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Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man




On both Earth-1 and Earth-2, nearly all metahumans got their powers from a particle accelerator explosion at STAR Labs. (There were a few exceptions like Deathbolt, Trajectory, Vandal Savage and the Hawks, and possibly the Earth-3 Flash, but for the most part, metahumans didn't exist before the dark matter wave hit Central City.)

Yet it's doubtful that there was any particle accelerator explosion in the Flashpoint universe. Wally doesn't mention it when describing how he became the Flash, and no one at STAR Labs mentions it. The fact that STAR Labs is still a successful company with dozens of employees would also suggest that the explosion never happened (although that was also the case on Earth-2, strangely enough). So where did all the metahumans come from? They already gave an explanation for Wally, but how did the Rival and Magenta and all the other people Alchemy is re-powering originally get their powers?

Also, shouldn't the timeline where Eobard Thawne was stopped from killing Nora have been nearly identical to the original timeline, where the particle accelerator exploded in 2020? Yet it seems like the Flashpoint timeline is very different from the original timeline: In the original timeline, Harrison Wells still owned STAR Labs, rather than Cisco, and Barry still ended up becoming the Flash, rather than Wally. So what exactly happened here?


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Daveym 

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Location: Lancashire
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An interesting point you make here, and connected to something that has had me puzzled about the series' origins...

I suggest that the key point to bear in mind with this question is that the Reverse-Flash/Harrison Wells we meet in series 1 had altered the timeline by unintentionally killing Barry's mother, he was later revealed to be targeting the young Barry himself rather than his parents. To his surrise this events repercussions immediately broke his connection to the Speedforce, for some reason likely connected to Barry's now interrupted history, and he therefore had to play a long game and wait until Barry grew older. That he has to arrange an 'accident' to restore Barry's powers, and therefore Thawne/Wlls' own link to the speedforce, suggested to me that he had to do it this way as whatever Barry's original origin was was made void by Thawne's murderous assault on Barry and his parents. We learn sometime later in the first deason that Barry and his friends have deduced they are living in an altered timeline, but the point has never been explored, as the Barry that Thawne originally travelled back in time to kill theoretically ceased to exist the moment Thawne killed his mother and altered the timeline.

What the original timeline was like we can only wonder. It would have almost certainly had a much more capable and confident Flash, there must have been villains and threats that came with it, and of course that Flash dissapears in a great crisis some ten or so years from now...




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LostTimelord


Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93


Barry's death in the COIE is what causes the Speed Force to come into existence. In a way the Speed Force IS Barry. When RF killed Nora he stopped Barry from becoming the Flash and this caused the Speed Force to cease to exist.

We can assume RF kept his memories like Barry did at Flashpoint or perhaps Gideon kept him safe. Probably using Gideon RF learns that Barry isn't around in the COIE and gives Barry back his powers.

This brings the SpeedForce back into action but as RF was linked to the orginal version of the Speed Force he has difficulty reconnecting to it.

I know there are bugs in my hypothesis but that's how I see it playing out.










I walk in Eternity
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LostTimelord


Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93


There are any number of ways they got their powers in Flashpoint. Perhaps Alchemy gave them those powers in that universe as he really seems to hate the Flash.

RF might have found and saved Alchemy from the collapsed Flashpoint timeline and this could explain how Alchemy knows and/or gives people their powers.

Why didn't the universe snap back to the original timeline? I think it was a result of the butterfly effect. By arriving in the past Barry could have caused some minor changes which escalated as time went on.


There is a slight hint as to why Cisco owns Star Labs instead of Harrison Wells. Cisco mentions that if you deal with a Speedster you get the hand through the chest.

I think Harrison got killed by a speedster and Cisco either bought it or inherited it.




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Daveym 

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That would be fine enough but the question posed was the role of the Particle accelerator, which I can only assume did not exist in the original timeline or Thawne would not have had to manufacture the 'accident' as a substitute for whatever event originally gave Barry his power.
If you accept that the original timeline had Barry gain his power by some random event (hit by lightning, doused in chemicals) and that his foes were the the traditional Rogues, and others like them not created in the new timeline by the Accelerator explosion, then the original Barry Allen/Flash would be something in line with the comicbooks - self confident, self-taught, and a very capable superhero whom the Reverse-Flash fought many times and was unable to overcome. One of the points about Thawne's interference in the timeline has been that his actions damaged Barry's self-confidence and ability to move forward with his life. This is something that has been noted independently by the Harrison Wells of Earth-2. So the influence of Thawne on his old foes revised timeline has been as profound as his impact on his old foe himself. In one sense Thawne did finally score a significant victory then, by killing Nora Allen and altering The Flash's life forever...




