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Author
Unstable Molecule


Location: Calgary, AB Canada
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 3,105


I've been coming to the slow realization that "bad characterization" is subjective. I've been reading comics for about 25 years, and many of the characterizations I loved in my youth have changed dramatically in the past 10 - 15 years. In other words, what I would consider bad characterization is in fact the only characterization that newer readers know.

Here's a list of a few prominent examples:

1. Doctor Doom. A lot of the cardinal rules that I grew up with are falling by the wayside with the good doctor. From "Doom calls no one Master!" to Doom has had a secret master all these years. From "Whoever sees Doom's true face shall perish!" to the Sentry ripping off his mask and throwing him in prison, resulting in two guards chuckling about how hideous Doom's face is. From "Doom is above such mortal concerns as desire for the fairer sex!" to Doom having a (maskless) affair with Morgana Le Fay and imagining Emma Frost and (ahem) Loki as his sex slaves.

2. Monica Rambeau. Introduced as a strong, confident, capable black woman whose character wasn't even remotely about her gender or race - it was just great that she had those qualities in additon to everything else. Her natural strength and leadership allowed her to lead the Avengers as well as Captain America ever did. She brought dignity and grace to her role in the Avengers. I haven't been a big reader of NextWave or Black Panther, but I've read that she was an annoying blowhard in the former and insecure/incompetent in the latter.

3. The Wasp (Janet Van Dyne). In her glory days, she lead the team through the mansion seige storyline, emerging victorious. She wasn't the best leader of the Avengers by any means, but she was portrayed as a tough leader who could weather anything. But in later years she's been portrayed as someone who would jump in to bed with Hawkeye to spite her ex-husband; someone who's ditzy enough to drunkenly tip the Scarlet Witch over the edge about her dead children, etc.

4. Hawkeye (Clint Barton). In his WCA days, his "Avengers Don't Kill" attitude nearly cost him his marriage. Now he's killing skrulls by the dozen. Frankly I think the darkness of the costume is pulling him down. It's hard to be grim when your costume is blue and purple. ;\-\)

5. Spider-man. Making deals with the devil. Conducts himself more like Howard the Duck than Spider-man on the New Avengers.

And for all these examples, I think newer readers will consider the recent characterization as the true characterization. It's hard to say they're wrong when these newer characterizations have been persisting for years or even decades.

Any other characters that suit this syndrome?




"It is not our abilities that show what we truly are. It is our choices." – Albus Dumbledore
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jwmccay3




Great points. Yeah, there are a few others.

Tony Stark/Iron Man
Millionaire, playboy, powerful with the armor, powerful in the boardroom or in politics, happy-go-lucky and cocky at times, drukard at others. Has been used as a total tool lately, someone that no one wants to look at and say "I want to be him." He's become more of a government lackey, which is bad for a number of reasons...first off, being the lack of resourcefulness and thinking, then the incompetence and unprepared decision-making skills, and finally the inefficiency of the job...all of which were not very much like Tony at his height.

Spider-Man
The directions that the writers have taken in the last ten years have made me want to gag and wish for the days of the whole "Second Clone Saga" that everyone back then abhorred...the new direction over the years has just been horrible and led me away from my favorite character. There are many examples, but I'll just list a few--Spider-Cult storyline, the MK Spider-Man "all my villains are themed as animals because of a Norman Osborn-inspired government conspiracy," Gwen Stacy having twins with Norman Osborn (bull--where did we ever see Norman-Gwen contact back in the day???), Spidey making a deal with the devil, Spidey nearly killing the Kingpin, Spidey joining the Avengers (can you say "JUMPING THE SHARK" there Fonz...er, Quesada), marriage goes away, and more. Then there is the art...some of you may like Romita Jr. but his art really bites and I find it is a distraction from the stories, but hey, maybe that's a good thing considering the crap that has been dished out.

Nick Fury
Yeah, I know that he has always been a gov't spook, but the Secret Warriors thing may be taking it a little too far. Add to it the MAX Fury (not Peacemaker) and the Secret War Fury and you have a mess for the character. Yeah, I know that MAX is not 616, but new fans would not know that. He was basically invisible during Civil War and World War Hulk.

Dr. Strange
Totally misplaced on the Avengers. I always pictured Doc as part of the non-team of Defenders...there when necessary, but busy acting as SORCEROR SUPREME, not as a team magician on the run.

The Avengers
What exactly is the mission and purpose of the Avengers? What have they avenged? Cap's death--nope. Scarlet Witch wiping out mutantkind--nope. Taking the fight to the Skrulls and OFF THE FREAKING PLANET LIKE THEY USED TO--nope. Will they avenge the atrocities committed by Dark Reign? Too early to tell, but I will hazard a guess--a big NOPE.
Too many teams with no common purpose, no common foe (okay, the Skrulls, but that was different--they all had their own little battles). At least when there was West Coast and East Coast branches they had a common purpose.




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Nitz the Bloody




Many of those examples aren't examples of the new writers mangling the characters, but of the old writers not realizing their mistakes, the old fans running with those mistakes because of familiarity, and the new writers without the blinders of attachment writing the characters as they really are ( as opposed to idealizing them. Despite the nostalgia attached to the old comics, they were just as capable of and proven to dumb story moves. To whit...

-- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.

-- Monica Rambeau was dignified and graceful to the point of being bland and uninteresting; she came across as the stereotypical Model Minority character, the character who's acceptable for their race because they never call attention to it. Ellis' NextWave characterization made her interesting by taking a goody-two-shoes persona and making it that of a self-righteous has-been. It worked very well in the context.

-- The Wasp never had any qualities even remotely approaching those required of an Avengers leader, and never showed any strategic acumen beyond somehow managing to allow her team to survive. Her first years were as little more than a ditz; the problem wasn't modern writers making her a ditz, but the 80's and 90's writers thinking she could be anything more after two decades of ditziness.

-- The absolutist stance Clint Barton took against his wife killing the man who kidnapped, drugged, and raped her was profoundly dumb; even a staunch pacifist would ideally be able to forgive. That he's become less whiny about getting his hands dirty seems inevitable, especially in the case of the Skrulls invading the entire world ( exceptions made for heat-of-battle situations ).

-- You have a point that Spider-Man has been ruined, but the rest were cases where the original material had faults, and the modern writers pointing it out.


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...





    Quote:
    Many of those examples aren't examples of the new writers mangling the characters, but of the old writers not realizing their mistakes, the old fans running with those mistakes because of familiarity, and the new writers without the blinders of attachment writing the characters as they really are ( as opposed to idealizing them. Despite the nostalgia attached to the old comics, they were just as capable of and proven to dumb story moves. To whit...



    Quote:
    -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.




    Quote:
    -- Monica Rambeau was dignified and graceful to the point of being bland and uninteresting; she came across as the stereotypical Model Minority character, the character who's acceptable for their race because they never call attention to it. Ellis' NextWave characterization made her interesting by taking a goody-two-shoes persona and making it that of a self-righteous has-been. It worked very well in the context.



    Quote:
    -- The Wasp never had any qualities even remotely approaching those required of an Avengers leader, and never showed any strategic acumen beyond somehow managing to allow her team to survive. Her first years were as little more than a ditz; the problem wasn't modern writers making her a ditz, but the 80's and 90's writers thinking she could be anything more after two decades of ditziness.


She was also kind of... well, a bitch. Doing such things as insulting Iron man by calling him ugly before he revealed himself as Tony Stark. She also flirted with any male with a pulse for a while. And let's not forget her lack of understanding for Hank Pym still grieving over his deceased wife.




    Quote:
    -- The absolutist stance Clint Barton took against his wife killing the man who kidnapped, drugged, and raped her was profoundly dumb; even a staunch pacifist would ideally be able to forgive. That he's become less whiny about getting his hands dirty seems inevitable, especially in the case of the Skrulls invading the entire world ( exceptions made for heat-of-battle situations ).



    Quote:
    -- You have a point that Spider-Man has been ruined, but the rest were cases where the original material had faults, and the modern writers pointing it out.





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...





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Many of those examples aren't examples of the new writers mangling the characters, but of the old writers not realizing their mistakes, the old fans running with those mistakes because of familiarity, and the new writers without the blinders of attachment writing the characters as they really are ( as opposed to idealizing them. Despite the nostalgia attached to the old comics, they were just as capable of and proven to dumb story moves. To whit...

      Quote:

        Quote:
        -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.

        Quote:


          Quote:
          -- Monica Rambeau was dignified and graceful to the point of being bland and uninteresting; she came across as the stereotypical Model Minority character, the character who's acceptable for their race because they never call attention to it. Ellis' NextWave characterization made her interesting by taking a goody-two-shoes persona and making it that of a self-righteous has-been. It worked very well in the context.

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            -- The Wasp never had any qualities even remotely approaching those required of an Avengers leader, and never showed any strategic acumen beyond somehow managing to allow her team to survive. Her first years were as little more than a ditz; the problem wasn't modern writers making her a ditz, but the 80's and 90's writers thinking she could be anything more after two decades of ditziness.



