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Author
Sethno


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Member Since: Fri Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 3,386



At the start of the series, we learned that when Thawne killed Nora, for some reason his powers faded. To get himself back to his own time, he took over Wells' life and caused the reactor accident five years early. This made Barry the Flash five years early, and increased Thawne's chances of getting back to his own time.

This time around, it's still the Thawne that killed Nora. Not a later or earlier version of him. (Barry just took him unconscious out of the house before he could kill her, and locked him up; it was this Thawne that Barry then released.)

Thawne kills Nora, somehow the earlier Barry doesn't stop him, Thawne brings present Barry back to the present, and then takes off.

Why are Thawne's powers still working? Shouldn't they have faded just like they did last time? Since they haven't faded, WHY haven't they faded?

And what about Wells? Did Thawne go back to that night and kill Wells or not? If his powers are fine (and it seems they are), then Thawne had no reason to kill Wells that night. So is Wells alive, or not?

If Wells is NOT alive... WHY isn't he? And if Thawne never took over his life, who played Wells over the time covered by the first season in this new version of the timeline?

Have the writers ROYALLY messed up?



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IRon Man Unit 007




RF is a walking temporal anomaly, it is clear that certain laws of time are not binding to him at all, particularly the fact that Eddie's death should have totally erased RF from past, present and future.

However from what we saw, things are restored to how Barry remembers them, except for the new Iris/Joe junk they threw in. However we shall see as the season progresses as to what else has changed. Then Barry may have to make a choice about whether to go back and revise things again or let things stand.

However since things are restored and Barry is the Flash once again, it stands to reason that RF still went back and took Wells place and triggered the explosion and storm that empowered Barry.

Being from the future, RF does have great knowledge of what is to come and he is facing a younger Barry that is still learning things rather then the Barry we saw at the end of Season 1 when young Barry warped back to save his mom. In fact, I bet older Barry warned young Barry to stay back due to older Barry having experienced the Flashpoint.


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Ancient One 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    Have the writers ROYALLY messed up?


Yep. Completely. Nothing makes any sense.

You can't go back and change your own timeline. It's impossible.

Best you can do is create a divergent timeline (As Barry explains he's done in Flashpoint). But you couldn't stay in that divergent reality. You'd have to return to your own, where things are unchanged.

For example, Barry goes back in time, saves his mother and creates a divergent reality. And then what? There's a young Barry already in existence there who has to grow up. So older Barry goes forward 20 years. But where's the Barry from the divergent timeline? What's happened to him? There should be two Barrys of the same age running around.

Time travel on that level is pointless. You can't change your own timeline, and can't stay in a divergent reality, unless it's one where no version of you exists.

But the Barry we've been following for the last three years is a divergent self already. It would be impossible for Reverse Flash to go back and kill Nora Allen in his own timeline. That would cause a paradox. The second Thawne turned up in the past an alternate timeline was created. And that's the one we've been following.






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LostTimelord

Not sure if spoilers or not but just in case

Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93





I walk in Eternity
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    Quote:

    At the start of the series, we learned that when Thawne killed Nora, for some reason his powers faded. To get himself back to his own time, he took over Wells' life and caused the reactor accident five years early. This made Barry the Flash five years early, and increased Thawne's chances of getting back to his own time.



    Quote:
    This time around, it's still the Thawne that killed Nora. Not a later or earlier version of him. (Barry just took him unconscious out of the house before he could kill her, and locked him up; it was this Thawne that Barry then released.)



    Quote:
    Thawne kills Nora, somehow the earlier Barry doesn't stop him, Thawne brings present Barry back to the present, and then takes off.



    Quote:
    Why are Thawne's powers still working? Shouldn't they have faded just like they did last time? Since they haven't faded, WHY haven't they faded?



    Quote:
    And what about Wells? Did Thawne go back to that night and kill Wells or not? If his powers are fine (and it seems they are), then Thawne had no reason to kill Wells that night. So is Wells alive, or not?



    Quote:
    If Wells is NOT alive... WHY isn't he? And if Thawne never took over his life, who played Wells over the time covered by the first season in this new version of the timeline?



    Quote:
    Have the writers ROYALLY messed up?


Yeah let's all admit it. The writers messed up in season 2. Things didn't make sense then (Eddie's death/Reverse Flash) and now things make even less sense.

I think they've made too many mistakes for us to no prize it and construct a logical explanation to explain it all away. You have to sift through like 10 timelines to even construct a theory to explain anything.

So if the difference between this current timeline and the one Reverse Flash averted when he killed Barry's mom is that Eobard never posed as Harrison...then presumably we're going to get to see a tangent of Earth-1 Harrison that never died (but not really I guess). So are we going to see what Harrison would have been like in Future Barry's timeline...I guess they would be almost the same...except Harrison shouldn't meet Barry for another 2 years (and I'm not sure they met then).

