only two people. Am I the only one who has noticed this?

And now we know why Harry was acting in a strange way most of the episode. It’s because Zoom has given Harry an ultimatum. Either help Zoom make the Flash faster so Zoom can steal his speed or Harry’s daughter dies. Of course Harry agrees. It’s a tough situation, an impossible situation and a very hard decision to make.

The episode had some very nice emotional scenes, none more so than with Joe who found out he had a son and then Patty dealing with the death of her father, finally putting that behind her. But the most surprising scene of all was Barry talking to Harry (who couldn’t hear Barry) in another room as if Harry was Dr. Wells and finally forgiving him (Dr. Wells) for what he has done. It’s a great moment for Barry and all the emotional scenes were very well done as always.

All in all, it wasn’t a great episode but it wasn’t a bad one either. I don’t know, something was missing in this episode and it just didn’t feel like the writers were at there best here.

3 out of 5 stars.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS

1. I've heard that Patty Spivott is what Felicity Smoak should have been. No, Patty Spivott is what Iris West should have been. Don't get me wrong, I like Iris, but Patty is so much more of a better fit for Barry.

BLOOPERS/MISTAKES:

1. After the Flash beats both the Trickster and Martin, Patty arrives on the scene with a strange hi-tech gun thing. She points it at Barry and fires, trapping one of Barry’s legs in some kind of metal thing that wraps around his thigh even as cables dig into the pavement, effectively trapping the Flash. So, a man who is faster than a speeding bullet cannot manage to dodge this?! On top of that, why should this thing even trap Barry when he is fully capable of vibrating so fast he can phase through it?! COME ON! Very sloppy writing here.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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Iron Man Unit 007





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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Not a really strong show for me. as the trio of evil never lived up to their billing!

capt Cold is now an anti hero, while the trickster had some good lines, but in the end, just meh, and weather wizard with his power set should be MUCH harder to defeat!

Zoom is stealing the Speedforce from other Flashes, so maybe he is really wally west or barry from that other earth, who wells made super human?

Think iris really is the right gal for Barry long term, and just felt that they had to make wally Black for PC sake...

Wonder if wally well become a Flash also now?

And wouldn't it be something if Zoom actually turns out to be our Dr wells somehow surving the Wormhole, or else that the e2 Wells has to become RF in order to help stop Zoom?




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little kon-el




I thought it would be obvious that Wally was black when Wally is related to Iris (now we know that Wally is her brother in the show). I think some diversity is needed, if only because there's diversity out there and these shows should reflect that diversity. Barry is from the Silver Age. There's very little diversity in the silver age. So why not recast someone of color in a heroic role?

- l.k.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 42.0 on Windows 10
Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    I thought it would be obvious that Wally was black when Wally is related to Iris (now we know that Wally is her brother in the show). I think some diversity is needed, if only because there's diversity out there and these shows should reflect that diversity. Barry is from the Silver Age. There's very little diversity in the silver age. So why not recast someone of color in a heroic role?


I am against Iris being black for the same reasons I'm against any black actor playing a white character and vice versa. If the original source material (the comics, in this case) has a white character like Iris West (or Wally West) being played by a black actor, an Asian actor, a Mexican actor, etc, it violates the original source material. That's why I was against Tom Hardy as Bane, he was of the wrong ethnicity, that's why I'm against Ezra Miller as Barry Allen because Barry isn't Asian, that's why I was against Johnny Depp playing an Indian because he's not an Indian despite being adopted into an Indian tribe, the list goes on.

On the other side of the coin, could you imagine the Black Panther being played by a white man as well as the entire country of Wakanda? I can't and I certainly would be against that. Black Panther is black, not white. Why? Because T'Challa is black according to the original source material. And that is something that should NOT be broken on a whim like this.

I'm fine with diversity, it can be a good thing if used right but a bad thing if it's abused. If these shows want black characters, bring them up I say. However, there is NO need to change the ethnic background of some characters who have been white for decades or longer simply because diversity is needed. Want diversity? Then create a new character, it's not that hard. Changing a character's race is taking the easy way out because the background, Powers (if any) family members, character history, etc, are already there and no one has to spend time working on those things. But with a newly created character, someone has to sit down and actually work on everything about that character. For someone who loves creating characters, it can be a very fun exercise and worth while (I have experience in this, so I know what I'm talking about). But for someone who doesn't want to create an original character won't like the process and for them it'll be hard work.