    Quote:
    She was also kind of... well, a bitch. Doing such things as insulting Iron man by calling him ugly before he revealed himself as Tony Stark. She also flirted with any male with a pulse for a while. And let's not forget her lack of understanding for Hank Pym still grieving over his deceased wife.


oh and also, she was stupid enough to accept a marriage proposal from a man who was very clearly off his rocker, by cause of some nutso gas.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      -- The absolutist stance Clint Barton took against his wife killing the man who kidnapped, drugged, and raped her was profoundly dumb; even a staunch pacifist would ideally be able to forgive. That he's become less whiny about getting his hands dirty seems inevitable, especially in the case of the Skrulls invading the entire world ( exceptions made for heat-of-battle situations ).

      Quote:

        Quote:
        -- You have a point that Spider-Man has been ruined, but the rest were cases where the original material had faults, and the modern writers pointing it out.



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Spinner Rak





    Quote:
    I've been coming to the slow realization that "bad characterization" is subjective. I've been reading comics for about 25 years, and many of the characterizations I loved in my youth have changed dramatically in the past 10 - 15 years. In other words, what I would consider bad characterization is in fact the only characterization that newer readers know.



    Quote:
    Here's a list of a few prominent examples:


I want to add the Vision and the Scarlet Witch to this ever growing list.

I liked their relationship just fine because it showed a man and a woman from two different backgrounds can succeed. Positive storytelling that makes the readers think about how love is the answer.

I don't think I am the only one that was inspired by their romance. I know of two real friends that have stuck it out when others would give them a time limit. Friends would joke about giving them a more week. Yeah, he collects comics and is a big Vision fan.

But after some six years, these two young lovers endured. I like to think because they have no differences that truly matter. Just a man and a woman in love. Imagine my surprise when I read fans saying the Vision was nothing more than a "toaster" and Wanda " a troubled mutant nutjob".





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entzauberung





    Quote:
    I've been coming to the slow realization that "bad characterization" is subjective. I've been reading comics for about 25 years, and many of the characterizations I loved in my youth have changed dramatically in the past 10 - 15 years. In other words, what I would consider bad characterization is in fact the only characterization that newer readers know.


Most of the exmaples you cite weren't "original" characterizations either.



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Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,089



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I've been coming to the slow realization that "bad characterization" is subjective. I've been reading comics for about 25 years, and many of the characterizations I loved in my youth have changed dramatically in the past 10 - 15 years. In other words, what I would consider bad characterization is in fact the only characterization that newer readers know.



    Quote:
    Most of the exmaples you cite weren't "original" characterizations either.


With the exception of Monica Rambeau (who WAS introduced with the cited characterization), Unstable Molecule did not claim that they were the original characterizations, just better than the current/recent ones.



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Jase





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Many of those examples aren't examples of the new writers mangling the characters, but of the old writers not realizing their mistakes, the old fans running with those mistakes because of familiarity, and the new writers without the blinders of attachment writing the characters as they really are ( as opposed to idealizing them. Despite the nostalgia attached to the old comics, they were just as capable of and proven to dumb story moves. To whit...

        Quote:

          Quote:
          -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.

          Quote:


            Quote:
            -- Monica Rambeau was dignified and graceful to the point of being bland and uninteresting; she came across as the stereotypical Model Minority character, the character who's acceptable for their race because they never call attention to it. Ellis' NextWave characterization made her interesting by taking a goody-two-shoes persona and making it that of a self-righteous has-been. It worked very well in the context.

            Quote:

              Quote:
              -- The Wasp never had any qualities even remotely approaching those required of an Avengers leader, and never showed any strategic acumen beyond somehow managing to allow her team to survive. Her first years were as little more than a ditz; the problem wasn't modern writers making her a ditz, but the 80's and 90's writers thinking she could be anything more after two decades of ditziness.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        She was also kind of... well, a bitch. Doing such things as insulting Iron man by calling him ugly before he revealed himself as Tony Stark. She also flirted with any male with a pulse for a while. And let's not forget her lack of understanding for Hank Pym still grieving over his deceased wife.



    Quote:
    oh and also, she was stupid enough to accept a marriage proposal from a man who was very clearly off his rocker, by cause of some nutso gas.


I don't know that I'd classify it as stupid, so much as just plain disturbed on her part. In retrospect, one can easily view that as her taking advantage of Pym in his mentally impaired state.


    Quote:

      Quote:

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        -- The absolutist stance Clint Barton took against his wife killing the man who kidnapped, drugged, and raped her was profoundly dumb; even a staunch pacifist would ideally be able to forgive. That he's become less whiny about getting his hands dirty seems inevitable, especially in the case of the Skrulls invading the entire world ( exceptions made for heat-of-battle situations ).

        Quote:

          Quote:
          -- You have a point that Spider-Man has been ruined, but the rest were cases where the original material had faults, and the modern writers pointing it out.



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Jase





    Quote:
    Many of those examples aren't examples of the new writers mangling the characters, but of the old writers not realizing their mistakes, the old fans running with those mistakes because of familiarity, and the new writers without the blinders of attachment writing the characters as they really are ( as opposed to idealizing them. Despite the nostalgia attached to the old comics, they were just as capable of and proven to dumb story moves. To whit...



    Quote:
    -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.


I have no problem with Doom deciding that he should use his penis from time to time. (though I wonder how that Loki fantasy will play out once the mischief god inevitably resumes his more familiar gender)


    Quote:
    -- Monica Rambeau was dignified and graceful to the point of being bland and uninteresting; she came across as the stereotypical Model Minority character, the character who's acceptable for their race because they never call attention to it. Ellis' NextWave characterization made her interesting by taking a goody-two-shoes persona and making it that of a self-righteous has-been. It worked very well in the context.


Gotta disagree about Monica. The bottom-line for me is that she was at least treated as a viable superhero during her tenure as an Avenger whereas she was simply just another punchline for NextWave(admittedly, as were all the other characters though).

It's a shame she never really caught on with most of the other creators. The real problem as far as her development is concerned is that only her creator Roger Stern was ever seriously interested in writing her.


    Quote:
    -- The Wasp never had any qualities even remotely approaching those required of an Avengers leader, and never showed any strategic acumen beyond somehow managing to allow her team to survive. Her first years were as little more than a ditz; the problem wasn't modern writers making her a ditz, but the 80's and 90's writers thinking she could be anything more after two decades of ditziness.


Does that mean she should always be perceived as a ditz though, regardless of that's how she started out? The problem with Jan around this period is similar as to what occurred with Monica - once Stern stopped writing her, Jan quickly reverted to what everyone knew her best as - Pym's sometimes annoying arm ornament.


    Quote:
    -- The absolutist stance Clint Barton took against his wife killing the man who kidnapped, drugged, and raped her was profoundly dumb; even a staunch pacifist would ideally be able to forgive. That he's become less whiny about getting his hands dirty seems inevitable, especially in the case of the Skrulls invading the entire world ( exceptions made for heat-of-battle situations ).


I don't know, it's tricky for me to comment on this bit of Hawkeye history since even though I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid viewpoint nonetheless(not indiscriminately killing/letting die the bad guy).

As for the Skrulls - hey, it was war. They were hostile foreign invaders. If they gotta die, they gotta die.


    Quote:
    -- You have a point that Spider-Man has been ruined, but the rest were cases where the original material had faults, and the modern writers pointing it out.


There's...not nearly enough for me to say about Spider-Man at this point.





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Jase





    Quote:
    Great points. Yeah, there are a few others.



    Quote:
    Tony Stark/Iron Man
    Millionaire, playboy, powerful with the armor, powerful in the boardroom or in politics, happy-go-lucky and cocky at times, drukard at others. Has been used as a total tool lately, someone that no one wants to look at and say "I want to be him." He's become more of a government lackey, which is bad for a number of reasons...first off, being the lack of resourcefulness and thinking, then the incompetence and unprepared decision-making skills, and finally the inefficiency of the job...all of which were not very much like Tony at his height.


Gotta agree with most points here. Just speaking for me, but ever since The Crossing, I just a lot whole lot of interest in Iron Man as an individual character and haven't cared to see him in anything other than a component of the Avengers Big Three and no run on the book since has really brought me back to the title. The best Iron Man I've seen in recent years was the one from the movie.


    Quote:
    Spider-Man
    The directions that the writers have taken in the last ten years have made me want to gag and wish for the days of the whole "Second Clone Saga" that everyone back then abhorred...the new direction over the years has just been horrible and led me away from my favorite character. There are many examples, but I'll just list a few--Spider-Cult storyline, the MK Spider-Man "all my villains are themed as animals because of a Norman Osborn-inspired government conspiracy," Gwen Stacy having twins with Norman Osborn (bull--where did we ever see Norman-Gwen contact back in the day???), Spidey making a deal with the devil, Spidey nearly killing the Kingpin, Spidey joining the Avengers (can you say "JUMPING THE SHARK" there Fonz...er, Quesada), marriage goes away, and more. Then there is the art...some of you may like Romita Jr. but his art really bites and I find it is a distraction from the stories, but hey, maybe that's a good thing considering the crap that has been dished out.


Must not get started on Spidey...

But I will say though that I love JRjr.'s art, though I do wanna see him on characters other than Spidey. He did an awesome job with characters like Thor and the Eternals, and his version of Iron Man's armor during Armor Wars II is still one of my favorites. It had just the right mix of sleek and bulk to it.


