Marvel Universe >> View Thread

Author
Unstable Molecule




So we have in this day and age:
- A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
- A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
- A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
- A traitorous and dead Captain America;
- A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
- A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;

... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?

Here's my short list (in no particular order):

1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.

2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.

3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.

4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.

5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).

Anyone else?



Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
footman




>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
eugenioabraham: the ex exposed guy




> So we have in this day and age:
> - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
> - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
> - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
> - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
> - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
> - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
>
> ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
>
> Here's my short list (in no particular order):
>
> 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
>
> 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
>
> 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
>
> 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
>
> 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
>
> Anyone else?
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
USAgentfan




> So we have in this day and age:
> - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;


Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.


> - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;


The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?

Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.


> - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);

What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?

Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.


> - A traitorous and dead Captain America;

'Traitorous'?

I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?

Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.

> - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;

As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?

The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.

I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.

> - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;

Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.

You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?

Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.

You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.


>
> ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
>
> Here's my short list (in no particular order):
>
> 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
>
> 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
>
> 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
>
> 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
>
> 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
>

I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Ohotmu the all-knowing




> So we have in this day and age:
> - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
> - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
> - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
> - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
> - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
> - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
>
> ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
>
> Here's my short list (in no particular order):
>
> 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
>
> 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
>
> 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
>
> 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
>
> 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
>
> Anyone else?
>


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Runaway22




> > So we have in this day and age:
> > - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
>
>
> Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.
>
>
> > - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
>
>
> The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?
>
> Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.
>
>
> > - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
>
> What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?
>
> Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.
>
>
> > - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
>
> 'Traitorous'?
>
> I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?
>
> Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.
>
> > - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
>
> As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?
>
> The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.
>
> I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.
>
> > - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
>
> Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.
>
> You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?
>
> Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.
>
> You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.
>
>
> >
> > ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
> >
> > Here's my short list (in no particular order):
> >
> > 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
> >
> > 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
> >
> > 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
> >
> > 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
> >
> > 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
> >
>
> I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.

Though I agree with most of your responces (Peter was just trying to save Aunt May and Captian America is just standing up for all the other heroes), I'll have to disagree on Cyclops. I mean he sends teenagers out to kill their former mentors. I can understand Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, and maybe even Wolfabane, but it dosn't seem right to send the Young X-men out to do a job X-Force could do after they were finished with the Purifiers, or at least send someone older and more in tune with killing. Personally, after Messiah CompleX, I think he is acting a little scrully.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
USAgentfan





>
> Though I agree with most of your responces (Peter was just trying to save Aunt May and Captian America is just standing up for all the other heroes), I'll have to disagree on Cyclops. I mean he sends teenagers out to kill their former mentors. I can understand Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, and maybe even Wolfabane, but it dosn't seem right to send the Young X-men out to do a job X-Force could do after they were finished with the Purifiers, or at least send someone older and more in tune with killing. Personally, after Messiah CompleX, I think he is acting a little scrully.

Dont get me wrong, I also think that the Cyclops in YXM is either a Skrull or one of Donald Pierces cyborgs or something similar.

The Cyclops in X-Force however I think is real and he behaves in a very similar way - which I think is justified under the current circumstances as the alternative is simply waiting for your enemies to make you extinct.

As for sending teenagers out to fight and die and kill - thats been going on forever. The original X-Men were all teenagers and then there were teams like the New Mutants, New X-Men and the original X-Force who were also all teens and all involved in life or death battles.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Runaway22




>
> >
> > Though I agree with most of your responces (Peter was just trying to save Aunt May and Captian America is just standing up for all the other heroes), I'll have to disagree on Cyclops. I mean he sends teenagers out to kill their former mentors. I can understand Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, and maybe even Wolfabane, but it dosn't seem right to send the Young X-men out to do a job X-Force could do after they were finished with the Purifiers, or at least send someone older and more in tune with killing. Personally, after Messiah CompleX, I think he is acting a little scrully.
>
> Dont get me wrong, I also think that the Cyclops in YXM is either a Skrull or one of Donald Pierces cyborgs or something similar.
>
> The Cyclops in X-Force however I think is real and he behaves in a very similar way - which I think is justified under the current circumstances as the alternative is simply waiting for your enemies to make you extinct.
>
> As for sending teenagers out to fight and die and kill - thats been going on forever. The original X-Men were all teenagers and then there were teams like the New Mutants, New X-Men and the original X-Force who were also all teens and all involved in life or death battles.

