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mjyoung




There are various titles at Marvel that have low sells, like Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Iron Fist, Moon Knight, etc, which are always in danger of being canceled due to sales. So I thought it would make for an interesting thread to post ideas on what these books can do to improve their sales performance. I'll try to avoid obvious fixes like putting highly popular creators on the books. Some of these ideas are being done already, and some of them are only being done by certain books. My examples are just used to help illustrate my points, not meant to start an argument. So no crying if I say I think your favorite title made a mistake.

Feel free to add your own or contest my ideas.

1. Shorter story arcs.

It's typical for many titles to use a 6 issue story arc, but it doesn't mean that every title should do it. Readers will be reluctant to try out a series if the cost of a complete story is going to be $18 for 6 issues. If instead there was a 3 issue story for $9, readers would be more interested in sampling the title. So a focus on shorter story arcs, something like 3 or 4 issues at most would have a positive benefit for the title.

Good Example: Deadpool with a 3 issue arc with SI, 2 issues of a zombie story, 2 issues against Tiger Shark, and 2/4 issues crossing over with the Thunderbolts.
Bad Example: Moon Knight with a the Bottom being 6 issues, Midnight Sun at 6 issues, God and Country at 6 issues, The Death of Marc Specter at 5 issues, and Down South at 5 issues.

2. More focused tie ins.

Tie ins to the the big event are fine, but it has to be more limited and more focused. Ghost Rider being a part of World War Hulk isn't necessarily needed. Similarly, we don't need 6 issues of Ms. Marvel's involvement in Secret Invasion. Make sure the story comes first, and it's not just a wasted tie in.

Good Example: Incredible Hercules with tie ins with WWH, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign that made sense.
Bad Example: Ms. Marvel with really an irrelevant tie in to SI, which added nothing to the story. And Dark Reign which replaced the character.

3. More cohesive Marvel U.

Every story shouldn't tie into the rest of Marvel, but some should. Maybe it makes sense for a story arc teaming up Iron Fist and Luke Cage, or the Punisher and Moon Knight, or Young X-Men and the Runaways. Various combinations could work, but make sure they are good stories and not just sales stunts. In the same vein, don't be afraid to use concepts and characters from other titles. Maybe Ghost Rider vs the Hood makes sense, or Moon Knight vs Wendigo, or Captain Britain vs Dracula. Use established characters and ideas. If you need a New York reporter, use an established character from the Daily Bugle. If the option is between using a new character or an established one, go with the established one.

Good Example: Deadpool mixing up with Nick Fury, Norman Osborn, the Thunderbolts, Taskmaster, Bullseye, etc.
Bad Example: Plokta, a Lord of Hell, in Captain Britain, when numerous other villains could have been used.

4. Comics on time.

Late comics are somewhat common, but it does have an effect on sales. And these title can't afford to lose any readers, especially because of a delay in a story. Reducing the story arcs will help, but planning ahead will help even more. Plan it so that a 3 issue arc by one artist is followed up by a 3 issue arc by another. Worse case scenario, plan ahead so that any delays will happen
between stories and not issues.

5. Simplicity in stories.

No complicated and complex stories. No complicated and complex characters. A reader should be able to pick up a story and easily understand what is going on. A reader should easily know who each character is. In a solo series, make sure the supporting cast is limited and easy to understand. Make sure that the status quo of the title is relatively consistent over a period of time.

Good Example: Deadpool, Incredible Herc. Both with a small supporting cast, and have remained relatively consistent in terms of their status quos.
Bad Example: Ms. Marvel with various supporting cast members in her agent, her Kree Boyfriend, Shield Agents, other heroes, ex-boyfriends, etc. Went from being just a solo hero looking to become better, to being in charge of a SHIELD strike force, dieing?, etc. Even her love interests have been a revolving door.


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Jase





    Quote:
    There are various titles at Marvel that have low sells, like Ms. Marvel, Ghost Rider, Iron Fist, Moon Knight, etc, which are always in danger of being canceled due to sales. So I thought it would make for an interesting thread to post ideas on what these books can do to improve their sales performance. I'll try to avoid obvious fixes like putting highly popular creators on the books. Some of these ideas are being done already, and some of them are only being done by certain books. My examples are just used to help illustrate my points, not meant to start an argument. So no crying if I say I think your favorite title made a mistake.