There are plenty of black characters in the comics that are sitting un-used at DC comics when it comes to Live Action. John Henry Irons AKA Steel, Black Lightning, Static Shock, John Stewart, just to name a few and yet not one of them has made a live-action appearance aside from Steel. These showrunners wanting black characters can dig from those characters not being used and yet they never do. THey would rather change the ethnic background of some of our favorite characters instead and I, for one, will ALWAYS be against that because it's completely unnecessary. Period.

So, when the showrunners have a black man (or woman) playing a character who is white in the comics, it violates the original source material. And that is something that should never be done because it's not making me think the character has leaped out of the pages of a comic.

Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln being played by an Asian man? Or perhaps JFK being played by a black man or maybe George Washington being played by a Mexican? I can't. And yet we love staying true to historic people with movies based on them and yet we treat comic shows and movies so loosely? Why? Why can't these showrunners show the same dedication to making their movies and shows just as important as casting actors who at least TRY to resemble historical people? Some rules need to be clearly established here.

If I offended anyone with this post or any post I've done concerning this issue, I apologize.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
little kon-el




I mean, Black Panther, I can understand as an African King. Luke Cage is a Black Man because a huge part of his identity is that he's a take-off of Blacksploitation cinema in the 1970s.

But what about Wally West is "white?"

I always liked Tanaka Rei/Flash from Marv Wolfman's Legends of the DCU issue because it was such a weird fit that worked for a character. Being someone who was Asian, I could identify with Tanaka Rei in a way that I know I didn't with Barry Allen.

Being Asian wasn't his defining characteristic. It was just a part of the character that made him seem more relatable because I knew Japanese-Americans like Tanaka Rei.

I don't mind blind ethicity casting when ethnicity is irrelevant to the character. It would make any sense to make Abraham Lincoln Black or Black Panther white because race and ethnicity define both characters in specific ways. I don't know why, but while I know Wally is a white guy, his "whiteness" is not definitive to his character.

To each his or her own, but I believe you lock yourself out of some great stuff if you only see it as a "white" or "ethnic other" part. In these long-running TV Shows, you end up losing out on great actors if you adhere strictly to the original intent of the comic book.

- l.k.




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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    I mean, Black Panther, I can understand as an African King. Luke Cage is a Black Man because a huge part of his identity is that he's a take-off of Blacksploitation cinema in the 1970s.



    Quote:
    But what about Wally West is "white?"


Two things:

1. The original source material.

2. Does there actually need to be an in universe reason for Wally West or any character to be white? Answer: No. I could ask the same thing about Black Lightning or John Henry Irons: What about them makes them black? It's also asking the wrong question.


    Quote:
    I always liked Tanaka Rei/Flash from Marv Wolfman's Legends of the DCU issue because it was such a weird fit that worked for a character. Being someone who was Asian, I could identify with Tanaka Rei in a way that I know I didn't with Barry Allen.


That a pre-crisis character?


    Quote:
    Being Asian wasn't his defining characteristic. It was just a part of the character that made him seem more relatable because I knew Japanese-Americans like Tanaka Rei.


And if he hadn't been Asian, you wouldn't have been able to relate to him as well, would you?


    Quote:
    I don't mind blind ethicity casting when ethnicity is irrelevant to the character. It would make any sense to make Abraham Lincoln Black or Black Panther white because race and ethnicity define both characters in specific ways. I don't know why, but while I know Wally is a white guy, his "whiteness" is not definitive to his character.


How does race define who Abraham Lincoln and Black Panther are and not Wally West? History says Abe was white and that can be counted as "the original source material" when it comes to historic people. Black Panther wouldn't work as a white man for a multitude of reasons, but when it boils right down to it, it's, again, the "original source material" that is part of what defines them. Can you imagine Superman being black? Supergirl? How about Batman? I can't. It IS part of what defines them.


    Quote:
    To each his or her own, but I believe you lock yourself out of some great stuff if you only see it as a "white" or "ethnic other" part. In these long-running TV Shows, you end up losing out on great actors if you adhere strictly to the original intent of the comic book.


Your only partially right. Even though I don't agree with Iris West being black, I'm still enjoying her character even if I disagree with the casting choice. And even though I hated the casting choice for Pete Ross in Smallville, I stilled liked the character.