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    Nick Fury
    Yeah, I know that he has always been a gov't spook, but the Secret Warriors thing may be taking it a little too far. Add to it the MAX Fury (not Peacemaker) and the Secret War Fury and you have a mess for the character. Yeah, I know that MAX is not 616, but new fans would not know that. He was basically invisible during Civil War and World War Hulk.


I don't think that many people even remember enough of MAX Fury for it to be a problem. IMO, the bigger problem in terms of recognizability for the character is Ultimate Fury.


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    Dr. Strange
    Totally misplaced on the Avengers. I always pictured Doc as part of the non-team of Defenders...there when necessary, but busy acting as SORCEROR SUPREME, not as a team magician on the run.


I also preferred Doc on the Defenders. Still, Doc on Avengers COULD have worked, and could still one day. But it was the wrong era of Avengers for him to join and be relevant. Doc is(or was) the sorceror supreme, he should be on a big guns team handling big, earth-shattering threats, not joining a street-level Avengers where he had to be de-powered to fit and where his biggest contribution was giving the team a meeting place.


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    The Avengers
    What exactly is the mission and purpose of the Avengers? What have they avenged? Cap's death--nope. Scarlet Witch wiping out mutantkind--nope. Taking the fight to the Skrulls and OFF THE FREAKING PLANET LIKE THEY USED TO--nope. Will they avenge the atrocities committed by Dark Reign? Too early to tell, but I will hazard a guess--a big NOPE.
    Too many teams with no common purpose, no common foe (okay, the Skrulls, but that was different--they all had their own little battles). At least when there was West Coast and East Coast branches they had a common purpose.


Avengers doesn't have the kind of detailed, focused reason for being of teams like FF and the X-Men...but has never really needed it, IMO. I'm happy with it being about a team handling threats a single hero can't, in a cinematic, action-adventure style approach. Avengers New or Dark don't intrigue me in the slightest. Mighty Avengers would have been a reasonable alternative, but there aren't enough characters I care about on the team(Clint Barton and Mockingbird for instance would be much better suited to a team like MA, IMO).



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Nitz the Bloody







    Quote:
    I have no problem with Doom deciding that he should use his penis from time to time. (though I wonder how that Loki fantasy will play out once the mischief god inevitably resumes his more familiar gender)


Doom removes his armor for the first time in years, steps into a cold shower, then alternates between scrubbing himself hard enough to break skin and hysterically sobbing?


    Quote:
    Gotta disagree about Monica. The bottom-line for me is that she was at least treated as a viable superhero during her tenure as an Avenger whereas she was simply just another punchline for NextWave(admittedly, as were all the other characters though).


Viable yet unspectacular superheroes are a dime a dozen in the Marvel Universe, so it could have been any number of other lesser heroes; that it was Monica doesn't bother me.


    Quote:
    It's a shame she never really caught on with most of the other creators. The real problem as far as her development is concerned is that only her creator Roger Stern was ever seriously interested in writing her.


Well, there are plenty of cases where a writer's interest in the character they created for a universe isn't contagious; Lifeguard and Slipstream weren't break-out stars of the X-Men either, were they?


    Quote:
    Does that mean she should always be perceived as a ditz though, regardless of that's how she started out? The problem with Jan around this period is similar as to what occurred with Monica - once Stern stopped writing her, Jan quickly reverted to what everyone knew her best as - Pym's sometimes annoying arm ornament.


Busiek tried to write her as a competent leader, with similarly unimpressive results; the regressions to a ditz were done because writing her as anything would be a 180-twist ( at least Ultimate Wasp was designed to be competent from the start, if profoundly messed-up in her personal life ).


    Quote:
    I don't know, it's tricky for me to comment on this bit of Hawkeye history since even though I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid viewpoint nonetheless(not indiscriminately killing/letting die the bad guy).


From Bobbi's perspective, having her husband lecture her on the wrongs of killing the guy who raped her isn't really the appropriate response for him.


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    As for the Skrulls - hey, it was war. They were hostile foreign invaders. If they gotta die, they gotta die.


I wouldn't phrase it like that, since it isn't about the Skrulls being the " Other ", so much as the situation being tense enough that killing their way out was the only credible option for the Avengers.


    Quote:
    There's...not nearly enough for me to say about Spider-Man at this point.


Let's just hope that soon he returns to a place where he's finished puberty ( or started, for that matter ).


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Jase





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      I have no problem with Doom deciding that he should use his penis from time to time. (though I wonder how that Loki fantasy will play out once the mischief god inevitably resumes his more familiar gender)



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    Doom removes his armor for the first time in years, steps into a cold shower, then alternates between scrubbing himself hard enough to break skin and hysterically sobbing?


Doom knows all there is to know about the crying game.


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      Gotta disagree about Monica. The bottom-line for me is that she was at least treated as a viable superhero during her tenure as an Avenger whereas she was simply just another punchline for NextWave(admittedly, as were all the other characters though).



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    Viable yet unspectacular superheroes are a dime a dozen in the Marvel Universe, so it could have been any number of other lesser heroes; that it was Monica doesn't bother me.



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      It's a shame she never really caught on with most of the other creators. The real problem as far as her development is concerned is that only her creator Roger Stern was ever seriously interested in writing her.



    Quote:
    Well, there are plenty of cases where a writer's interest in the character they created for a universe isn't contagious; Lifeguard and Slipstream weren't break-out stars of the X-Men either, were they?


No, but we've seen success stories as well that can mainly be attributed to that kind of approach. It was Claremont's love of Wolverine that helped make him the media juggernaut that he is today.

And on another note, Bendis' run on Avengers has Cage and Spider-Woman on the team(and Jessica Jones), and thus back in the public spotlight simply because he likes them.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Does that mean she should always be perceived as a ditz though, regardless of that's how she started out? The problem with Jan around this period is similar as to what occurred with Monica - once Stern stopped writing her, Jan quickly reverted to what everyone knew her best as - Pym's sometimes annoying arm ornament.



    Quote:
    Busiek tried to write her as a competent leader, with similarly unimpressive results; the regressions to a ditz were done because writing her as anything would be a 180-twist ( at least Ultimate Wasp was designed to be competent from the start, if profoundly messed-up in her personal life ).


Outside of the Stern run, who seriously tried to write Jan as anything more than what she was though? Byrne practically all but had them get re-married during his AWC stint. Busiek tried to fit it in because it was previously established history thanks to Stern, but you could tell while reading it he wasn't really feeling it.

90% of the Jan stuff out there portrays her as a ditz. I know and accept this. It would have been nice though if someone else would have tried to at least build on that to make her more, instead of leaving her as an almost prophetically bizarre version of Paris Hilton.

That said, I'm gonna hijack some points of your thread from the AMB and say I totally buy Pym and Jan as a weird, 616-style version of House and Cameron(though I can see elements of Stacy in there as well). As for Pym's Wilson, Bill Foster had he lived, would have fit that role pretty well, better than Stark or Jarvis, since Wilson, despite his attempts to try and 'fix' House is also in many ways an enabler of him as well. Eric O'Grady, Cassie Lang and Tom Foster, as proteges of Pym would be interesting. If you're looking for a pre-existing character as a Cuddy type for Pym though, you might be better served making one up - I can't(at least at this moment) think of a pre-existing character who could conceivably have that kind of dynamic with Pym.

(Yes, I'm a big House fan. \:\- )


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      I don't know, it's tricky for me to comment on this bit of Hawkeye history since even though I don't necessarily agree with it, I think it's a valid viewpoint nonetheless(not indiscriminately killing/letting die the bad guy).



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    From Bobbi's perspective, having her husband lecture her on the wrongs of killing the guy who raped her isn't really the appropriate response for him.


No, it wasn't.


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      As for the Skrulls - hey, it was war. They were hostile foreign invaders. If they gotta die, they gotta die.



    Quote:
    I wouldn't phrase it like that, since it isn't about the Skrulls being the " Other ", so much as the situation being tense enough that killing their way out was the only credible option for the Avengers.


It doesn't matter to me about them being the "Other". They were invading Earth. If Hydra, the Brotherhood, or the Kree performed that kind of assault on the planet, then in my mind, the heroes shouldn't feel bad about taking life to preserve life.


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      Quote:
      There's...not nearly enough for me to say about Spider-Man at this point.



    Quote:
    Let's just hope that soon he returns to a place where he's finished puberty ( or started, for that matter ).


BTW, I like the cast page for Ruby.



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 on Windows XP
SEHS66







    Quote:
    Any other characters that suit this syndrome?

The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on............



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 on Windows XP
Nitz the Bloody






    Quote:
    Doom knows all there is to know about the crying game.


Alternately, Doom might still be sore about the fact that Reed picked Sue over him, and is just using the endless battle of wits as a means of avoidance...


    Quote:
    No, but we've seen success stories as well that can mainly be attributed to that kind of approach. It was Claremont's love of Wolverine that helped make him the media juggernaut that he is today.


It's different there because of the X-Men Claremont inherited, only Cyclops, Xavier, and Jean were established characters ( with Xavier often being shuttled off into space, and Jean going in a completely different direction than she'd been shown ). Logan was almost as much of a blank slate when Claremont inherited him as the other International heroes, so his development wasn't the kind of author favoritism that elevates the author's character above the ones he'd been given by others.