\:'\(


    Quote:
    Feel free to add your own or contest my ideas.



    Quote:
    1. Shorter story arcs.



    Quote:
    It's typical for many titles to use a 6 issue story arc, but it doesn't mean that every title should do it. Readers will be reluctant to try out a series if the cost of a complete story is going to be $18 for 6 issues. If instead there was a 3 issue story for $9, readers would be more interested in sampling the title. So a focus on shorter story arcs, something like 3 or 4 issues at most would have a positive benefit for the title.



    Quote:
    Good Example: Deadpool with a 3 issue arc with SI, 2 issues of a zombie story, 2 issues against Tiger Shark, and 2/4 issues crossing over with the Thunderbolts.
    Bad Example: Moon Knight with a the Bottom being 6 issues, Midnight Sun at 6 issues, God and Country at 6 issues, The Death of Marc Specter at 5 issues, and Down South at 5 issues.


I somewhat agree. I would amend this slightly to story arcs should vary in length depending on the subject manner and shouldn't be unnecessarily padded out just to fill out the trade. I don't think every storyline should be capped either though. For example, I think Oeming's Ragnarok arc is one of the few storylines that might have actually benefited from being longer. My own personal preference would story arcs w/ vary lengths of 2-6 issues(as well more done-in-ones sprinkled throughout).


    Quote:
    2. More focused tie ins.



    Quote:
    Tie ins to the the big event are fine, but it has to be more limited and more focused. Ghost Rider being a part of World War Hulk isn't necessarily needed. Similarly, we don't need 6 issues of Ms. Marvel's involvement in Secret Invasion. Make sure the story comes first, and it's not just a wasted tie in.



    Quote:
    Good Example: Incredible Hercules with tie ins with WWH, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign that made sense.
    Bad Example: Ms. Marvel with really an irrelevant tie in to SI, which added nothing to the story. And Dark Reign which replaced the character.


I agree that the tie-ins should more focused for only the characters that are actually involved/affected by the crossover. That GR tie-in for WWH you mention is a good example of something thrown in superfluously.


    Quote:
    3. More cohesive Marvel U.



    Quote:
    Every story shouldn't tie into the rest of Marvel, but some should. Maybe it makes sense for a story arc teaming up Iron Fist and Luke Cage, or the Punisher and Moon Knight, or Young X-Men and the Runaways. Various combinations could work, but make sure they are good stories and not just sales stunts. In the same vein, don't be afraid to use concepts and characters from other titles. Maybe Ghost Rider vs the Hood makes sense, or Moon Knight vs Wendigo, or Captain Britain vs Dracula. Use established characters and ideas. If you need a New York reporter, use an established character from the Daily Bugle. If the option is between using a new character or an established one, go with the established one.



    Quote:
    Good Example: Deadpool mixing up with Nick Fury, Norman Osborn, the Thunderbolts, Taskmaster, Bullseye, etc.
    Bad Example: Plokta, a Lord of Hell, in Captain Britain, when numerous other villains could have been used.



    Quote:
    4. Comics on time.



    Quote:
    Late comics are somewhat common, but it does have an effect on sales. And these title can't afford to lose any readers, especially because of a delay in a story. Reducing the story arcs will help, but planning ahead will help even more. Plan it so that a 3 issue arc by one artist is followed up by a 3 issue arc by another. Worse case scenario, plan ahead so that any delays will happen
    between stories and not issues.


All I can add here is that I agree. There's too many delays on some of the flagship titles, and it does hurt interest when a storyline is interrupted because it's not coming out on time. Unfortunately, delays seem to just be part of the comics landscape now, so they should be taken into account and planned for. That idea of at least making sure each story arc comes out on time with delays between arcs is one I agree with.


    Quote:
    5. Simplicity in stories.