Wally West on the other hand is my favorite Flash and thus he is different from the others because I grew up with him. I made the journey with him as he grew out of being an immature jerk to a level headed hero. Nearly 30 years of history of character growth and I grew to really appreciate not only what DC did with him but what Wally West eventually became. To me, Wally will always be white and if I'm locking myself out from enjoying an actor who is playing him, I can live with that because in my mind, changing a white character into a black one when he's been white for several decades is wrong. It violates the original source material.





It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
Posted with Mozilla 11.0 on Windows 7
JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I just feel that this is the PC running amok, as it is always OK to have peter replaced as Spidey, have wally replaced, have thor rerplaced, Steve replaced as cap etc, but just imagine having as you state BP become white, or Luje Cage becoming white or latino!

just have more characters if you want to have more minorities, but so not replace the characters that have been well established in their roles for that!


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little kon-el




Two things:

1. The original source material.

2. Does there actually need to be an in universe reason for Wally West or any character to be white? Answer: No. I could ask the same thing about Black Lightning or John Henry Irons: What about them makes them black? It's also asking the wrong question.

- The out of universe reason is that Wally is white comes from John Broome wanting to create a unique sidekick that was similar, but also different than the other sidekicks around him. All the other sidekicks were foster children that the hero "adopts", so he creates Wally who has his own family and who comes to visit Barry one and a while. Wally also comes from a time when it was very hard to put black people in comics. Ferro Lad was black, but Shooter wasn't allowed to put that revelation in the comic. Jericho was supposed to be Black in his 1960s introduction, but that was scrapped because they were afraid to run out of comics distributers in the south.

- The out of universe reason why Black Lightning was Black deals with the original premise: a white militant who, under distress, became a black superhero was supposed to be Black Lightning before the editor left and Tony Isabella (Luke Cage creator) had to figure out how to "fix" this character so that it wasn't super-racist.

- The out of universe reason why Steel is black is because Louise Simonson and Jon Bogodolove patterned him after the American myth of John Henry because they wanted to create a character that was the heart and soul of Superman (Whereas the Eradicator was meant to be Superman's relationship to Krypton, Superboy was meant to be Superman's "youth", and the Cyborg Superman was meant to be Superman's "patriotism."). Louise Simonson was also aware of role models for children and wanted to write a story where the character could be a role model for kids who was also African American. That's also why Quincy Jones pushed to have a Steel movie made with Shaquille O'Neal: because he wanted to broaden this role model to masses because he wanted a positive Role Model for African American kids who seemed fatalistic in the 1990s (which is also why Meteor Man was made).

The in-continuity reason is there, but it mostly has to do with geography. Nebraska has a lot of white people in it. Even in today's census, Nebraska is only 4.9% black. If Wally was from Blue Valley, more than likely he'd be white.

- And if he hadn't been Asian, you wouldn't have been able to relate to him as well, would you?

I relate to him differently because he is Asian. He only appears in that Crisis 5.5 issue and it always struck me as such an interesting character because he was Japanese-American and seemed the most human in those very few pages. It basically took the Wally West Archetype, gave him the Barry Allen job, and gave him a family to look after. That's what made him click for me, even today. I could see myself in that character.

It isn't that I can't relate to Wally. Wally's Relationship to Barry in that early 1990s Flash run really hit home with me because I looked up to my brother in the same way. But I could relate to Tanaka Rei differently because he was like me. When you're a minority who isn't represented in mass media, you have to do that translation in your head. "Okay, this guy is white, but I can relate to him in other ways." Minorities are always having to do that.

- How does race define who Abraham Lincoln and Black Panther are and not Wally West? History says Abe was white and that can be counted as "the original source material" when it comes to historic people. Black Panther wouldn't work as a white man for a multitude of reasons, but when it boils right down to it, it's, again, the "original source material" that is part of what defines them. Can you imagine Superman being black? Supergirl? How about Batman? I can't. It IS part of what defines them.

Race defines Abraham Lincoln because he isn't a character. He was an actual person that lived and died. He freed the slaves. It wouldn't make any sense to do a movie with Abraham Lincoln as a black man unless you wanted to make a point about race in America.