    Quote:
    And on another note, Bendis' run on Avengers has Cage and Spider-Woman on the team(and Jessica Jones), and thus back in the public spotlight simply because he likes them.


Jessica Jones definitely ( though she's never been an official member, mostly just hanging out in the background with the baby ), but Luke and Jessica both had been well-established before Bendis took over. Their presence may reflect Bendis' love of the 70's ( especially Jessica Drew in recent issues, who is literally lifted out of the past after being usurped by Veranke ), but they aren't " Mary Sues " in that sense.


    Quote:
    Outside of the Stern run, who seriously tried to write Jan as anything more than what she was though? Byrne practically all but had them get re-married during his AWC stint. Busiek tried to fit it in because it was previously established history thanks to Stern, but you could tell while reading it he wasn't really feeling it.


Fair point, though Busiek did do away with the ditz Jan of his first few issues rather swiftly, chalking it up to " Revertigo " ( a How I Met Your Mother term for regressing in maturity around old friends, for those not in the know ).


    Quote:
    90% of the Jan stuff out there portrays her as a ditz. I know and accept this. It would have been nice though if someone else would have tried to at least build on that to make her more, instead of leaving her as an almost prophetically bizarre version of Paris Hilton.


The Giant Girl of Marvel Adventures Avengers does this pretty well, in no small part because she's in a version of the Marvel universe where being a goofy ditz is encouraged, as opposed to a tremendous combat liability.


    Quote:
    That said, I'm gonna hijack some points of your thread from the AMB and say I totally buy Pym and Jan as a weird, 616-style version of House and Cameron(though I can see elements of Stacy in there as well). As for Pym's Wilson, Bill Foster had he lived, would have fit that role pretty well, better than Stark or Jarvis, since Wilson, despite his attempts to try and 'fix' House is also in many ways an enabler of him as well. Eric O'Grady, Cassie Lang and Tom Foster, as proteges of Pym would be interesting. If you're looking for a pre-existing character as a Cuddy type for Pym though, you might be better served making one up - I can't(at least at this moment) think of a pre-existing character who could conceivably have that kind of dynamic with Pym.


My choices for the Cuddy to Hank's House would either be Alice Nugent or Tigra, though one's a super-villainess and the other is hardly material for a position of authority.


    Quote:
    (Yes, I'm a big House fan. \:\- )


I am too. But if we were trying to pick characters who specifically match the roles of House's staff ( regardless of prior attachment to Hank ), who'd you pick? Jan makes a good Cameron, while I'd pick Slipstream for Chase, the Falcon for Foreman, Felicia Hardy for Thirteen, and Scott Summers as Taub. Thunderbird 3 can be Kutner, though in light of recent episodes, Thunderbird 1 might be more accurate \:\(



    Quote:
    It doesn't matter to me about them being the "Other". They were invading Earth. If Hydra, the Brotherhood, or the Kree performed that kind of assault on the planet, then in my mind, the heroes shouldn't feel bad about taking life to preserve life.


Fair enough, my apologies for misinterpreting.


    Quote:
    BTW, I like the cast page for Ruby.


Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it, because I sure as hell enjoyed writing it ( shades of Mark Millar's villains come across in hindsight ).



Posted with Apple Safari 4.0 on MacOS X
Jase





    Quote:
    Jessica Jones definitely ( though she's never been an official member, mostly just hanging out in the background with the baby ), but Luke and Jessica both had been well-established before Bendis took over. Their presence may reflect Bendis' love of the 70's ( especially Jessica Drew in recent issues, who is literally lifted out of the past after being usurped by Veranke ), but they aren't " Mary Sues " in that sense.


No, but for the most part they were still effectively...how do I put it - well, dead. Creatively at least. Cage was still bouncing around the MU, but had nowhere near the visibility he once had till he was pulled in for New Avengers #1, and Jessica Drew was even worse off, depowered and forgotten about, with another superheroine operating as Spider-Woman. Even The Sentry was practically almost just a What If character till he was dragged in to do a whole lot of nothing.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Outside of the Stern run, who seriously tried to write Jan as anything more than what she was though? Byrne practically all but had them get re-married during his AWC stint. Busiek tried to fit it in because it was previously established history thanks to Stern, but you could tell while reading it he wasn't really feeling it.



    Quote:
    Fair point, though Busiek did do away with the ditz Jan of his first few issues rather swiftly, chalking it up to " Revertigo " ( a How I Met Your Mother term for regressing in maturity around old friends, for those not in the know ).



    Quote:

      Quote:
      90% of the Jan stuff out there portrays her as a ditz. I know and accept this. It would have been nice though if someone else would have tried to at least build on that to make her more, instead of leaving her as an almost prophetically bizarre version of Paris Hilton.



    Quote:
    The Giant Girl of Marvel Adventures Avengers does this pretty well, in no small part because she's in a version of the Marvel universe where being a goofy ditz is encouraged, as opposed to a tremendous combat liability.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      That said, I'm gonna hijack some points of your thread from the AMB and say I totally buy Pym and Jan as a weird, 616-style version of House and Cameron(though I can see elements of Stacy in there as well). As for Pym's Wilson, Bill Foster had he lived, would have fit that role pretty well, better than Stark or Jarvis, since Wilson, despite his attempts to try and 'fix' House is also in many ways an enabler of him as well. Eric O'Grady, Cassie Lang and Tom Foster, as proteges of Pym would be interesting. If you're looking for a pre-existing character as a Cuddy type for Pym though, you might be better served making one up - I can't(at least at this moment) think of a pre-existing character who could conceivably have that kind of dynamic with Pym.



    Quote:
    My choices for the Cuddy to Hank's House would either be Alice Nugent or Tigra, though one's a super-villainess and the other is hardly material for a position of authority.


I think you've almost made my point for me. \:D


    Quote:

      Quote:
      (Yes, I'm a big House fan. \:\- )



    Quote:
    I am too. But if we were trying to pick characters who specifically match the roles of House's staff ( regardless of prior attachment to Hank ), who'd you pick? Jan makes a good Cameron, while I'd pick Slipstream for Chase, the Falcon for Foreman, Felicia Hardy for Thirteen, and Scott Summers as Taub. Thunderbird 3 can be Kutner, though in light of recent episodes, Thunderbird 1 might be more accurate \:\(


Sounds like fun -

Jan has all the necessary traits for Cameron. Despite their breakups, she keeps coming back to Hank. Or: one could push her to the Stacy role(the lost love who almost throws away her current happiness to repeat past mistakes), and use Firebird as a Cameron analogue. Like Cameron, Bonita can be blind(well, maybe not blind, but...let's say dismissive) to Hank's faults.

While he seems to have moved away from that characterization, my favorite version of Chase is still the one where he's a House brown-noser. Almost no one is left in the MU who still respects Hank enough to want to please him no matter what. If Scott Lang was still alive, maybe. I'd have to revisit this one later.

The Eric Foreman figure needs to be someone who respects him, but will still get in his face. Sam Wilson will get in anybody's face. The Tom Foster Goliath seems young and angry enough to challenge and defy Pym at times, and it would be a little easier to see him as deferential to Pym than Sam. There's also the Beast. On a team that had the Black Panther, Tony Stark, and Hank Pym, I remember Hank McCoy could get pretty annoyed and opinionated when he was sometimes dismissed and overlooked for scientific contributions.

Cyke as Taub?!?! Well, he is a stick to the point jerk with a troubled marriage...then again, his little brother Havok can also pull that same shtick and might be more malleable for this type of scenario than Scott IMO.

I'm also thinking someone feline for Thirteen, though I had in mind a somewhat tamer Greer Nelson, or even Patsy Walker.

And Kutner! Ah Kutner! Someone who shares the House/Pym philosophy of science. Maybe a new(er) character. Maybe the Eddie McDonough Hornet from Slingers. He was a bit of a science geek and doesn't have enough history to disrespect him.

I still like Bill for Wilson, but he's dead. And I still can't find a good Marvel character for Cuddy yet. MAYBE a (somewhat) reformed Sunset Bain. Maybe.

I think it also needs to be said that for the Pym/House analogy to truly succeed, Hank needs to get a whole lot more arrogant than he's been...like, EVER.


    Quote:


      Quote:
      It doesn't matter to me about them being the "Other". They were invading Earth. If Hydra, the Brotherhood, or the Kree performed that kind of assault on the planet, then in my mind, the heroes shouldn't feel bad about taking life to preserve life.



    Quote:
    Fair enough, my apologies for misinterpreting.


No problem.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      BTW, I like the cast page for Ruby.



    Quote:
    Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed reading it, because I sure as hell enjoyed writing it ( shades of Mark Millar's villains come across in hindsight ).





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 on Windows XP
Nitz the Bloody






    Quote:
    No, but for the most part they were still effectively...how do I put it - well, dead. Creatively at least. Cage was still bouncing around the MU, but had nowhere near the visibility he once had till he was pulled in for New Avengers #1, and Jessica Drew was even worse off, depowered and forgotten about, with another superheroine operating as Spider-Woman. Even The Sentry was practically almost just a What If character till he was dragged in to do a whole lot of nothing.


I suppose it's splitting hairs to say that there's a difference between " embryonic, forgotten history " and " no history ", since the effect still renders Luke, Jessica, and Sentry as Bendis' pet characters, the way Photon was Stern's pet, or ( in the worst examples of the trope ) the way Austen brought in Nurse Annie.