    Quote:
    No complicated and complex stories. No complicated and complex characters. A reader should be able to pick up a story and easily understand what is going on. A reader should easily know who each character is. In a solo series, make sure the supporting cast is limited and easy to understand. Make sure that the status quo of the title is relatively consistent over a period of time.



    Quote:
    Good Example: Deadpool, Incredible Herc. Both with a small supporting cast, and have remained relatively consistent in terms of their status quos.
    Bad Example: Ms. Marvel with various supporting cast members in her agent, her Kree Boyfriend, Shield Agents, other heroes, ex-boyfriends, etc. Went from being just a solo hero looking to become better, to being in charge of a SHIELD strike force, dieing?, etc. Even her love interests have been a revolving door.


This one I disagree with somewhat. I do think that many a reader can and do enjoy more complex stories. I think at the very least that the type of story and how it's presented should vary from title to tile. Deadpool doesn't have to be as complex as Daredevil, Spider-Man doesn't have to be as dark as The Punisher, and so on.


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Nitz the Bloody




I think that the most important thing a new comic with a lesser-known lead can do is to try to find a different audience. If we take the assumption that the best-selling comics in the direct market are read by an audience that's pretty much made up their mind as to what-- or who-- they're going to read, then instead of trying to dilute good ideas and stories to appeal to them, why not try for someone else?

For example; Runaways sold poorly in the direct market, but did well enough in young adult bookstore markets to warrant two renewals. The Marvel Adventures titles do well in digest and subscription forms when sold to children. The Annihilation/War of Kings books consolidated themselves into a universe effectively apart from the SHRA conspiracy stuff characterizing the more famous Earthbound books. And Moon Knight relaunched successfully as a project of respected crime/horror novelist Charlie Huston ( even if its stock dropped and led to its " hiatus " after Huston's departure ).

This also goes back to mjyoung's idea #2 of more focused tie-ins, except in this case I would make it " No Tie-Ins ". If these books are going to succeed, it's going to be on their own merits, and not as satellites to the conventional material.


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mjyoung





    Quote:
    I think that the most important thing a new comic with a lesser-known lead can do is to try to find a different audience. If we take the assumption that the best-selling comics in the direct market are read by an audience that's pretty much made up their mind as to what-- or who-- they're going to read, then instead of trying to dilute good ideas and stories to appeal to them, why not try for someone else?


It depends on what that different audience is, it has to be big enough to sustain an ongoing. If not, you are pigeon holding these to the point where they won't sell over 20K units ever.. You don't want to make survival harder for these books.

To use a similar idea, I think it's extremely important for each lower selling title to have it's own little niche in terms of story. Slott's SheHulk combined law and comedy into a superhero story. Hercules combines mythology and buddy comedy. But some books are just too generic here. what's the difference between Moon Knight, Punisher, and Daredevil? Or the difference between the New Warriors and the countless other teen teams?

And besides just being unique, it also has to be a good/popular niche. Captain Britain was unique in that it mixed British heroes and magic. But it wasn't necessarily popular. Same for SheHulk being a bounty hunter.

I think there are some good ideas, mixtures of niches and characters that can work. I think the Thing could have a good enough series if it was a "Marvel Team Up" book. I think the horror and magic characters could be a good mix.


    Quote:
    For example; Runaways sold poorly in the direct market, but did well enough in young adult bookstore markets to warrant two renewals. The Marvel Adventures titles do well in digest and subscription forms when sold to children. The Annihilation/War of Kings books consolidated themselves into a universe effectively apart from the SHRA conspiracy stuff characterizing the more famous Earthbound books. And Moon Knight relaunched successfully as a project of respected crime/horror novelist Charlie Huston ( even if its stock dropped and led to its " hiatus " after Huston's departure ).


Runaways and Marvel Adventures are an important exception. It's really aimed at the non-comic reading audience. It's hard for a book to get that outside comic audience for various reasons (price, comics seen as a nerdy, availability, etc), which can't be easily fixed. It's hard to aim Captain Britain at a non comic reading audience.

The primary reason MK failed was because Finch left.


    Quote:
    This also goes back to mjyoung's idea #2 of more focused tie-ins, except in this case I would make it " No Tie-Ins ". If these books are going to succeed, it's going to be on their own merits, and not as satellites to the conventional material.