Black Panther was a brave stance as one of the first modern-day depictions of a black man that wasn't a characature in comics. His "Panther Rage" storyline is still foundational in comics lore as the first type of graphic novel storytelling. And he has been depicted as bi-racial before as Kasper Cole with many pointing out that "he's a white guy acting black" in the comic. Also note that that's the reason why Black Panther was always in a full body costume when he was created, so he wouldn't piss of southern distributors by having a black man on the front cover (also the tactic of why Ferro Lad was always covered up).

But what also defines these character is the interpretation of the source material. In that Same Crisis story, Superman and Supergirl were a black married couple. Batman was latino in this interpretation too. In Grant Morrison's Superman, he had a great Black Superman. And in a Dwayne McDuffie Elseworlds, he had a Black Batman proposal that got revamped into something else. But that was there.

DC Interpretation is what happens every-time there is a reboot or a change in the status quo. Kyle Rayner, Blue Beetle, the Question and Hawkgirl being Latino. The Atom and Batgirl being Asian American. Mr. Terrific being African American. While these weren't complete reboots of the characters, these were updates in the same way that the Silver Age created updates for the Flash and Green Lantern.

At this point in our culture, changing ethnic identity of characters is akin to doing a costume change. But it can have such a wider impact in the way people of those communities see themselves in superhero comics and movies. Jaimie Reyes/Blue Beetle really did bring in latino comics readers through his use in cartoons and other media. Kamela Khan/Ms Marvel also brought in Muslim readers. And it also gives us a great example of a minority character who is a heroic figure at a time when Latinos and Musliks aren't seen as heroic figures in mainstream media.

- Wally West on the other hand is my favorite Flash and thus he is different from the others because I grew up with him. I made the journey with him as he grew out of being an immature jerk to a level headed hero. Nearly 30 years of history of character growth and I grew to really appreciate not only what DC did with him but what Wally West eventually became. To me, Wally will always be white and if I'm locking myself out from enjoying an actor who is playing him, I can live with that because in my mind, changing a white character into a black one when he's been white for several decades is wrong. It violates the original source material.

While I disagree, I completely understand with your viewpoint when it comes to Wally West. While there is nothing in his character, in my opinion, which couldn't make him a minority character, you've related to him for 30 years now. I have too, but in a way that is now called "Code Switching." I've always seen the character as someone like me, but not quite like me. In my head, I switch between cultures in order to identify with him. It isn't hard. It's basically what I've always had to do with most of my superhero comics.

What I'm curious, and I've never really asked a white person this, but how do you relate to minority characters? You mention Black Panther alot. What do you like about him? How do you relate to him or Steel or Kyle Rayner or other minority heroes?

- l.k.



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little kon-el




There was a half-jewish, half wakandan Black Panther: Kasper Cole. That was a great story and much was made, in story, about why a white guy was dressed up like a black kitty cat.

Luke Cage's daughter, Danielle Cage, is not only a legacy of Luke Cage (and not 100% black)...but she eventually becomes Captain America in the future.




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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    There's very little diversity in the silver age. So why not recast someone of color in a heroic role?

    - l.k.


Why recast a popular existing character at all is my objection.
If you can't be bothered to create an all-new character concept who is an ethnic representation then the second-best way to go ideally is to replace, not recast. The new Ms Marvel is an example of replacing, so too is Michael Holt as Mr Terrific, Marvel replaced Nick Fury snr with jnr, Shiera Saunders replaced Saera Hall, Ryan Choi replaced Ray Palmer, ‎Kimiyo Hoshi became the new Doctor Light, Val-Zod replaced Kal-el on Earth-2....
None of these examples were "recasting", the were new characters replacing old and usually defunct or tired originals. And all proved extremely successful and popular.

When you recast rather than replace you are asking for the wrath of the readership as there is going to be an obvious enormous difference and controversy between 'recasting' a semi-obscure character like Pete Ross and recasting the frontline likes of Wally West, who was the much loved Flash people grew up with for over two decades. That doesn't even take into account the fact that in the current set-up Wally (Black or White) is utterly redundant and uncalled for given the 'back-to-basics' approach today and that Bart Allen is also out there active... it reeks of tokenism and an attempt to court controversy and the resultant headlines.

But as history has shown it is far better to replace than recast. \(coffee\)




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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:


      Quote:
      I thought it would be obvious that Wally was black when Wally is related to Iris (now we know that Wally is her brother in the show). I think some diversity is needed, if only because there's diversity out there and these shows should reflect that diversity. Barry is from the Silver Age. There's very little diversity in the silver age. So why not recast someone of color in a heroic role?