    Quote:
    Jan has all the necessary traits for Cameron. Despite their breakups, she keeps coming back to Hank. Or: one could push her to the Stacy role(the lost love who almost throws away her current happiness to repeat past mistakes), and use Firebird as a Cameron analogue. Like Cameron, Bonita can be blind(well, maybe not blind, but...let's say dismissive) to Hank's faults.


Bonita's probably even better, since her relationship with Hank is much more ephemeral than Jan's, and her debut as a Catholic Sister further established her as a martyr complex character. Which makes Jan a better Stacy ( especially given how she left House when he was at his worst ).

So if we're doing recurring secondary characters as well, we need casting for Vogler, Tritter, Amber, and House's dad. House's dad I see as Howard Stark, but the other three need further thought.


    Quote:
    While he seems to have moved away from that characterization, my favorite version of Chase is still the one where he's a House brown-noser. Almost no one is left in the MU who still respects Hank enough to want to please him no matter what. If Scott Lang was still alive, maybe. I'd have to revisit this one later.


Bereft of attachment to the House/Hank figure, I think the most Chase-like character is Warren Worthington pre-Apocalypse; poor little rich boy, hunky blonde looks, questionable commitment to the heroic mission, and daddy issues.


    Quote:
    The Eric Foreman figure needs to be someone who respects him, but will still get in his face. Sam Wilson will get in anybody's face. The Tom Foster Goliath seems young and angry enough to challenge and defy Pym at times, and it would be a little easier to see him as deferential to Pym than Sam. There's also the Beast. On a team that had the Black Panther, Tony Stark, and Hank Pym, I remember Hank McCoy could get pretty annoyed and opinionated when he was sometimes dismissed and overlooked for scientific contributions.


Hank might be a good Wilson figure, but I don't see him as a Foreman type with something to prove. And Triathlon would be a comparison demeaning to Foreman.


    Quote:
    Cyke as Taub?!?! Well, he is a stick to the point jerk with a troubled marriage...then again, his little brother Havok can also pull that same shtick and might be more malleable for this type of scenario than Scott IMO.


True, since Alex has spent much more of his career AWOL ( from 1975-1987, he was just camped out in Arizona with Polaris ), and hasn't shown the same interest in doing the right thing. Plus, if you want heroes tempted into sex, his time as Madelyne's " Goblin Prince "...well, 'nuff said.


    Quote:
    I'm also thinking someone feline for Thirteen, though I had in mind a somewhat tamer Greer Nelson, or even Patsy Walker.


I brought up Felicia because both characters are apparently bisexual, albeit in the phoniest, most Hollywood way possible. If we're going for the character with the terminal illness, though, then I can't think of any with Thirteen's demeanor...


    Quote:
    And Kutner! Ah Kutner! Someone who shares the House/Pym philosophy of science. Maybe a new(er) character. Maybe the Eddie McDonough Hornet from Slingers. He was a bit of a science geek and doesn't have enough history to disrespect him.


Prodigy from the latest generation of Xavier Academy students might work, and if Doug Ramsey were still around, he might as well ( though Kutner doesn't have Doug's inferiority complex, unless you believe that his suicide retconned all his well-adjusted behavior into a lie ).


    Quote:
    I still like Bill for Wilson, but he's dead. And I still can't find a good Marvel character for Cuddy yet. MAYBE a (somewhat) reformed Sunset Bain. Maybe.


I mentioned Hank McCoy, since they're both supporting characters who everyone loves, and characters who have shown a bit of moral weakness ( Hank may not have the multiple divorces, but his relationship to Trish Tilby came across as very temporary to me, even before he " outed " himself on national television to piss her off ). Hank's a good pal but not a character with the same drives to action as others, which may explain why he's never really had a starring role.


    Quote:
    I think it also needs to be said that for the Pym/House analogy to truly succeed, Hank needs to get a whole lot more arrogant than he's been...like, EVER.


Fortunately, Dan Slott's done a good job of bringing Hank back to the forefront while still making it clear that he's a total mess.

By the way, if you don't mind my asking, have you kept up with the rest of Ruby's World? The latest chapter was done with certain X-realtionship dynamics in mind as targets for deconstruction...


Posted with Apple Safari 4.0 on MacOS X
Jase





    Quote:
    Bonita's probably even better, since her relationship with Hank is much more ephemeral than Jan's, and her debut as a Catholic Sister further established her as a martyr complex character. Which makes Jan a better Stacy ( especially given how she left House when he was at his worst ).


Bonita as Cameron it is.

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    Quote:
    So if we're doing recurring secondary characters as well, we need casting for Vogler, Tritter, Amber, and House's dad. House's dad I see as Howard Stark, but the other three need further thought.


I can buy Howard Stark as the elder House. I would need to give the other three some more thought.


    Quote:
    Bereft of attachment to the House/Hank figure, I think the most Chase-like character is Warren Worthington pre-Apocalypse; poor little rich boy, hunky blonde looks, questionable commitment to the heroic mission, and daddy issues.


Thats a good catch with Worthington. It would even still be a viable analogy if not for the return of Archangel in X-Force.

I even think Simon Williams aka Wonderman, sans the blond hair, could fit that above description too.


    Quote:
    Hank might be a good Wilson figure, but I don't see him as a Foreman type with something to prove. And Triathlon would be a comparison demeaning to Foreman.


Aside from being black, Triathlon/3-D Man and Foreman have nothing in common character-wise. Beast as Wilson though...I could get on that train.


    Quote:
    True, since Alex has spent much more of his career AWOL ( from 1975-1987, he was just camped out in Arizona with Polaris ), and hasn't shown the same interest in doing the right thing. Plus, if you want heroes tempted into sex, his time as Madelyne's " Goblin Prince "...well, 'nuff said.


Those wacky Summers boys. But yeah, for this, I'd rather go w/ Alex than Scott.


    Quote:
    I brought up Felicia because both characters are apparently bisexual, albeit in the phoniest, most Hollywood way possible. If we're going for the character with the terminal illness, though, then I can't think of any with Thirteen's demeanor...


I agree about the bisexuality being phony in both cases. It's being used more to titillate the reader/viewer, rather than being an actual character trait.

I will say though that I think it was used to interesting effect in the Lucky Thirteen episode where had sex with a patient.


    Quote:
    Prodigy from the latest generation of Xavier Academy students might work, and if Doug Ramsey were still around, he might as well ( though Kutner doesn't have Doug's inferiority complex, unless you believe that his suicide retconned all his well-adjusted behavior into a lie ).


I think i read somewhere that Doug might be coming in New Mutants, which is \(yes\) in my book, even though it continues to further make death almost laughable in the MU.

And yes, I can take Kutner's suicide as a retcon of his previous behavior w/out much trouble. Everybody lies, you know.

Another idea for Kutner: maybe Vance Astrovik. In many ways, Vance almost parallels Pym. Both begun their careers as rather earnest and straightforward superheroes(as Ant-Man and Marvel Boy, respectively). Both had rather public and messy trials based on personal failings(Vance's inadvertent manslaughter of his abusive father, and post-breakdown Pym being framed by Egghead). Both have had painful breakups with a significant other even though for some time they were pretty solid couples(Jan & hank and Vance & Firestar). And both have had interesting conflicts with the supervillain Whirlwind. Defeating Whirlwind got Vance and Firestar slots on the Avengers teams, and Hank...well, see for yourself -

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    Quote:
    I mentioned Hank McCoy, since they're both supporting characters who everyone loves, and characters who have shown a bit of moral weakness ( Hank may not have the multiple divorces, but his relationship to Trish Tilby came across as very temporary to me, even before he " outed " himself on national television to piss her off ). Hank's a good pal but not a character with the same drives to action as others, which may explain why he's never really had a starring role.


I can totally buy McCoy as Wilson.

Another candidate could be Dane Whitman aka Black Knight, who's pretty close to the failed relationships of Wilson. He was lovesick for Jan to the point it affected his performance as an Avenger, ignored Victoria Bentley, and lusted after the married Crystal while carrying on a dalliance with the increasingly obsessive Sersi.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think it also needs to be said that for the Pym/House analogy to truly succeed, Hank needs to get a whole lot more arrogant than he's been...like, EVER.



    Quote:
    Fortunately, Dan Slott's done a good job of bringing Hank back to the forefront while still making it clear that he's a total mess.


Sounds good. Marvel heroes are supposed to be walking wrecks who still somehow manage to pull off saving the day. I really think if Pym is to be a viable character, then there has to be more of this in Hank's future -

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- instead of the more recent slings like "You HIT Jan!" or 'Three words for why you're wrong for the job. You're Hank Pym.'

Besides, Hank can also do this apparently -

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Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the 'good' Ultron, Ultron-12 aka Mark. Not sure where he would or could fit, but a devoted son Ultron could be an interesting change of pace.

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    Quote:
    By the way, if you don't mind my asking, have you kept up with the rest of Ruby's World? The latest chapter was done with certain X-realtionship dynamics in mind as targets for deconstruction...


First off, I'll say the art style suits the tone of the stories and is steadily improving, particularly the backgrounds and settings.