Well, all those teams (at least I think) were never ordered to kill anyone. Also wern't most the New Mutants/New Brotherhood instructors at the institute? I personally think it is a little wrong for oneteacher to ask you to kill another teacher. It's not that they're in peril or that they could kill someone, it's that Cyclops asks them to kill their former mentors. I hope Cyclops is not Cyclops, or this whole thing is like a training exercise or something.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
Unstable Molecule




> > So we have in this day and age:
> > - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
>
>
> Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.
>
It went something like this: Tony Stark influenced Peter to reveal his identity to the world in order to advance the Superhuman Registration Act (see my comments on Iron Man). As a direct result, the Kingpin took out a contract on Peter, MJ and Aunt May, succeeding in the shooting of Aunt May. While she lingered near death, Peter sought help from all friends, allies and even enemies, and all told him essentially the same thing: it's Aunt May's time, and Peter should use the remaining time to be with her and make peace with her death. Enter Mephisto. He claimed he could cure May, and his price would be that Peter and MJ would never have married and would not be in love. Incredibly, Peter and MJ said yes (first MJ got the secret identity back). Still, the fact remains that they threw away their vows before God by directly making a deal with the devil. Apparently the end justifies the means for Spider-man too.
>
> > - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
>
>
> The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?
>
> Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.
>
So... we're in agreement, it seems.
>
> > - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
>
> What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?
>
> Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.
>
More agreement. But it's still morally grey.
>
> > - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
>
> 'Traitorous'?
>
> I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?
>
> Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.

Due to the SHRA, Cap was directly breaking the law and encouraging others to do so, hence the word traitorous. I'm no Cap expert, but I think his past rebellions against the government haven't been illegal. I happen to believe Cap was taking the right stand, and I admired him as a hero for it. But the government arrested him and took him into custody, where he was killed by a hail of bullets. Now that he's dead, the original hero is gone from the Marvel U.
>
> > - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
>
> As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?
>
> The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.
>
> I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.
>
Understandable? Yes. Heroic? No. Villainous, in fact.

> > - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
>
> Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.
>
Realistic does not equal heroic. I can't look up to Scott for these actions.

> You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?
>
That's... quite a leap from the statement I made above, which is based on the facts as we know them now (in X-Force and New X-Men). My point is that Scott's actions aren't heroic.

> Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.
>
> You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.
>
I'd say you missed the point (not to mention the intent) of my post. This is a post about heroes; it's point is that I admire the characters below. Its intent is to praise those characters. The characters and situations I mentioned above are there for context. It's fair to say I don't like the direction the above characters are taking. Is it interesting? Yes. Would I want my kids to look up to and idolize those characters? No.

As for whining, I think you'll agree that my comments below are a very long way from whining.
>
> >
> > ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
> >
> > Here's my short list (in no particular order):
> >
> > 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
> >
> > 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
> >
> > 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
> >
> > 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
> >
> > 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
> >
>
> I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.