    Quote:
    I am against Iris being black for the same reasons I'm against any black actor playing a white character and vice versa. If the original source material (the comics, in this case) has a white character like Iris West (or Wally West) being played by a black actor, an Asian actor, a Mexican actor, etc, it violates the original source material. That's why I was against Tom Hardy as Bane, he was of the wrong ethnicity, that's why I'm against Ezra Miller as Barry Allen because Barry isn't Asian, that's why I was against Johnny Depp playing an Indian because he's not an Indian despite being adopted into an Indian tribe, the list goes on.



    Quote:
    On the other side of the coin, could you imagine the Black Panther being played by a white man as well as the entire country of Wakanda? I can't and I certainly would be against that. Black Panther is black, not white. Why? Because T'Challa is black according to the original source material. And that is something that should NOT be broken on a whim like this.



    Quote:
    I'm fine with diversity, it can be a good thing if used right but a bad thing if it's abused. If these shows want black characters, bring them up I say. However, there is NO need to change the ethnic background of some characters who have been white for decades or longer simply because diversity is needed. Want diversity? Then create a new character, it's not that hard. Changing a character's race is taking the easy way out because the background, Powers (if any) family members, character history, etc, are already there and no one has to spend time working on those things. But with a newly created character, someone has to sit down and actually work on everything about that character. For someone who loves creating characters, it can be a very fun exercise and worth while (I have experience in this, so I know what I'm talking about). But for someone who doesn't want to create an original character won't like the process and for them it'll be hard work.



    Quote:
    There are plenty of black characters in the comics that are sitting un-used at DC comics when it comes to Live Action. John Henry Irons AKA Steel, Black Lightning, Static Shock, John Stewart, just to name a few and yet not one of them has made a live-action appearance aside from Steel. These showrunners wanting black characters can dig from those characters not being used and yet they never do. THey would rather change the ethnic background of some of our favorite characters instead and I, for one, will ALWAYS be against that because it's completely unnecessary. Period.



    Quote:
    So, when the showrunners have a black man (or woman) playing a character who is white in the comics, it violates the original source material. And that is something that should never be done because it's not making me think the character has leaped out of the pages of a comic.



    Quote:
    Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln being played by an Asian man? Or perhaps JFK being played by a black man or maybe George Washington being played by a Mexican? I can't. And yet we love staying true to historic people with movies based on them and yet we treat comic shows and movies so loosely? Why? Why can't these showrunners show the same dedication to making their movies and shows just as important as casting actors who at least TRY to resemble historical people? Some rules need to be clearly established here.



    Quote:
    If I offended anyone with this post or any post I've done concerning this issue, I apologize.


Why is the man always trying to keep the ginger man down?


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Reverend Meteor





I think the same people who have a problem with Wally being black had a problem with Iris being black.

Personally I would have preferred a ginger Wally...but there was no logical way to do it with the West family being black. Once Iris was black Wally was destined to be black as well.


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Reverend Meteor




That he's a ginger. That's his defining characteristic.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 35.0 on Windows 7
Reverend Meteor





    Quote:


      Quote:
      I mean, Black Panther, I can understand as an African King. Luke Cage is a Black Man because a huge part of his identity is that he's a take-off of Blacksploitation cinema in the 1970s.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        But what about Wally West is "white?"



    Quote:
    Two things:



    Quote:
    1. The original source material.



    Quote:
    2. Does there actually need to be an in universe reason for Wally West or any character to be white? Answer: No. I could ask the same thing about Black Lightning or John Henry Irons: What about them makes them black? It's also asking the wrong question.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I always liked Tanaka Rei/Flash from Marv Wolfman's Legends of the DCU issue because it was such a weird fit that worked for a character. Being someone who was Asian, I could identify with Tanaka Rei in a way that I know I didn't with Barry Allen.



    Quote:
    That a pre-crisis character?



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Being Asian wasn't his defining characteristic. It was just a part of the character that made him seem more relatable because I knew Japanese-Americans like Tanaka Rei.



    Quote:
    And if he hadn't been Asian, you wouldn't have been able to relate to him as well, would you?



