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Silver




Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I picked up the new Heroes for Hire series today and was not pleased at all.

While I liked the idea of Misty Knight being a handler for random Marvel "Heroes", and I enjoyed reading the interactions and how well the whole story was written, and the fact that an introductory mission could actually be completed in the first issue of a series, that's where it all ends for me.

Not giving the full details of my problem with this series, since I don't feel like saving everyone 4 dollars tonight, but I will say this: turns out Misty has a mysterious associate feeding her information for her new setup, and in a move that makes me seriously doubt whether I'll buy issue 2, Marvel decides to reveal who it is and how that person is connected to Misty's new setup. They really should have waited a few months to ruin this book by revealing this secret.

Too bad Marvel wasted what I thought was a good story idea. I highly doubt this series will make it into double digit issues.


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Best comic of the month!

They maybe could have waited for the reveal, but it's all good. It just makes me wonder how he's still alive.

Can't wait until next issue.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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mjyoung




I've only read the spoilers, but haven't gotten the issue. While in general it seems like a good idea, I think poor character selection will kill this title.


    Quote:
    While I liked the idea of Misty Knight being a handler for random Marvel "Heroes", and I enjoyed reading the interactions and how well the whole story was written, and the fact that an introductory mission could actually be completed in the first issue of a series, that's where it all ends for me.


I hate the fact that the character is so prominent, is there really a great demand for the character? She is the central character to the title, yet hasn't proven herself as a marketable character that fans care about. She led the last incarnation of HFH which failed pretty quickly. I can't recall her ever carrying a story by herself. At least Colleen Wing got a tie in series with Shadowland while Misty Knight was a part of a multicharacter series also in Shadowland.

Its set up so that she tells the readers that she's doing this because she has a lot of favors to cash in with the various superheroes, but she's never really been that kind of character. It appears that they are giving her some never before seen history where she is making all these friends. I can't recall her ever really interacting with the Falcon, and while I'm sure she has at some point, it's never been an important scene/story. She's also never really been that type of Oracle (at DC) character that is a good manager and leader of other superheroes. She's always been the fighter.

It just feels like there could have been a better choice for this type of system instead of Misty Knight. My instant thought is that this would have been a great role for Pepper Potts. New movie star character, and this would have been a better way to expose the character than making her needless Iron Man spinoff. She creates an organization that hires heroes which is backed by Tony Stark. With him you get the money, the intel, and the connections to other heroes. She's also had a history of being the "woman behind the heroes", with her past work with Iron Man and especially the Order.

Also, if they are going to go with the Heroes for Hire aspect of calling various heroes up to do specific tasks, couldn't you choose more popular heroes than the ones that are appearing? It's obviously going to struggle in sales, so why not make limited use of characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?


    Quote:
    Too bad Marvel wasted what I thought was a good story idea. I highly doubt this series will make it into double digit issues.


Over or under 12 issues? Without seeing the first issue sales, I think the title has a good chance of making it to 12 issues, but I don't see how it can last much longer than that.

The main reason why you do a HFH title is because you want to use Luke and Danny. I really don't see why Marvel just continues to refuse to put those two characters together in this type of title? The basic premise of New Avengers right now is Luke collecting a bunch of his friends together to be a team, why not just incorporate that into a HFH title. It really seems like the new HFH title is just a cheaper version of the New Avengers.



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    Quote:
    I've only read the spoilers, but haven't gotten the issue. While in general it seems like a good idea, I think poor character selection will kill this title.


I hope not. DnA showed in Guardians of the Galaxy that they could take obscure characters and make them gold. That aspect of the new H4H is what I'm most looking forward to.

Who all is going to be their Rocket Raccoon and Groot this time? I've never liked Warlock either until they gave him the unusual space-magic angle in GoTG.

(I haven't read the issue yet)



    Quote:
    Its set up so that she tells the readers that she's doing this because she has a lot of favors to cash in with the various superheroes, but she's never really been that kind of character. It appears that they are giving her some never before seen history where she is making all these friends. I can't recall her ever really interacting with the Falcon, and while I'm sure she has at some point, it's never been an important scene/story. She's also never really been that type of Oracle (at DC) character that is a good manager and leader of other superheroes. She's always been the fighter.


Misty did the leading in the last H4H incarnation, didn't she?

The only flaw with Knight and Wing is that they don't quite have snazzy enough superheroic identities. (no code names or unique powers) But their characterizations and interactions with other heroes are great.

Misty's new arm can do some cool stuff now, I suppose. I'd like Colleen to get some sort of quirky magic weapon to set her apart from other ninja types.




    Quote:
    It just feels like there could have been a better choice for this type of system instead of Misty Knight. My instant thought is that this would have been a great role for Pepper Potts. New movie star character, and this would have been a better way to expose the character than making her needless Iron Man spinoff. She creates an organization that hires heroes which is backed by Tony Stark. With him you get the money, the intel, and the connections to other heroes. She's also had a history of being the "woman behind the heroes", with her past work with Iron Man and especially the Order.


I think Misty is way more interesting than Pepper, but then, being a team book reader, I haven't digested a ton of Iron-Man solo stuff.