As with anything in comics, it's writer-dependent. I think a lot of characterization was off in Civil War and One More Day (among other stories), because those were the tales that Marvel wanted to tell. Now that those stories are over, and writers have more liberty to tell their own stories, the characters will find their heroism again, no doubt. But for me personally, I still think of Mephisto when I see Spider-man. I think of the former happiness of Peter and MJ when Peter pursues other women. I can't look at Aunt May. And when I see Reed, I still see Goliath. Maybe someday I'll be able to look at these examples and blame the skrulls, or some other plot devise - time will tell.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
USAgentfan




> > > So we have in this day and age:
> > > - A Spider-man who makes deals with the devil to undo his marriage vows;
> >
> >
> > Havent read the story but on face value I would agree that this sounds out of character, although I'm sure that youre not exactly giving us the full objective facts and that there must be some kind of reasonable justification even if it is a badly written one.
> >
> It went something like this: Tony Stark influenced Peter to reveal his identity to the world in order to advance the Superhuman Registration Act (see my comments on Iron Man). As a direct result, the Kingpin took out a contract on Peter, MJ and Aunt May, succeeding in the shooting of Aunt May. While she lingered near death, Peter sought help from all friends, allies and even enemies, and all told him essentially the same thing: it's Aunt May's time, and Peter should use the remaining time to be with her and make peace with her death. Enter Mephisto. He claimed he could cure May, and his price would be that Peter and MJ would never have married and would not be in love. Incredibly, Peter and MJ said yes (first MJ got the secret identity back). Still, the fact remains that they threw away their vows before God by directly making a deal with the devil. Apparently the end justifies the means for Spider-man too.
> >


That being the case I can understand why Peter and MJ would sacrifice their own happyness to save another human life and the life of someone they both love and I dont understand why you cant see this as both understandible and heroic. Peter has always been about self sacrifice and this is just another example of him giving up a great deal to help someone else.


> > > - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
> >
> >
> > The same Richards whose own genius has always been his fatal flaw and cant consider the prospect that his inventions wont work?
> >
> > Clor is just another example of Richards ignoring Sue (the conscience of the team) and having the misguided belief that he can solve all the worlds ills from his lab - nothing really new there.
> >
> So... we're in agreement, it seems.
> >


No were not.

You appear to be talking like Reeds behaviour is a new phenomonom and the point I'm trying to make is that he has behaved in morally dubious, ignorant and arrogant ways like this on several occasions in the past and in many different ways ranging from his early sexist behaviour towards his wife and making the decision that saw Ben become the Thing to invading and trying to take over Latveria despite the risk of starting an international war.

'Mistakes' like Clor are things that have long since been a part of Reed's make-up. For sure his past mistakes havent directly resulted in the death of someone as far as we know but the tone of your post is very much to suggest that these are no longer the heroes that we know and love because of the 'faults' that youve highlighted - which simply isnt true.


> > > - A morally compromised Iron Man (who's a walking "the ends justify the means" argument, which formerly was the domain of Doctor Doom and Magneto);
> >
> > What, like the Ironman who decided the ends justified the means when he started the armour war, or when he faked his death, or when he wiped the worlds minds to hide his own identity, that Ironman?
> >
> > Hardly a big leap from there to the SHRA which is well in character I feel.
> >
> More agreement. But it's still morally grey.
> >


Again, I'm not agreeing with you - I'm snatching the rose tinted glasses from your face and confronting you with the base fact that Tony Stark has done many things during what you would probably consider much better times for the character that are as least as dubious as his behaviour during Civil War and the SHRA.


> > > - A traitorous and dead Captain America;
> >
> > 'Traitorous'?
> >
> > I suppose Cap wasnt a traitor the last time he ignored his countries call to duty or the time before that?
> >
> > Cap disagreeing with the way his government wants him to work isnt new, nor is a Cap who can only see the black and white of any argument and not the shades of grey.
>
> Due to the SHRA, Cap was directly breaking the law and encouraging others to do so, hence the word traitorous. I'm no Cap expert, but I think his past rebellions against the government haven't been illegal. I happen to believe Cap was taking the right stand, and I admired him as a hero for it. But the government arrested him and took him into custody, where he was killed by a hail of bullets. Now that he's dead, the original hero is gone from the Marvel U.
> >


I dont necessarily care for Caps behaviour but I do believe that there is something in the American constitution that goes on about bearing arms to fight enemies within or without or some such.