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I don't mind blind ethicity casting when ethnicity is irrelevant to the character. It would make any sense to make Abraham Lincoln Black or Black Panther white because race and ethnicity define both characters in specific ways. I don't know why, but while I know Wally is a white guy, his "whiteness" is not definitive to his character.



    Quote:
    How does race define who Abraham Lincoln and Black Panther are and not Wally West? History says Abe was white and that can be counted as "the original source material" when it comes to historic people. Black Panther wouldn't work as a white man for a multitude of reasons, but when it boils right down to it, it's, again, the "original source material" that is part of what defines them. Can you imagine Superman being black? Supergirl? How about Batman? I can't. It IS part of what defines them.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      To each his or her own, but I believe you lock yourself out of some great stuff if you only see it as a "white" or "ethnic other" part. In these long-running TV Shows, you end up losing out on great actors if you adhere strictly to the original intent of the comic book.



    Quote:
    Your only partially right. Even though I don't agree with Iris West being black, I'm still enjoying her character even if I disagree with the casting choice. And even though I hated the casting choice for Pete Ross in Smallville, I stilled liked the character.


Once Iris was made black...Wally had to be black as well.

I would have preferred a ginger Wally as well...but this shouldn't really come as a surprise to any of us. We've known Joe and Iris were black since the first episode \:\)



    Quote:
    Wally West on the other hand is my favorite Flash and thus he is different from the others because I grew up with him. I made the journey with him as he grew out of being an immature jerk to a level headed hero. Nearly 30 years of history of character growth and I grew to really appreciate not only what DC did with him but what Wally West eventually became. To me, Wally will always be white and if I'm locking myself out from enjoying an actor who is playing him, I can live with that because in my mind, changing a white character into a black one when he's been white for several decades is wrong. It violates the original source material.





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Paste Pot Pete 

Wolfman Pete!

Member Since: Fri Jul 07, 2000
Posts: 11,450


I agree, I don't know what the uproar is about, no reason he has to be white other than white folk feeling like one of their guys has been taken from them.

I mean I got mad that Nick Fury became black when Samuel L. took over the role, but when it comes right down to it does it really matter? Not really.

And you have a good point about inherent character attributes. I mean it wouldn't make much sense for Magneto to be Black since he is supposed to be a European Jew who survived the Holocaust. But unless the character has an origin like that, race really doesn't matter as much.

PPP





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Knight


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:


      Quote:
      There's very little diversity in the silver age. So why not recast someone of color in a heroic role?



      Quote:
      - l.k.



    Quote:
    Why recast a popular existing character at all is my objection.
    If you can't be bothered to create an all-new character concept who is an ethnic representation then the second-best way to go ideally is to replace, not recast. The new Ms Marvel is an example of replacing, so too is Michael Holt as Mr Terrific, Marvel replaced Nick Fury snr with jnr, Shiera Saunders replaced Saera Hall, Ryan Choi replaced Ray Palmer, ‎Kimiyo Hoshi became the new Doctor Light, Val-Zod replaced Kal-el on Earth-2....
    None of these examples were "recasting", the were new characters replacing old and usually defunct or tired originals. And all proved extremely successful and popular.



    Quote:
    When you recast rather than replace you are asking for the wrath of the readership as there is going to be an obvious enormous difference and controversy between 'recasting' a semi-obscure character like Pete Ross and recasting the frontline likes of Wally West, who was the much loved Flash people grew up with for over two decades. That doesn't even take into account the fact that in the current set-up Wally (Black or White) is utterly redundant and uncalled for given the 'back-to-basics' approach today and that Bart Allen is also out there active... it reeks of tokenism and an attempt to court controversy and the resultant headlines.



    Quote:
    But as history has shown it is far better to replace than recast. \(coffee\)








It's interesting that a hero/villain performs one amazing feat, or use a power they haven't used for 20+ years, and that automatically propels them to a high status despite scans and evidence to the contrary. I don't know what is worse, selective feat picking that has only been done once or twice 20, or more, years ago or ignoring evidence from scans or the lack thereof. We need to stop putting our favorite heroes/villains on pedestals and start putting them where they really belong. But it's evident that people never will because they would rather accuse others of cherry picking feats, when they don't, and being 'morally superior' when they aren't. I guess being honest and as fair as possible only opens one up to being the target of childish accusations and fault finding by those who insist on acting petty and childish. What happened to a good debate between two civil, mature, adults?
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