So we've got

1. Future Barry's Harrison (never been seen) that presumably meets Barry in 2019
2. Eobard posing as Harrison in 2014
3. Earth-2 Harrison
4. Presumably a Harrison that meets Barry in 2016-2017.

And of course we have the Eobard who never posed as Harry.

Ugh this show.






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    Quote:

      Quote:
      Have the writers ROYALLY messed up?



    Quote:
    Yep. Completely. Nothing makes any sense.



    Quote:
    You can't go back and change your own timeline. It's impossible.



    Quote:
    Best you can do is create a divergent timeline (As Barry explains he's done in Flashpoint). But you couldn't stay in that divergent reality. You'd have to return to your own, where things are unchanged.



    Quote:
    For example, Barry goes back in time, saves his mother and creates a divergent reality. And then what? There's a young Barry already in existence there who has to grow up. So older Barry goes forward 20 years. But where's the Barry from the divergent timeline? What's happened to him? There should be two Barrys of the same age running around.



    Quote:
    Time travel on that level is pointless. You can't change your own timeline, and can't stay in a divergent reality, unless it's one where no version of you exists.


Every show/movie/comic does their own separate rules for time travel (it's a fictional concept after all). This show has it's own rules specific to this narrative. Unfortunately even then they're inconsistently applied.



    Quote:
    But the Barry we've been following for the last three years is a divergent self already. It would be impossible for Reverse Flash to go back and kill Nora Allen in his own timeline. That would cause a paradox. The second Thawne turned up in the past an alternate timeline was created. And that's the one we've been following.


Unless I missed it there's nothing about the Flash TV shows mythology that prevents one from revisiting a moment you've already experienced. Other tv shows may have that rule...but again different shows different rules.

I agree with the second part. Thawne created a new reality when he went back in time and killed Nora the first time around.


Timelines:

1. The original where Future Barry is from (2024?)
2. The one Thawne created by killing Nora...most of season 1. Cisco died.
3. The one where Flash changed the timeline in season 1. Cisco lived.
4. Earth 2
5. Earth 3 (Jay's world)
6. Supergirl Earth (Earth S?)
7. Flashpoint 1.0 the world Barry was in for the most part of the season 3 premiere
8. Flashpoint 2.0...the one at the end of the episode
9. The one where Barry got everyone killed because he couldn't keep his mouth shut about Oliver's kid last year.
10. The one where Pied Piper was good.

While I agree this show sucks at sticking to their own rules...I don't think it's fair to assume the time travel rules for another show apply to this show. Like I kind of take issue with your comment "You can't change your own timeline, and can't stay in a divergent reality, unless it's one where no version of you exists." I agree with the first part but there is to my knowledge nothing that says you can't be in the same reality as your counterpart. Barry met Barry 2. Barry's been in the same room as his past selves.


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Ancient One 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,885




    Quote:
    Unless I missed it there's nothing about the Flash TV shows mythology that prevents one from revisiting a moment you've already experienced. Other tv shows may have that rule...but again different shows different rules.


No rules at all with this show.

Here's the way it would work.

Q: Was I in your living room this afternoon talking to you?

A: No. You have no memory of it. I was never there.

Now there's nothing to stop me building a time machine at some point in the future and travelling back to your living room this afternoon. Except that you have no memory of it happening. I was never there. If I had been, you would have a memory of it NOW. But you don't.

So either one of two things is happening. Either a) I never travel back to this afternoon, or b) I travel back, but in doing so create a divergent reality. Those are the only two options.


    Quote:
    While I agree this show sucks at sticking to their own rules...I don't think it's fair to assume the time travel rules for another show apply to this show. Like I kind of take issue with your comment "You can't change your own timeline, and can't stay in a divergent reality, unless it's one where no version of you exists." I agree with the first part but there is to my knowledge nothing that says you can't be in the same reality as your counterpart. Barry met Barry 2. Barry's been in the same room as his past selves.


It couldn't be done on ANY show about time travel.

You could be in the same reality as your counterpart easily, but you couldn't have the kind of life Barry wants: IE to be part of the Allen family without anyone suspecting anything was out of the ordinary. For a start, there'd be two of you. Your parents might find that a little strange, to say the least. That's why I said 'on that level'. You couldn't create a reality you'd fit into unnoticed unless you were prepared to get rid of your doppleganger.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:


      Quote:
      Unless I missed it there's nothing about the Flash TV shows mythology that prevents one from revisiting a moment you've already experienced. Other tv shows may have that rule...but again different shows different rules.



    Quote:
    No rules at all with this show.



    Quote:
    Here's the way it would work.



    Quote:
    Q: Was I in your living room this afternoon talking to you?