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Grey Gargoyle




For example :
http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Time_remnant

If there are "time remnants" to prevent the grandfather paradox, it means that Eddie Thawne's death changed nothing. Then, why was Eobard Thawne "erased" at the ending of the first season ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox

Also, since the grandfather paradox never occurs, it means that past is as flexible as the future and, thus, there is nothing "wrong" about changing the past ... (┬░_┬░)


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Also, shouldn't the timeline where Eobard Thawne was stopped from killing Nora have been nearly identical to the original timeline, where the particle accelerator exploded in 2020? Yet it seems like the Flashpoint timeline is very different from the original timeline: In the original timeline, Harrison Wells still owned STAR Labs, rather than Cisco, and Barry still ended up becoming the Flash, rather than Wally. So what exactly happened here?


Well...you can't go back in time and change your own history. You just end up creating a divergent reality. But you can't change the history of a divergent reality either. So, you have the 'original' timeline where nothing at all happens on that night, the divergent reality where Reverse-Flash kills Nora, and three or four other divergent timelines - each one created on the three or four times Barry's travelled back to that night. All of them may be different.

And remember, we don't know what happens in the original timeline. Perhaps Flashpoint is VERY close to it. Wally gets powers, Cisco is rich...The one point of divergence being that Barry never gets his speed.


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:

    That would be fine enough but the question posed was the role of the Particle accelerator, which I can only assume did not exist in the original timeline or Thawne would not have had to manufacture the 'accident' as a substitute for whatever event originally gave Barry his power.
    If you accept that the original timeline had Barry gain his power by some random event (hit by lightning, doused in chemicals) and that his foes were the the traditional Rogues, and others like them not created in the new timeline by the Accelerator explosion, then the original Barry Allen/Flash would be something in line with the comicbooks - self confident, self-taught, and a very capable superhero whom the Reverse-Flash fought many times and was unable to overcome. One of the points about Thawne's interference in the timeline has been that his actions damaged Barry's self-confidence and ability to move forward with his life. This is something that has been noted independently by the Harrison Wells of Earth-2. So the influence of Thawne on his old foes revised timeline has been as profound as his impact on his old foe himself. In one sense Thawne did finally score a significant victory then, by killing Nora Allen and altering The Flash's life forever...



It's clear from Season One's 'Tricksters' episode that Wells and his wife do create the accelerator in the original timeline, just 20 years later. Thawne explains to the real Wells just before he kills him that it's his '...way home'. The implication is that he's using it to create the Flash in exactly the same way, just ten years early. The big problem for me is: Even if he could replicate the dark energy release, how does he ensure that Barry gets hit by lightning at EXACTLY the right moment? Especially given that Thawne has no speed at that point.

As for the original timeline no longer existing, I don't see why that should happen. Nor why the pre-Flashpoint timeline would get 'overwritten' by the Flashpoint timeline. They're nothing more than divergent realities. But Earth-2 is a divergent reality too. So is Supergirl's timeline. And Jay Garrick's Earth-3. None of those realities cease to exist just because another reality comes into being.


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LostTimelord


Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93


Barry is part of the Arrowverse and its stated in Legends of Tomorrow that time will try to correct itself. Rip Hunter says that in trying to change history they will be fighting time itself.

When RF recreates the explosion time used that moment to correct itself and gave Barry back his speed. Not to mention the Speed Force appears to be sentient and would want to exist completely.

As the 10th Doctor says, its all timey whimey




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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    Barry is part of the Arrowverse and its stated in Legends of Tomorrow that time will try to correct itself. Rip Hunter says that in trying to change history they will be fighting time itself.


Then why does he even bother trying?

I know. This ridiculous notion that time thinks for itself.

'Time wants this to happen'.

'Time will put it right'.