As for Cap being dead - get real - If you buy that you'll buy anything and Cap will be back as original and apple pie as he ever was sooner or later.


> > > - A Hulk who takes over New York City and tortures his friends;
> >
> > As opposed to simply smashing NYC up as he normally does?
> >
> > The same 'friends' blasted him into space and one of his new friends deceived him into thinking that it was those same people who were responsible for destroying his new world and wife.
> >
> > I would say that Hulks behaviour is perfectly understandible under those circumstances.
> >
> Understandable? Yes. Heroic? No. Villainous, in fact.
>


Hulk has for a long time behaved in a manner that could be construed as villainous - this isnt new.

Personally his behaviour during WWH is alot more justifiable than alot of the other stuff hes done in the past. He was blasted off into space and then his planet was destroyed in what could only be seen as an act of war.

Hulk invading NYC after what he suffered is no different than the West invading Afghanistan after 9/11 and Hulk only subjects his enemies to treatment similar to that which he was subjected to when they ballsed up a plan that was supposed to land him on a peaceful and fertile planet and instead landed him on one straight from the movie Gladiator.

The theme of the story would appear to be an eye for an eye which is very much as I recall the Hulk acting in the past.


> > > - A Cyclops who commands a death squad and issues kill orders;
> >
> > Because theres no mutants left and he's finally realised that slapping the wrist of the likes of mutant hating organisations like the Friends of Humanity or the purifiers isnt making them see the error of his ways. Perfectly plausable and perfectly realistic.
> >
> Realistic does not equal heroic. I can't look up to Scott for these actions.
>


Ive never been a big fan of Scott in any of his incarnations and this one is no different apart from the fact that the reasons I dont like him have changed.


> > You make him sound like a Nazi leading the SS into a Jewish ghetto in 1939 - dramatic much?
> >
> That's... quite a leap from the statement I made above, which is based on the facts as we know them now (in X-Force and New X-Men). My point is that Scott's actions aren't heroic.
>


Why? Scott has finally come to the realisation that mutants are stuck in a war - a war that theyre losing because theyve taken such a mealy-mouthed attitude towards dealing with people who want to kill them - so now he's organised a group of soldiers to fight the war in the way wars are supposed to be fought and dispose of their enemies once and for all instead of just slapping them on the wrist and hoping they go away.

How many bus loads of mutants to the purifiers have to blow up before the use of lethal force is not only justified but also seen as the best course of action availible? Do you honestly believe under the circumstances that giving them all Chinese burns and sending them on their way is more 'heroic'? I'd love to fight a war against you!


> > Move along - nothing to see here but yet another whine about how our heroes are unjustified or out of character when they either have every justification or have been behaving in a similar manner on and off for years.
> >
> > You have every right not to like it but lets not pretend that all of this is a big shock thats never happened before and we didnt see coming.
> >
> I'd say you missed the point (not to mention the intent) of my post. This is a post about heroes; it's point is that I admire the characters below. Its intent is to praise those characters. The characters and situations I mentioned above are there for context. It's fair to say I don't like the direction the above characters are taking. Is it interesting? Yes. Would I want my kids to look up to and idolize those characters? No.
>


Get real - youre kids are gonna end up looking up to Wolverine whether you like it or not! Kids dont want a flying discus like Cap or to be big brains like Reed, they want claws protruding out of their hands and a healing factor like Wolverine!

In and amongst all of your criticisms youve forgotten the fact that these characters are still conducting acts of great heroism in their monthly titles, apart from Cap who's 'dead' but even he displayed one of the most admirable attributes a person can have - the willingness to admit that he made mistakes and enough heart to regret them.