I'm all for deconstruction of X-tropes, just make sure you don;t let it sidetrack your story. I don't think that happened in the recent chapter though. The plot is still on track. I don't know if it was your intent, but I did get kind of a Logan/Jean vibe in the last installment. There's kind of that noble samurai thing Wolverine had going for him for awhile evident in Jiro, even though that aspect of Wolverine didn't really come into play until well after the height of the Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine 'triangle' had come to an end with Jean's death, and has been pretty much cast aside from Logan's current persona since New X-Men.

In general, I'm rather dismissive of the Scott/Logan/Jean affair since pretty much almost ALL of the 'Jean returns Logan's feelings' moments didn't exist until long after the death of the Phoenix. At the time it was going on, it was essentially Scott struggling with his feelings for Jean in the wake of her power-up, and Wolverine enviously desiring Jean for himself. And that was pretty much it.





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 on Windows XP
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,089



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I brought up Felicia because both characters are apparently bisexual, albeit in the phoniest, most Hollywood way possible. If we're going for the character with the terminal illness, though, then I can't think of any with Thirteen's demeanor...



    Quote:
    I agree about the bisexuality being phony in both cases. It's being used more to titillate the reader/viewer, rather than being an actual character trait.


At least in Felicia's case I'm not even sure if her bisexuality was used to tittilate the reader since there was so little mention of it so far. In Spider-Girl, where it was introduced, Felicia's lesbian (and interracial) life-partnership(1) apparently was so controversial that it was completely ignored after a handful of stories, and what has there been seen of it in the mainstream Marvel Universe apart from one throwaway comment in one issue of "The Evil That Men Do"?

(1) Which was mainly shown as a factor that alienated her daughter from Felicia, although it would seem that Felicity was angry at her mother for having a happy relationship with any person other than her father (Flash Thompson) and not so much for that person being a woman (although at least on person who wrote to Marvel to object to Felicia being in a relationship with another woman liked to see Felicity as sharing her own view on homosexuality).



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.20 on Windows 98
Jase





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I brought up Felicia because both characters are apparently bisexual, albeit in the phoniest, most Hollywood way possible. If we're going for the character with the terminal illness, though, then I can't think of any with Thirteen's demeanor...

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I agree about the bisexuality being phony in both cases. It's being used more to titillate the reader/viewer, rather than being an actual character trait.



    Quote:
    At least in Felicia's case I'm not even sure if her bisexuality was used to tittilate the reader since there was so little mention of it so far. In Spider-Girl, where it was introduced, Felicia's lesbian (and interracial) life-partnership(1) apparently was so controversial that it was completely ignored after a handful of stories, and what has there been seen of it in the mainstream Marvel Universe apart from one throwaway comment in one issue of "The Evil That Men Do"?


I was mainly going by the comment from that 'Evil Men Do' story, as I don't consider it as relevant for the character(my opinion). I quite simply forgot DeFalco used that as a plotline for Hardy in Spider-Girl as I haven't read those issues in a while. I'm not sure who actually 'outed' Felicia as a bisexual though. If you say it was in Spider-Girl, I'll take your word for it.


    Quote:
    (1) Which was mainly shown as a factor that alienated her daughter from Felicia, although it would seem that Felicity was angry at her mother for having a happy relationship with any person other than her father (Flash Thompson) and not so much for that person being a woman (although at least on person who wrote to Marvel to object to Felicia being in a relationship with another woman liked to see Felicity as sharing her own view on homosexuality).





Posted with Mozilla Firefox 3.0.10 on Windows XP
Nitz the Bloody






    Quote:
    I can buy Howard Stark as the elder House. I would need to give the other three some more thought.


After watching the Iron Man movie again with my girlfriend ( also a House fan, though not a Marvel one ), it occurs to me that Tony might be an even better analogue; while he may not be a doctor, he is a disturbed genius with a manipulative streak, an addictive personality, and a small circle of extremely co-dependent friends ( Rhodey comes to mind as House's Wilson, while Pepper could either be Cameron or Cuddy. And Obadiah comes across as Vogler, to stretch it even further... )


    Quote:
    Thats a good catch with Worthington. It would even still be a viable analogy if not for the return of Archangel in X-Force.



    Quote:
    I even think Simon Williams aka Wonderman, sans the blond hair, could fit that above description too.


Simon would be the second best choice, but Warren eventually started being written as a competent and committed hero ( similar to Chase, even if the means in which that happened involved shackling him to Cameron ), while Simon's still a selfish jerk.


    Quote:
    Aside from being black, Triathlon/3-D Man and Foreman have nothing in common character-wise. Beast as Wilson though...I could get on that train.


Especially since, like Wilson, Beast can be extremely sarcastic when the situation calls for it. I realize that Foreman and Triathlon have nothing in common beyond the race issue, but Foreman's quest to prove his competence often has resulted in him becoming " House-Lite " ( House minus the engaging personality and insights ), so that further complicates things.


    Quote:
    I agree about the bisexuality being phony in both cases. It's being used more to titillate the reader/viewer, rather than being an actual character trait.


    Quote:
    I will say though that I think it was used to interesting effect in the Lucky Thirteen episode where had sex with a patient.


It was interesting, but it also had the misfortune of being followed shortly thereafter with her hooking up with Foreman, so it leaves the audience with the impression that heterosexuality is Thirteen on the path to redemption, while homosexuality is her being self-destructive.


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    I think i read somewhere that Doug might be coming in New Mutants, which is \(yes\) in my book, even though it continues to further make death almost laughable in the MU.


I seriously hope that's not true, but it's way too likely that it will be.


    Quote:
    And yes, I can take Kutner's suicide as a retcon of his previous behavior w/out much trouble. Everybody lies, you know.


I can't, unfortunately; while there are tragically many real world precedents for suicidal people hiding their depression from those around them, narratives tend to call for explanation, and to just have Kutner shoot himself like that left me feeling deeply unsatisfied. And the fact that the focus of the episode was House's crackpot theories about why Kutner did it made it even more insulting ( yes, I get that Kal Penn left to work for the Obama administration, but that they would just have him cap himself and follow it with a couple episodes of angst suggests the character wasn't even important in the first place ).


    Quote:
    Another idea for Kutner: maybe Vance Astrovik. In many ways, Vance almost parallels Pym. Both begun their careers as rather earnest and straightforward superheroes(as Ant-Man and Marvel Boy, respectively). Both had rather public and messy trials based on personal failings(Vance's inadvertent manslaughter of his abusive father, and post-breakdown Pym being framed by Egghead). Both have had painful breakups with a significant other even though for some time they were pretty solid couples(Jan & hank and Vance & Firestar). And both have had interesting conflicts with the supervillain Whirlwind. Defeating Whirlwind got Vance and Firestar slots on the Avengers teams, and Hank...well, see for yourself -


Thank you for that picture of naked angry giant Hank, with Whirlwind in the foreground to less-than-tastefully cover Hank's gargantuan junk. It will provide several entertaining nightmares and a severe lack of sleep for the months to come \:p


    Quote:
    Another candidate could be Dane Whitman aka Black Knight, who's pretty close to the failed relationships of Wilson. He was lovesick for Jan to the point it affected his performance as an Avenger, ignored Victoria Bentley, and lusted after the married Crystal while carrying on a dalliance with the increasingly obsessive Sersi.


That's a pretty accurate connection to Wilson's love life, though Wilson's patterns have changed some since Amber.


    Quote:
    - instead of the more recent slings like "You HIT Jan!" or 'Three words for why you're wrong for the job. You're Hank Pym.'


There's been speculation that the Tony who appeared in the first arc of Mighty Avengers was another construct of Loki's; I like that theory, since not only does it remove one more stain from Tony's Civil War-onward record, but it explains the discrepancies it has with the current Iron Man arc ( where san Extremis, Tony can't even do simple tasks with the most current armor ).


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    Besides, Hank can also do this apparently -


I'm curious as to how a miniature Hank is an effective substitute for a full-sized man-part, but that goes into territory past the board's PG-13 guidelines...


    Quote:
    First off, I'll say the art style suits the tone of the stories and is steadily improving, particularly the backgrounds and settings.


Thanks. Will keep at it ( especially the backgrounds, which I had difficulty with early on, but am finding more and more value in practicing ).


    Quote:
    I'm all for deconstruction of X-tropes, just make sure you don;t let it sidetrack your story. I don't think that happened in the recent chapter though. The plot is still on track. I don't know if it was your intent, but I did get kind of a Logan/Jean vibe in the last installment. There's kind of that noble samurai thing Wolverine had going for him for awhile evident in Jiro, even though that aspect of Wolverine didn't really come into play until well after the height of the Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine 'triangle' had come to an end with Jean's death, and has been pretty much cast aside from Logan's current persona since New X-Men.


To be fair, that kind of love triangle is broader than just the X-Men, but it was my first frame of reference; especially since my intention was to have Jiro as the Cyclops figure, with Jens as the Wolverine type. The good boy vs. bad boy thing, though I tried to complicate matters ( Jiro is more restrained but is much more capable of destruction; Jens is more upfront but is just normal human in his capabilities. And Ruby's in too much of a funk to notice either at the moment ).


    Quote:
    In general, I'm rather dismissive of the Scott/Logan/Jean affair since pretty much almost ALL of the 'Jean returns Logan's feelings' moments didn't exist until long after the death of the Phoenix. At the time it was going on, it was essentially Scott struggling with his feelings for Jean in the wake of her power-up, and Wolverine enviously desiring Jean for himself. And that was pretty much it.