It's the equivalent of saying: I'm going to kick this ladder away from you. But you may stay suspended there because gravity may not want you to fall at this moment.

In reality, gravity doesn't give a monkeys. And neither does spacetime. Why should it? It doesn't think. it doesn't care. It's just a process.


    Quote:
    When RF recreates the explosion time used that moment to correct itself and gave Barry back his speed. Not to mention the Speed Force appears to be sentient and would want to exist completely.


So this Speed Force is so powerful it can take down whole universes on a whim? If so, why not ALL universes where it doesn't exist. Are we to assume that in an infinite multiverse there's no version of reality where Barry either doesn't exist or doesn't get his powers?

In an infinite multiverse, everything will happen an infinite amount of times, including universes where the speed force doesn't exist. So why does the speed force get a hissy fit about this one particular universe? It just doesn't make sense. It's simply poor writing.

I've never been comfortable with the whole idea of the speed force. It just seems to me a catch-all explanation for inconsistencies in storytelling, and one which because it's used inconsistently, kind of defeats it's own purpose. For example...if this is a force that can think, why would it allow a being like Zoom or Reverse-Flash access to itself? Or, how does Barry retain his powers in Supergirl's universe, where Barry doesn't have powers (if he even exists there) and the speed force isn't in operation?

    Quote:
    As the 10th Doctor says, its all timey whimey


I'm with the War Doctor in my dislike of that phrase, I'm afraid.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


All that has been happening in various Flashpoints should not have been affecting the prime timeline, as that would still be intact, and still out there somewhere...


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


So the RF was in the end going back to rewite his own history and Barry as a means to finally being able to defeat him for good?

But wouldn't the Flashpoint evets just be creating alternate timelines for both of them, but keeping intact the original prime one, just as Star trek had their rebooted time line and Universe, but also still had the original one still intact?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Would be a perfect setting though to have a TV version of the COIE come into play now...


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Beowulf




There is a difference between alternate timelines and parallel universes, at least as far as DC-Comics is concerned (and I ignore the effects and the diverse reboots of the Crisis):

The parallel universes existed from the beginning of the Big Bang as separate entities with their own complete space-time continuum, even if they had identical or mostly identical histories up to a point. There is no real divergent point where the timelines split ala Everetts Quantum Multiverse involved.

The universes of Earth 1, 2, 3 always existed on their own.


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Beowulf




The speed-force is extra-dimensional, hence he can tap into from any parallel-dimension. As for the rest of your questions: Haven't got a clue.
A sentient speed-force is pretty silly.


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Daveym 

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I confess to sharing Ancient One's ambivalence to the Speedforce concept, while often a writers godsend it is indeed a very lazy catch-all plot device when all is said and done, one that is used to generate story potential but also to wave aside consequences and impose entirely arbitrary limitations/possibilities on The Flash.
Still, it sits in the same place as The Source or the Quantum Field do in the DC Universe and could be said to be an expression of The Source itself. I don't think this has ever been said to be the case, but if you look to Rebirth #1 and last seasons television interlude as Barry struggles to regain his speed while lost within the Force it does seem highly likely that the Force and The Source are indeed two sides of the same coin, spanning dimensions and realities and existing outside of them. What Barry and others see while within it is likely to be as much their own projections being played out as it is any sort of reality or actual independent sentience...




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Ancient One 

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    Quote:

    What Barry and others see while within it is likely to be as much their own projections being played out as it is any sort of reality or actual independent sentience...


Yes. I like that. That makes far more sense.


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Ancient One 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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    Quote:
    There is a difference between alternate timelines and parallel universes, at least as far as DC-Comics is concerned (and I ignore the effects and the diverse reboots of the Crisis):



    Quote:
    The parallel universes existed from the beginning of the Big Bang as separate entities with their own complete space-time continuum, even if they had identical or mostly identical histories up to a point. There is no real divergent point where the timelines split ala Everetts Quantum Multiverse involved.



    Quote:
    The universes of Earth 1, 2, 3 always existed on their own.


I don't think I'd agree with that. As in evolution, their similarities argue common ancestry.


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:

    A sentient speed-force is pretty silly.


That's the word I was looking for! \:\)


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Ancient One 

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    Quote:
    All that has been happening in various Flashpoints should not have been affecting the prime timeline, as that would still be intact, and still out there somewhere...