It depends on the particular tie in. Tie ins do work to increase sales for the "long" term, but it has to be done right. In most cases, the tie ins are done very poorly. Titles like Incredible Herc and Deadpool have benefited tremendously from tieing in to the larger Marvel U. But Jason Aaron doing a three issue arc on Black Panther isn't going to increase sales.

But I would agree with something like Runaways. I don't think their monthly series should tie into Secret Invasion. But I do think that there should be a separate miniseries for their inclusion, like what was actually done. Same for the prestige books like JMS's Thor or Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.




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mjyoung





    Quote:
    I somewhat agree. I would amend this slightly to story arcs should vary in length depending on the subject manner and shouldn't be unnecessarily padded out just to fill out the trade. I don't think every storyline should be capped either though. For example, I think Oeming's Ragnarok arc is one of the few storylines that might have actually benefited from being longer. My own personal preference would story arcs w/ vary lengths of 2-6 issues(as well more done-in-ones sprinkled throughout).


I wasn't trying to make it an absolute statement. I think these writers have a tendency to fall into repeat behavior, creating a sort of death spiral for their books.


    Quote:
    This one I disagree with somewhat. I do think that many a reader can and do enjoy more complex stories. I think at the very least that the type of story and how it's presented should vary from title to tile. Deadpool doesn't have to be as complex as Daredevil, Spider-Man doesn't have to be as dark as The Punisher, and so on.


But at the point when the title is clearly low selling, you have to bring in new readers, and complex stories aren't going to do that. This is similar to the shorter story arcs idea.




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fan4





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think that the most important thing a new comic with a lesser-known lead can do is to try to find a different audience. If we take the assumption that the best-selling comics in the direct market are read by an audience that's pretty much made up their mind as to what-- or who-- they're going to read, then instead of trying to dilute good ideas and stories to appeal to them, why not try for someone else?



    Quote:
    It depends on what that different audience is, it has to be big enough to sustain an ongoing. If not, you are pigeon holding these to the point where they won't sell over 20K units ever.. You don't want to make survival harder for these books.



    Quote:
    To use a similar idea, I think it's extremely important for each lower selling title to have it's own little niche in terms of story. Slott's SheHulk combined law and comedy into a superhero story. Hercules combines mythology and buddy comedy. But some books are just too generic here. what's the difference between Moon Knight, Punisher, and Daredevil? Or the difference between the New Warriors and the countless other teen teams?



    Quote:
    And besides just being unique, it also has to be a good/popular niche. Captain Britain was unique in that it mixed British heroes and magic. But it wasn't necessarily popular. Same for SheHulk being a bounty hunter.



    Quote:
    I think there are some good ideas, mixtures of niches and characters that can work. I think the Thing could have a good enough series if it was a "Marvel Team Up" book. I think the horror and magic characters could be a good mix.


You mean "Marvel Two-In-One", don't you? MTU focuses on Spidey.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      For example; Runaways sold poorly in the direct market, but did well enough in young adult bookstore markets to warrant two renewals. The Marvel Adventures titles do well in digest and subscription forms when sold to children. The Annihilation/War of Kings books consolidated themselves into a universe effectively apart from the SHRA conspiracy stuff characterizing the more famous Earthbound books. And Moon Knight relaunched successfully as a project of respected crime/horror novelist Charlie Huston ( even if its stock dropped and led to its " hiatus " after Huston's departure ).



    Quote:
    Runaways and Marvel Adventures are an important exception. It's really aimed at the non-comic reading audience. It's hard for a book to get that outside comic audience for various reasons (price, comics seen as a nerdy, availability, etc), which can't be easily fixed. It's hard to aim Captain Britain at a non comic reading audience.



    Quote:
    The primary reason MK failed was because Finch left.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      This also goes back to mjyoung's idea #2 of more focused tie-ins, except in this case I would make it " No Tie-Ins ". If these books are going to succeed, it's going to be on their own merits, and not as satellites to the conventional material.