    Quote:
    A: No. You have no memory of it. I was never there.



    Quote:
    Now there's nothing to stop me building a time machine at some point in the future and travelling back to your living room this afternoon. Except that you have no memory of it happening. I was never there. If I had been, you would have a memory of it NOW. But you don't.



    Quote:
    So either one of two things is happening. Either a) I never travel back to this afternoon, or b) I travel back, but in doing so create a divergent reality. Those are the only two options.


And I'm going under the assumption B is true as it works best with what the show has shown us so far. Gideon for example still had records of 2024 Barry's timeline despite Reverse Flash killing Nora. That timeline presumably wasn't erased...it's out there somewhere in the multiverse.

With that being the case you can interact with your past/future/alternate selves all you want.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      While I agree this show sucks at sticking to their own rules...I don't think it's fair to assume the time travel rules for another show apply to this show. Like I kind of take issue with your comment "You can't change your own timeline, and can't stay in a divergent reality, unless it's one where no version of you exists." I agree with the first part but there is to my knowledge nothing that says you can't be in the same reality as your counterpart. Barry met Barry 2. Barry's been in the same room as his past selves.



    Quote:
    It couldn't be done on ANY show about time travel.



    Quote:
    You could be in the same reality as your counterpart easily, but you couldn't have the kind of life Barry wants: IE to be part of the Allen family without anyone suspecting anything was out of the ordinary. For a start, there'd be two of you. Your parents might find that a little strange, to say the least. That's why I said 'on that level'. You couldn't create a reality you'd fit into unnoticed unless you were prepared to get rid of your doppleganger.


Ah now I think I get what you meant which I didn't in the first post...there should have been another Barry in the flashpoint timeline? I can concede that point. This show did that annoying thing shows like Fringe did (which is where I think this show steals half their plots from truth be told)...the timeline just readjusts around the time traveler instead of the time traveler having a double that actually went through the experiences of that timeline. Yeah I hate that too. My point was that there is no rules in place that would keep Barry from meeting a double as he's done it before.

Rusty Venture had the right idea when he tried to do it on Venture Bros...bash your doubles brains in and steal his life.


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Iron Man Unit 007

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Ancient One 

Manager

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 7,885




    Quote:
    And I'm going under the assumption B is true as it works best with what the show has shown us so far. Gideon for example still had records of 2024 Barry's timeline despite Reverse Flash killing Nora. That timeline presumably wasn't erased...it's out there somewhere in the multiverse.


Right. That 'original' timeline rolled on unchanged.


    Quote:
    With that being the case you can interact with your past/future/alternate selves all you want.


Indeed you can, but never the same you in your own timeline. You're always popping up in a divergent reality, or a divergent you is popping up in yours.



    Quote:
    Ah now I think I get what you meant which I didn't in the first post...there should have been another Barry in the flashpoint timeline? I can concede that point. This show did that annoying thing shows like Fringe did (which is where I think this show steals half their plots from truth be told)...the timeline just readjusts around the time traveler instead of the time traveler having a double that actually went through the experiences of that timeline. Yeah I hate that too. My point was that there is no rules in place that would keep Barry from meeting a double as he's done it before.


Right. What happened to that other Barry?


    Quote:
    Rusty Venture had the right idea when he tried to do it on Venture Bros...bash your doubles brains in and steal his life.


It's quick...it's clean...and it would be the ONLY way for Barry to get that life he wants. Although, his original self does have that life.


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Ancient One 

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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Flash needs to have a Dr call!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


By reversing her life and having RF actually kill her off, would that not just have everything fold back to what already happened before Flashpoint then?

Or would it not just creat alternative time lines that Flash would return back to his own, and have that other one continue on as is?

And is RF now a walking anomoly, as he manages to survive his own timeline death, and now is recreating a new future history for himself?


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LostTimelord


Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93


Alternative timelines seems to be what they are going for here. It would explain why the earlier/different versions vanished when they arrived. They were shunted into another reality.

It doesn't explain however why RF would have even changed history in the first place because that just means that the original timeline is still playing out.
If that newspaper is right and that involved the COIE then Barry is dead and perhaps RF didn't do this just to mess with Flash's life but actually did it to get to interact with his old enemy again. In a perverse sense he might have missed him but didn't expect to lose his powers.

I think we will find that Dr. Alchemy is the reason RF is still kicking.





I walk in Eternity
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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Who or what is Dr Alchemy?


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Jason Ireland






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Reverend Meteor


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    Quote:
    Who or what is Dr Alchemy?


http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Albert_Desmond_(New_Earth)





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Sethno


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Member Since: Fri Mar 09, 2012
Posts: 3,386



I don't know where you found that Colonel cover, and for the moment I don't care, but I find it terrifying that someone even thought to do this. I'm also fascinated.



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