I realize that it was a massive ret-con, but at this point it's been around so long that it's hard to envision the X-Books in their present without that backdrop.


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Jase





    Quote:


      Quote:
      I can buy Howard Stark as the elder House. I would need to give the other three some more thought.



    Quote:
    After watching the Iron Man movie again with my girlfriend ( also a House fan, though not a Marvel one ), it occurs to me that Tony might be an even better analogue; while he may not be a doctor, he is a disturbed genius with a manipulative streak, an addictive personality, and a small circle of extremely co-dependent friends ( Rhodey comes to mind as House's Wilson, while Pepper could either be Cameron or Cuddy. And Obadiah comes across as Vogler, to stretch it even further... )


Tony is a MUCH better House analogue than Hank. He's got the pre-requisite insufferable yet justified arrogance intact -

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One would just need to up the Holmesian tendency to decay in the absence of his intellectual stimuli and we're ready to go. And we've barely gotten into his pre-packaged chemical dependency issues...

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      Thats a good catch with Worthington. It would even still be a viable analogy if not for the return of Archangel in X-Force.

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        I even think Simon Williams aka Wonderman, sans the blond hair, could fit that above description too.



    Quote:
    Simon would be the second best choice, but Warren eventually started being written as a competent and committed hero ( similar to Chase, even if the means in which that happened involved shackling him to Cameron ), while Simon's still a selfish jerk.


Hey, Simon's made great strides in his hero's journey. He'll sleep with your girlfriend but not rub it in your face. \:\-\)

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      I think i read somewhere that Doug might be coming in New Mutants, which is \(yes\) in my book, even though it continues to further make death almost laughable in the MU.



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    I seriously hope that's not true, but it's way too likely that it will be.


I don't mind too much since his death was pretty sucky in the first place. On the other hand, there's that further cheapening of death...


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      Quote:
      Another idea for Kutner: maybe Vance Astrovik. In many ways, Vance almost parallels Pym. Both begun their careers as rather earnest and straightforward superheroes(as Ant-Man and Marvel Boy, respectively). Both had rather public and messy trials based on personal failings(Vance's inadvertent manslaughter of his abusive father, and post-breakdown Pym being framed by Egghead). Both have had painful breakups with a significant other even though for some time they were pretty solid couples(Jan & hank and Vance & Firestar). And both have had interesting conflicts with the supervillain Whirlwind. Defeating Whirlwind got Vance and Firestar slots on the Avengers teams, and Hank...well, see for yourself -



    Quote:
    Thank you for that picture of naked angry giant Hank, with Whirlwind in the foreground to less-than-tastefully cover Hank's gargantuan junk. It will provide several entertaining nightmares and a severe lack of sleep for the months to come \:p


Yeah, if I was a supervillain, I'd be Nightmare. \(devil\)


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm all for deconstruction of X-tropes, just make sure you don;t let it sidetrack your story. I don't think that happened in the recent chapter though. The plot is still on track. I don't know if it was your intent, but I did get kind of a Logan/Jean vibe in the last installment. There's kind of that noble samurai thing Wolverine had going for him for awhile evident in Jiro, even though that aspect of Wolverine didn't really come into play until well after the height of the Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine 'triangle' had come to an end with Jean's death, and has been pretty much cast aside from Logan's current persona since New X-Men.



    Quote:
    To be fair, that kind of love triangle is broader than just the X-Men, but it was my first frame of reference; especially since my intention was to have Jiro as the Cyclops figure, with Jens as the Wolverine type. The good boy vs. bad boy thing, though I tried to complicate matters ( Jiro is more restrained but is much more capable of destruction; Jens is more upfront but is just normal human in his capabilities. And Ruby's in too much of a funk to notice either at the moment ).


Jens' constant needling of Jiro was definitely the highlight of this recent installment.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      In general, I'm rather dismissive of the Scott/Logan/Jean affair since pretty much almost ALL of the 'Jean returns Logan's feelings' moments didn't exist until long after the death of the Phoenix. At the time it was going on, it was essentially Scott struggling with his feelings for Jean in the wake of her power-up, and Wolverine enviously desiring Jean for himself. And that was pretty much it.



    Quote:
    I realize that it was a massive ret-con, but at this point it's been around so long that it's hard to envision the X-Books in their present without that backdrop.


While I have zero qualms about Jean one day returning, one of the good things with her current status as a quantum mechanical thought experiment is that I don't have to suffer anymore of Logan's redhead fetish. Though I still have to deal with Cyclops' current telepathic fling...*sigh* \:\-\[



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jay





    Quote:
    It was Claremont's love of Wolverine that helped make him the media juggernaut that he is today.


Actually, that was Byrne and Frank Miller who made Logan the juggernaut he became. Claremont thought him boring, and was actually planning to kill him off.


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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



    Quote:
    -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.


True, but I think what we're losing with Doom has been the more interesting idea that he's got a fairly severe self-constructed persona, one in which his "normal" human urges have been suppressed or sublimated into the person of the untouchable and inhuman Doctor Doom.

Instead, more recent stories want to make him a) a fairly generic psychopath and b) an analogue for real-world, modern-day dictators. He really doesn't work as either, in the end -- he's monarch of a fantasy kingdom with his own castle, a character deliberately drawn from 19th century fiction's various Ruritanias. The basic visual style and plot trappings of the character seems to me to render absurd the pseudo-political Doom, the one who's apparently intended as some kind of vague commentary on the idea of an anti-American dictator for whom morality doesn't exist.

Doom is, when written appropriately, scarier than that: he's proof that an ostensibly rigid moral code can ultimately be an excuse for mere psychopathy and megalomania even when it's adhered to stringently. That is, he's capable of structured behavior and the adoption of a code of conduct without any of the moral reasoning that animates such things.

Rather than the dictator who relishes the petty abuses and personal pleasures bought by his power, think of Doom as the scarier, subtler threat. Not a psychopath incapable of existing in a society, but rather a sociopath capable of turning the mechanisms and codes of society into a mechanism for gaining power, esteem, and privilege at the cost of other human beings and eventually the system itself.

Think, for instance, of Adolf Hitler, still an emblem of absolute human evil: a strict vegetarian, rigidly anti-smoking, capable of strict monogamy with Eva Braun, and a fanatic running a genocide machine in the name of an insane but likewise very structured regime of genocide, hatred, and conquest.

Think of the masterminds of Islamic extremism, like Osama bin Laden, people who have built their lives around laws and rules -- no eating of pork, no alcohol, a polygamous mode of sexual continence, etc. -- and yet can casually murder thousands of civilians for their holy wars.

These aren't the sorts of people who fantasize about chaining women to a throne like Jabba the Hutt. These are the sorts of people who can tell themselves that directing death camps and suicide attacks are good and right things to do because they don't want to chain women to the throne, because they don't rape, because they still the stirrings of carnal desire or minor temptations -- human urges -- in themselves. Those human urges instead find their outlet in monstrous wickedness, in hatred, and in the running of the killing machine, the conquering army, the genocidal society.

Indeed, one of the classic signs of sociopathy and psychopathy is an inability to find gratification in sexual and other fantasies; this is why they try to turn the world into a set of disposable fantasy objects. Sociopaths simply have more structured, specific fantasies; psychopaths have almost no structure to those fantasies, and tend to become random serial killers or disorganized criminals rather than socially successful and politically powerful monsters.

Doom, I think, is never more frightening than when he's the sort of man who wouldn't make his foes into rape victims but because of that thinks himself perfectly right in simply and casually murdering them for his own ends. Doom isn't scary because he has no limits; he's scary because he thinks hewing to certain arbitrary and ultimately meaningless self-imposed limits justifies the awful and horrible things he does.

He's created a delusional self-image, that of Victor von Doom, the great monarch, the most brilliant intellect on the planet, the master of self-control, a master of himself first and therefore the master of all other things. He is capable of infinite cruelty and violence in part because he claims to have chosen certain forms of cruelty and violence over others, a man endlessly making small and inconsequential "moral" compromises with himself in order to justify himself.

Remember, at bottom Doom's motivations have always really been about insecurity: he can't tolerate the idea that Reed might be smarter, he can't handle the notion that his mother's deal with the devil had the usual consequences, and he rejects the notion that he needs to suborn himself to the codes and morals of the rest of the world when he could invent his own and prove them right by staying true to them and still winning. He needs to work within his rigid self-delusion in order to prove to himself, first and foremost, that he's...well, Doctor Doom, Rightful Master of the World.

Because somewhere, he's insanely frightened of the idea that he might have human weaknesses of failings, that he might be little more than a bright Romany boy who met an American scientist who's a bit brighter, or that, worst of all, that his life has been not only a pointless waste but a complete and utter failure on every single level. To make someone a sex slave would be to admit that he wants sex, that he should've simply hooked up with Valeria and forgotten his mad ambitions, maybe even become a kind of second-rate Reed Richards.

And that idea, any hint of that idea, should be intolerable to Doctor Doom...and Doom smart enough to notice when he's headed in that direction.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Does that mean she should always be perceived as a ditz though, regardless of that's how she started out? The problem with Jan around this period is similar as to what occurred with Monica - once Stern stopped writing her, Jan quickly reverted to what everyone knew her best as - Pym's sometimes annoying arm ornament.