> As for whining, I think you'll agree that my comments below are a very long way from whining.
> >
> > >
> > > ... among many other examples. Most of the Marvel heroes of old are now fractured and lost in today's world. So who are the shining lights? Who remain heroes in today's world?
> > >
> > > Here's my short list (in no particular order):
> > >
> > > 1. Nova. In issue after issue, this guy makes personal sacrifices to do the right thing. Richard Rider is the new Peter Parker.
> > >
> > > 2. Thor. The last of the big three to remain noble and heroic. I'd like to see him leave the seclusion of Asgard and make himself more of a presence in the world though.
> > >
> > > 3. Multiple Man. The darker Cyclops gets, the more I admire Jamie Maddrox. He's trying to do good in a morally bankrupt world.
> > >
> > > 4. The Thing. The heart of the FF had the dignity to rise above the Civil War. He alone had the ability to realize it was lose-lose, and stayed out. I still love this guy.
> > >
> > > 5. The Young Avengers. I keep seeing them hop in the fray, despite the risk of personal consequences. They're junior fanboys who just want to make a difference, and in my mind, they're vastly more heroic than the actual Avengers (either team).
> > >
> >
> > I agree with all the above examples, but its not like the likes of Ironman, Spidey or Richards arent still putting their lives on the line. Theyre still fighting the good fight but just in a way you dont like.
>
> As with anything in comics, it's writer-dependent. I think a lot of characterization was off in Civil War and One More Day (among other stories), because those were the tales that Marvel wanted to tell. Now that those stories are over, and writers have more liberty to tell their own stories, the characters will find their heroism again, no doubt. But for me personally, I still think of Mephisto when I see Spider-man. I think of the former happiness of Peter and MJ when Peter pursues other women. I can't look at Aunt May. And when I see Reed, I still see Goliath. Maybe someday I'll be able to look at these examples and blame the skrulls, or some other plot devise - time will tell.

I would agree that characters are probably written slightly different to enable Marvel to tell the stories they want to tell but youre still talking like the examples above are the only ones that define the characters associated to them and dont give them any credit for either the motivations behind them or the fact that these heroes are still out there putting their lives at risk every day.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Michael




> It went something like this: Tony Stark influenced Peter to reveal his identity to the world in order to advance the Superhuman Registration Act (see my comments on Iron Man). As a direct result, the Kingpin took out a contract on Peter, MJ and Aunt May, succeeding in the shooting of Aunt May. While she lingered near death, Peter sought help from all friends, allies and even enemies, and all told him essentially the same thing: it's Aunt May's time, and Peter should use the remaining time to be with her and make peace with her death. Enter Mephisto. He claimed he could cure May, and his price would be that Peter and MJ would never have married and would not be in love. Incredibly, Peter and MJ said yes (first MJ got the secret identity back). Still, the fact remains that they threw away their vows before God by directly making a deal with the devil. Apparently the end justifies the means for Spider-man too.
The whole it was her time was used as an excuse to ignore the fact that May wouldn't be in this situation if Peter and Tony weren't morons. Tony apparently didn't have a way to protect the relatives of superheroes set up (as evidenced by the Hood threatening Tigra's mom) but he and Peter decided to reveal Peter's identity to the public. Peter remembers how Matt got screwed over when the Kingpin learned his identity and he expects the same thing not to happen to him. If it wasn't May, it could have been Flash or Betty or Robbie.
Michael


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Michael




> - A Reed Richards who makes a defective, murdering clone/cyborg of his old friend Thor;
To be fair to Reed, he was working with who he thought was Pym but turned out to be a Skrull. Skrullowjacket probably either tampered with Clor or lacked the real Pym's creative genius.OTOH,the Skrull wouldn't have been able to replace Pym in the first place if Reed hadn't taken part in the Illuminati's stupid attack on the Skrulls that enabled the Skrulls to become humans "physically and mentally".
Michael