Agreed. No reason at all it should just end.


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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689




    Quote:
    On both Earth-1 and Earth-2, nearly all metahumans got their powers from a particle accelerator explosion at STAR Labs. (There were a few exceptions like Deathbolt, Trajectory, Vandal Savage and the Hawks, and possibly the Earth-3 Flash, but for the most part, metahumans didn't exist before the dark matter wave hit Central City.)



    Quote:
    Yet it's doubtful that there was any particle accelerator explosion in the Flashpoint universe. Wally doesn't mention it when describing how he became the Flash, and no one at STAR Labs mentions it. The fact that STAR Labs is still a successful company with dozens of employees would also suggest that the explosion never happened (although that was also the case on Earth-2, strangely enough). So where did all the metahumans come from? They already gave an explanation for Wally, but how did the Rival and Magenta and all the other people Alchemy is re-powering originally get their powers?



    Quote:
    Also, shouldn't the timeline where Eobard Thawne was stopped from killing Nora have been nearly identical to the original timeline, where the particle accelerator exploded in 2020? Yet it seems like the Flashpoint timeline is very different from the original timeline: In the original timeline, Harrison Wells still owned STAR Labs, rather than Cisco, and Barry still ended up becoming the Flash, rather than Wally. So what exactly happened here?


I think FP Wally got his powers in a non particle accelerator accident.





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LostTimelord


Location: Jacksonville, NC
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 93


I'll admit time acts strange in the Arrowverse. I don't think its time thinking in the conventional way we do. Imagine that time is a form of surface which events get mapped onto it. The more major the event, the bigger imprint it leaves on time.

When you change events the minor ones are easy to erase. The bigger events are harder to erase and time will try to restore those events. Hence why even though minor events change when Flash changes history he still encounters the people he did before and history takes on the same basic form it did with the major players still in play even while their stories change slightly.

Why this universe? I tend to view this Barry as the actual Prime universe Barry. He is the original and all other Barrys are just reflections of him. This is the universe where the Speed Force comes into existence and then stretches through time and space so it paradoxically then has been around since the beginning and will be there at the end of the universe.

The Speed Force or perhaps some cosmic entity within it doesn't seem to think in terms of good and evil like we do. The Time Wraiths are said to be the enforcers of the Speed Force. If you misuse the Speed Force too much then one or More Wraiths come to kill/drag you into the Force itself.
I know the Wraiths aren't used like they should be if they are really enforcers but that is supposed to be their intent.

Time Whimey...I like that term. You don't and that's ok. If we all thought alike it would be a very boring world.

















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Beowulf




Now that you mention it, that was pretty much the big reveal of the the pretty much forgotten Genesis-mini back in the day, ┬┤stating that most of DC's metabeings were linked directly or indirectly to the source, were in fact demi-gods and that the Quantum field and Speed-force were lesser extension of the Source or also linked to it.

It gave pretty much a unifying explanation for DC's superbeings just as the Celestials genetic tampering are the explanation for Marvel's superbeings.


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Beowulf





I don't know how much they stick to the sourcematerial, but in the comics, the DC-Multiverse came into being, when an Immortal named Krona looked into the past before the Big Bang, watching the very act of creation, which was a big no-no. Usually, the people doing that would die. Krona being immortal, caused a backlash which splintered the singular space-time continuum into an infinite multitude of realities.
So in a way, you are right. A form of timetravel(but not physical, he was just watching from his era) was involved and there was point of divergence, but that was the Big Bang itself.

Same with later iterations of the DC-Multiverse, even the pitiful 52-verse. Whatever splintered or duplicated the realities had nothing to do with a Class 3 Multiverse.

The only Exception is Hypertime, but that was pretty much ignored later on, maybe because it renders all timetravel stories or stories ala COIE as non-sensical.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


The Source is one aspect of the presence in the DCU, as it communicates to the new gods, and maybe speedforce is another aspect of it, just to speedsters...


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Daveym 

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



I doubt much thought has been put into what the Speedforce actually is, but looking to Rebirth #1 it does seem clear that it exists simultaneously across the multiverse and, if Wally West's return if evidence, goes beyond reality as well. Therefore the parallels to The Source are clear to see.




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