    Quote:
    It depends on the particular tie in. Tie ins do work to increase sales for the "long" term, but it has to be done right. In most cases, the tie ins are done very poorly. Titles like Incredible Herc and Deadpool have benefited tremendously from tieing in to the larger Marvel U. But Jason Aaron doing a three issue arc on Black Panther isn't going to increase sales.



    Quote:
    But I would agree with something like Runaways. I don't think their monthly series should tie into Secret Invasion. But I do think that there should be a separate miniseries for their inclusion, like what was actually done. Same for the prestige books like JMS's Thor or Whedon's Astonishing X-Men.





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mjyoung





    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think there are some good ideas, mixtures of niches and characters that can work. I think the Thing could have a good enough series if it was a "Marvel Team Up" book. I think the horror and magic characters could be a good mix.



    Quote:
    You mean "Marvel Two-In-One", don't you? MTU focuses on Spidey.


Well I was only using "MTU" to mean "team up of two heroes". I thought Marvel Team up was the better representation for that idea. The last two versions of MTU didn't feature Spider-Man as a character, but both went with the revolving two guest stars.

I think a Thing Team up title can work. Slott tried to do this somewhat on his run, but I think he made a few mistakes. Use the title to the clearer and more popular title "Marvel Team Up" so fans easily understand it's not a Thing solo series, but a team up book. Use more popular heroes (no Constrictor or Black Goliath), tell simplistic stories, etc.

I think there are really only 4 or so heroes who can do this kind of book: Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, and the Thing. You need a character that is popular with the fans, has a friendly attitude, has alot of connections to the other popular characters, etc.

It would be better to use a character with limited exposure currently, so probably not someone in the New Avengers or with multiple books.

With the Thing, you give the character and the FF more exposure, something both of them need. The FF has trouble branching out, with a second ongoing always having trouble (Slott's Thing, Tsunami Human Torch title, Fantastic Force, MK4).

The Thing isn't popular enough to carry a title on his name alone. So you've got to mix it up, and give him a better chance of success. You want to stay "true" to the character, so probably no "The Thing MAX" title. Another option for the character might be a "Human Torch and the Thing" buddy comedy book, but that has it's own risks.


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fan4





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I think there are some good ideas, mixtures of niches and characters that can work. I think the Thing could have a good enough series if it was a "Marvel Team Up" book. I think the horror and magic characters could be a good mix.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You mean "Marvel Two-In-One", don't you? MTU focuses on Spidey.



    Quote:
    Well I was only using "MTU" to mean "team up of two heroes". I thought Marvel Team up was the better representation for that idea. The last two versions of MTU didn't feature Spider-Man as a character, but both went with the revolving two guest stars.



    Quote:
    I think a Thing Team up title can work. Slott tried to do this somewhat on his run, but I think he made a few mistakes. Use the title to the clearer and more popular title "Marvel Team Up" so fans easily understand it's not a Thing solo series, but a team up book. Use more popular heroes (no Constrictor or Black Goliath), tell simplistic stories, etc.



    Quote:
    I think there are really only 4 or so heroes who can do this kind of book: Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, and the Thing. You need a character that is popular with the fans, has a friendly attitude, has alot of connections to the other popular characters, etc.



    Quote:
    It would be better to use a character with limited exposure currently, so probably not someone in the New Avengers or with multiple books.



    Quote:
    With the Thing, you give the character and the FF more exposure, something both of them need. The FF has trouble branching out, with a second ongoing always having trouble (Slott's Thing, Tsunami Human Torch title, Fantastic Force, MK4).



    Quote:
    The Thing isn't popular enough to carry a title on his name alone. So you've got to mix it up, and give him a better chance of success. You want to stay "true" to the character, so probably no "The Thing MAX" title. Another option for the character might be a "Human Torch and the Thing" buddy comedy book, but that has it's own risks.





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Jase





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I think there are some good ideas, mixtures of niches and characters that can work. I think the Thing could have a good enough series if it was a "Marvel Team Up" book. I think the horror and magic characters could be a good mix.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        You mean "Marvel Two-In-One", don't you? MTU focuses on Spidey.