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Michael




> >
> > >
> > > Though I agree with most of your responces (Peter was just trying to save Aunt May and Captian America is just standing up for all the other heroes), I'll have to disagree on Cyclops. I mean he sends teenagers out to kill their former mentors. I can understand Wolverine, X-23, Warpath, and maybe even Wolfabane, but it dosn't seem right to send the Young X-men out to do a job X-Force could do after they were finished with the Purifiers, or at least send someone older and more in tune with killing. Personally, after Messiah CompleX, I think he is acting a little scrully.
> >
> > Dont get me wrong, I also think that the Cyclops in YXM is either a Skrull or one of Donald Pierces cyborgs or something similar.
> >
> > The Cyclops in X-Force however I think is real and he behaves in a very similar way - which I think is justified under the current circumstances as the alternative is simply waiting for your enemies to make you extinct.
> >
> > As for sending teenagers out to fight and die and kill - thats been going on forever. The original X-Men were all teenagers and then there were teams like the New Mutants, New X-Men and the original X-Force who were also all teens and all involved in life or death battles.
>
> Well, all those teams (at least I think) were never ordered to kill anyone. Also wern't most the New Mutants/New Brotherhood instructors at the institute? I personally think it is a little wrong for oneteacher to ask you to kill another teacher. It's not that they're in peril or that they could kill someone, it's that Cyclops asks them to kill their former mentors. I hope Cyclops is not Cyclops, or this whole thing is like a training exercise or something.
The real problem was Scott having a psychic affair with Emma after Maddie got turned into the Goblin Queen. It made Scott look like he doesn't care if something similar happens to Jean.
Michael


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP
Malekith




Well said! Regarding Spiderman: Uncle Ben must be rolling in his grave. We all know the famous line by now.

I also think Hulk since Planet Hulk has been noble and on par with Thor. Never have I liked him more. Now this Red Hulk business just kind of muddles it up again. Too bad.


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows XP
USAgentfan






> >
> > Well, all those teams (at least I think) were never ordered to kill anyone. Also wern't most the New Mutants/New Brotherhood instructors at the institute? I personally think it is a little wrong for oneteacher to ask you to kill another teacher. It's not that they're in peril or that they could kill someone, it's that Cyclops asks them to kill their former mentors. I hope Cyclops is not Cyclops, or this whole thing is like a training exercise or something.

> The real problem was Scott having a psychic affair with Emma after Maddie got turned into the Goblin Queen. It made Scott look like he doesn't care if something similar happens to Jean.
> Michael

Maddie became the Goblin Queen in 1988.

Scott had his 'psychic affair' with Emma in 2004, nearly 20 years later.

What on earth makes you think that the one is linked to the other and what have either of them got to do with Scotts current cut-throat attitude?


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.14 on Windows XP
Michael




>
>
> > >
> > > Well, all those teams (at least I think) were never ordered to kill anyone. Also wern't most the New Mutants/New Brotherhood instructors at the institute? I personally think it is a little wrong for oneteacher to ask you to kill another teacher. It's not that they're in peril or that they could kill someone, it's that Cyclops asks them to kill their former mentors. I hope Cyclops is not Cyclops, or this whole thing is like a training exercise or something.
>
> > The real problem was Scott having a psychic affair with Emma after Maddie got turned into the Goblin Queen. It made Scott look like he doesn't care if something similar happens to Jean.
> > Michael
>
> Maddie became the Goblin Queen in 1988.
>
> Scott had his 'psychic affair' with Emma in 2004, nearly 20 years later.
>
> What on earth makes you think that the one is linked to the other and what have either of them got to do with Scotts current cut-throat attitude?
My point is that Scott's affair with Emma made it look like he didn't care if Jean gets magically turned evil as a result. Let me put it to you this way. Suppose I wrote a story about a character who cheats on his wife, his wife kills their baby as a result, and he cheats on a second wife. Would he seem like someone who values the sanctity of life?
Michael


Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 on Windows XP

Alvaro's Comicboards powered by On Topic™ © 2003-2022 Powermad Software