    Quote:
    Busiek tried to write her as a competent leader, with similarly unimpressive results; the regressions to a ditz were done because writing her as anything would be a 180-twist ( at least Ultimate Wasp was designed to be competent from the start, if profoundly messed-up in her personal life ).


It probably helps to remember when and why we started to get "serious Wasp" in the 1980s. The basic idea of the story seemed to be that when Hank went bonkers and smacked her, she was forced to confront real life for maybe the first time in her career. Instead of getting to be the casual superhero who fought bad guys for a lark with her wonderful fantasy lover, she had to figure out who on Earth she was on her own terms.

Jim Shooter and Roger Stern's take was that she managed it; the justification was that, having been in life-or-death situations and consequential battles and dilemmas before, she was able to draw on the accidental experience being a Marvel superhero could confer and actually grow the hell up when she was forced to.

Taken in that way, it's not hard to see why many fans both like the "tough leader" Wasp and bitterly complain about the various writers over the years who've tried to reconstruct the Hank-n-Jan romance or create a substitute for it.

That doesn't mean other takes on the character are illegitimate, but it does mean, I think, that writing the character as a ditzy super-socialite requires some thought being given to what the efforts to take her away from that characterization were trying to get at. The Wasp going back to being an airheaded thrill-seeker should be a bit more tragic, I think, in its portrayal. It's the story of a young woman who had a chance to become a grown-up, made some steps in that direction, and then blew it. It'd be nice to see someone make something of that personal failing and the lost potential involved in it rather than simply writing off and then killing off the character to do endless "redemption" arcs about Hank Pym, troubled genius.

Indeed, that latter direction is rather disturbing in that it seems to play to exactly the delusion that the Wasp was supposed to have outgrown: it's as if the writers want to see Hank as the potentially great superhero and broken bird needing to be fixed that ditz-Jan apparently saw him as.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 3.2.1 on MacOS X
bd2999

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Good stuff, I always adored the good Dr. Doom and found him to be Marvels most compelling villan. Or at least in the top three. The fact that he has some honor in him and is not normally really that hateful toward his people is interesting to me. I mean in SW he made a paradise that the others could not deal with because it was Doom in charge of it.

All of what you said is true for most of the instances, I just found his honor to be most compelling. He boasts about his intellect and how others are below him often but most of them are in terms of intellect, but he has honored his foes most of the time. At least to one degree or another he acts riegal.

I think what Doom needs is an event around him. He needs to give a reason for people to fear and respect him again.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      -- Dr. Doom has a functional reproductive system under his metal suit, has shown interest in the opposite sex with Valeria*, and it is not a stretch to believe that he would have urges and try to fulfil them.



    Quote:
    True, but I think what we're losing with Doom has been the more interesting idea that he's got a fairly severe self-constructed persona, one in which his "normal" human urges have been suppressed or sublimated into the person of the untouchable and inhuman Doctor Doom.



    Quote:
    Instead, more recent stories want to make him a) a fairly generic psychopath and b) an analogue for real-world, modern-day dictators. He really doesn't work as either, in the end -- he's monarch of a fantasy kingdom with his own castle, a character deliberately drawn from 19th century fiction's various Ruritanias. The basic visual style and plot trappings of the character seems to me to render absurd the pseudo-political Doom, the one who's apparently intended as some kind of vague commentary on the idea of an anti-American dictator for whom morality doesn't exist.



    Quote:
    Doom is, when written appropriately, scarier than that: he's proof that an ostensibly rigid moral code can ultimately be an excuse for mere psychopathy and megalomania even when it's adhered to stringently. That is, he's capable of structured behavior and the adoption of a code of conduct without any of the moral reasoning that animates such things.



    Quote:
    Rather than the dictator who relishes the petty abuses and personal pleasures bought by his power, think of Doom as the scarier, subtler threat. Not a psychopath incapable of existing in a society, but rather a sociopath capable of turning the mechanisms and codes of society into a mechanism for gaining power, esteem, and privilege at the cost of other human beings and eventually the system itself.



    Quote:
    Think, for instance, of Adolf Hitler, still an emblem of absolute human evil: a strict vegetarian, rigidly anti-smoking, capable of strict monogamy with Eva Braun, and a fanatic running a genocide machine in the name of an insane but likewise very structured regime of genocide, hatred, and conquest.



    Quote:
    Think of the masterminds of Islamic extremism, like Osama bin Laden, people who have built their lives around laws and rules -- no eating of pork, no alcohol, a polygamous mode of sexual continence, etc. -- and yet can casually murder thousands of civilians for their holy wars.



    Quote:
    These aren't the sorts of people who fantasize about chaining women to a throne like Jabba the Hutt. These are the sorts of people who can tell themselves that directing death camps and suicide attacks are good and right things to do because they don't want to chain women to the throne, because they don't rape, because they still the stirrings of carnal desire or minor temptations -- human urges -- in themselves. Those human urges instead find their outlet in monstrous wickedness, in hatred, and in the running of the killing machine, the conquering army, the genocidal society.



    Quote:
    Indeed, one of the classic signs of sociopathy and psychopathy is an inability to find gratification in sexual and other fantasies; this is why they try to turn the world into a set of disposable fantasy objects. Sociopaths simply have more structured, specific fantasies; psychopaths have almost no structure to those fantasies, and tend to become random serial killers or disorganized criminals rather than socially successful and politically powerful monsters.



    Quote:
    Doom, I think, is never more frightening than when he's the sort of man who wouldn't make his foes into rape victims but because of that thinks himself perfectly right in simply and casually murdering them for his own ends. Doom isn't scary because he has no limits; he's scary because he thinks hewing to certain arbitrary and ultimately meaningless self-imposed limits justifies the awful and horrible things he does.



    Quote:
    He's created a delusional self-image, that of Victor von Doom, the great monarch, the most brilliant intellect on the planet, the master of self-control, a master of himself first and therefore the master of all other things. He is capable of infinite cruelty and violence in part because he claims to have chosen certain forms of cruelty and violence over others, a man endlessly making small and inconsequential "moral" compromises with himself in order to justify himself.



    Quote:
    Remember, at bottom Doom's motivations have always really been about insecurity: he can't tolerate the idea that Reed might be smarter, he can't handle the notion that his mother's deal with the devil had the usual consequences, and he rejects the notion that he needs to suborn himself to the codes and morals of the rest of the world when he could invent his own and prove them right by staying true to them and still winning. He needs to work within his rigid self-delusion in order to prove to himself, first and foremost, that he's...well, Doctor Doom, Rightful Master of the World.



    Quote:
    Because somewhere, he's insanely frightened of the idea that he might have human weaknesses of failings, that he might be little more than a bright Romany boy who met an American scientist who's a bit brighter, or that, worst of all, that his life has been not only a pointless waste but a complete and utter failure on every single level. To make someone a sex slave would be to admit that he wants sex, that he should've simply hooked up with Valeria and forgotten his mad ambitions, maybe even become a kind of second-rate Reed Richards.



    Quote:
    And that idea, any hint of that idea, should be intolerable to Doctor Doom...and Doom smart enough to notice when he's headed in that direction.







Look Raist bunnies...
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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



    Quote:

      Quote:
      It was Claremont's love of Wolverine that helped make him the media juggernaut that he is today.



    Quote:
    Actually, that was Byrne and Frank Miller who made Logan the juggernaut he became. Claremont thought him boring, and was actually planning to kill him off.


Killing him off? My understanding was that Claremont intended to turn Logan into a villain by having the Hand brainwash him.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 3.2.1 on MacOS X
Nitz the Bloody




My problem with the Shooter/Stern theory is that it believes that the accidental skill Jan picked up just by hanging around Hank all those years is enough to make her credible as an effective leader. Jan's hands-on experience was limited to that of a sidekick; even after she stopped just hiding on Hank's shoulder during battles, she still functioned in a very auxillary capacity, being small and stinging lightly when needed, but not being on the frontlines or having a practical, quantifiable skill.

Had Jan taken time off after her divorce and done something like go to a martial arts monastery in Tibet ( as cliche as it sounds ), it would have made her elevation from ditz to leader more acceptable. But that's not what happened; I suppose it's a remnant of the days when Avengers chairman was a rotating position for an innocuous clubhouse meeting, but it's still not something I'm sold on. As much as I don't like the idea of Jan's contribution to the Marvel Universe being exclusively in the context of Hank, perhaps it was too late to do otherwise a long time ago?

( Also, Omar; check your PMs on the CBR forums )



Posted with Apple Safari 4.0 on MacOS X
Jase





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        It was Claremont's love of Wolverine that helped make him the media juggernaut that he is today.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Actually, that was Byrne and Frank Miller who made Logan the juggernaut he became. Claremont thought him boring, and was actually planning to kill him off.



    Quote:
    Killing him off? My understanding was that Claremont intended to turn Logan into a villain by having the Hand brainwash him.


That's my understanding as well. I recall reading in a fanzine back in the day interviewing Claremont post-X-Men what some of his plans would have been had he continued, and I recall reading that exact same scenario, in addition to claiming he would have killed off Professor X 'once and for all' and forced Magneto to become a hero. Or something along those lines.






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