    Quote:
    Well I was only using "MTU" to mean "team up of two heroes". I thought Marvel Team up was the better representation for that idea. The last two versions of MTU didn't feature Spider-Man as a character, but both went with the revolving two guest stars.



    Quote:
    I think a Thing Team up title can work. Slott tried to do this somewhat on his run, but I think he made a few mistakes. Use the title to the clearer and more popular title "Marvel Team Up" so fans easily understand it's not a Thing solo series, but a team up book. Use more popular heroes (no Constrictor or Black Goliath), tell simplistic stories, etc.



    Quote:
    I think there are really only 4 or so heroes who can do this kind of book: Spider-Man, Captain America, Wolverine, and the Thing. You need a character that is popular with the fans, has a friendly attitude, has alot of connections to the other popular characters, etc.



    Quote:
    It would be better to use a character with limited exposure currently, so probably not someone in the New Avengers or with multiple books.



    Quote:
    With the Thing, you give the character and the FF more exposure, something both of them need. The FF has trouble branching out, with a second ongoing always having trouble (Slott's Thing, Tsunami Human Torch title, Fantastic Force, MK4).


It doesn't help that a lot of those spin-offs were poorly executed. Slott's Thing series was actually pretty good, w/ a little tweaking(basically resurrecting the old MTiO but updating it for today) and more of a commitment from Marvel, we might still have a Thing title today.

With the Human Torch, it really didn't help that they tried to sell it under their poorly executed, so-called 'manga' line, and MK4 had to live down the stigma of being what Jemas wanted to replace Waid & Wieringo with.

As for Fantastic Force, I don't know about the new series, but the original didn't come out during a particularly good time for comics, and even the writer admits those were some bad comics.

I think if the Fantastic Four finds itself having trouble branching out with auxiliary books, it's because the FF as a concept doesn't lend itself well to having satellite books.


    Quote:
    The Thing isn't popular enough to carry a title on his name alone. So you've got to mix it up, and give him a better chance of success. You want to stay "true" to the character, so probably no "The Thing MAX" title. Another option for the character might be a "Human Torch and the Thing" buddy comedy book, but that has it's own risks.


Yeah, one of the primary being that you can get the same dynamic from the actual F4 title.



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mjyoung




That was a joke, I don't hate all women.

I don't hate you. We hardly interact. I've never said anything negative about you personally, nor have you said anything negative about me. Even if I've disagreed with you, it doesn't mean I hate you.

I'm quite neutral towards you.

You tend to exaggerate our relationship. Once, you've said to me that "I'm never responding to you again", for no apparent reason at all.

I'm honestly perplexed by your attitude towards me.



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fan4





    Quote:
    That was a joke, I don't hate all women.



    Quote:
    I don't hate you. We hardly interact. I've never said anything negative about you personally, nor have you said anything negative about me. Even if I've disagreed with you, it doesn't mean I hate you.


That's the point though....you.always.disagree.with.me.

I'm perfectly well aware that Slott's solo series tanked. You didn't have to rub my nose into again, when mentioning that you enjoyed MTU better than MTIO.


    Quote:
    I'm quite neutral towards you.



    Quote:
    You tend to exaggerate our relationship. Once, you've said to me that "I'm never responding to you again", for no apparent reason at all.



    Quote:
    I'm honestly perplexed by your attitude towards me.





Posted with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7 on Windows Vista
mjyoung





    Quote:

      Quote:
      That was a joke, I don't hate all women.

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I don't hate you. We hardly interact. I've never said anything negative about you personally, nor have you said anything negative about me. Even if I've disagreed with you, it doesn't mean I hate you.



    Quote:
    That's the point though....you.always.disagree.with.me.


That's not the point. Even if I did disagree with you about everything, it still doesn't mean I hate you.

And I don't disagree with you about everything. We hardly interact. I never really respond to your posts, or you with mine. We simply don't interact much.


    Quote:
    I'm perfectly well aware that Slott's solo series tanked. You didn't have to rub my nose into again, when mentioning that you enjoyed MTU better than MTIO.


How am I rubbing your nose in it? I like Slott's series.

I never read any of the MTU or MTIO issues, so I'm not comparing their quality.

You are seeing things that simply do not exist.


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