    Quote:
    Also, if they are going to go with the Heroes for Hire aspect of calling various heroes up to do specific tasks, couldn't you choose more popular heroes than the ones that are appearing? It's obviously going to struggle in sales, so why not make limited use of characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?


Oh please no. NO NO NO. We get way too much Spiderman and Wolverine already! And keep Deadpool very far away!

Ghost Rider is high profile enough for me.

I'm way more excited about Satanna being called in soon than I ever would be about seeing Wolverine.



    Quote:
    The main reason why you do a HFH title is because you want to use Luke and Danny. I really don't see why Marvel just continues to refuse to put those two characters together in this type of title? The basic premise of New Avengers right now is Luke collecting a bunch of his friends together to be a team, why not just incorporate that into a HFH title. It really seems like the new HFH title is just a cheaper version of the New Avengers.


I agree with you here, but I look at it the other way around. Bendis has turned the New Avengers into what should be Heroes For Hire. It's been that way for a long time. That's not the fault of this book though.

I fully expect this title to feel more Avengery than New Avengers. GoTG and even Nova often felt more Avengery than New Avengers. The Thanos Imperative definitely did.

What really should happen is that DnA should be given the Avengers to write, and Bendis should be doing Heroes For Hire so that he can use the characters he has the best affinity for, with them fitting the title just right.

Luke, Danny, Jessica, Echo, Daredevil, and RandomPersonWearingRonin outfit are all perfect for a H4H team, and like you say, Danny and Luke are the quintessential folks you think of when you see the title "Heroes For Hire".


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mjyoung





    Quote:
    I hope not. DnA showed in Guardians of the Galaxy that they could take obscure characters and make them gold. That aspect of the new H4H is what I'm most looking forward to.


But using obscure characters usually leads to cancellation. And interestingly enough, Groot and Rocket Raccon were introduced to the current cosmic titles in the Conquest Starlord miniseries by a writer other than DnA.


    Quote:
    Misty did the leading in the last H4H incarnation, didn't she?


I beleive so. But then she was actually leading a team instead of secretly managing a collection of heroes behind the scenes. She just seems more fit to be one of the agents instead of a coordinator. Is she Marvel's version of Oracle?


    Quote:
    The only flaw with Knight and Wing is that they don't quite have snazzy enough superheroic identities. (no code names or unique powers) But their characterizations and interactions with other heroes are great.


They have more flaws than that. One is a severe lack of characterization, while readers may know who they are, they don't know much about their personalities. Misty is a tough black woman, and Colleen is a silent ninja type? Not exactly original. The best thing for these characters would be for Marvel to set them up in their classic status quo (Daughters of the Dragon investigations), and let readers get to know them as characters. I remember really liking the DotD miniseries from a few years ago.


    Quote:
    I think Misty is way more interesting than Pepper, but then, being a team book reader, I haven't digested a ton of Iron-Man solo stuff.


I think Misty is a C-lister that makes a couple of appearances every few years, while Pepper is a supporting character for a now very popular hero. In charge, Pepper would be the one I would be exploiting outside of the Iron Man titles. Instead they decided to make her Iron Woman.

Anyone else find it weird that the central character in the title isn't even on the cover? And characters that don't make an appearance in the first issue are?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Also, if they are going to go with the Heroes for Hire aspect of calling various heroes up to do specific tasks, couldn't you choose more popular heroes than the ones that are appearing? It's obviously going to struggle in sales, so why not make limited use of characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?



    Quote:
    Oh please no. NO NO NO. We get way too much Spiderman and Wolverine already! And keep Deadpool very far away!


They are very popular characters, and readers who like them may not be reading their current titles. It's the JLA effect, where readers can get one title a month and get all their favorite characters. Is Wolverine in 8 pages going to kill your interest in the title? Probably not. Get him in and get him out. Still use B-listers like Falcon and Moon Knight, but don't use C-listers like Paladin or Silver Sable.


    Quote:
    I agree with you here, but I look at it the other way around. Bendis has turned the New Avengers into what should be Heroes For Hire. It's been that way for a long time. That's not the fault of this book though.


I blame Marvel. HFH could be the team that features the buddies of Luke Cage, and New Avengers would just be Steve Rogers street level Avengers team. Instead NA is Luke's team, which I personally don't like as much.


    Quote:
    What really should happen is that DnA should be given the Avengers to write, and Bendis should be doing Heroes For Hire so that he can use the characters he has the best affinity for, with them fitting the title just right.


DnA doesn't have the prominence to take over an Avengers title. Those big titles have to be earned with sales. So now DnA will just linger from title to title. They could possibly get a secondary X-Men team like the New Mutants.




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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


The idea behind this book seems to be using all of the "Marvel Knights" characters that seem to be floundering on their own. Marvel seems to be hoping that their fans will follow them to create a series that sells enough. I don't think that's going to work because I think they all have the same fans. But throw in DnA's popularity, and it might work.

I don't see Pepper Potts doing anything like this. This is street stuff. She's not as interesting of a character as Misty, either, so I'm glad of that. I also consider Misty to be bigger than Colleen. There's another way to look at that Shadowland thing: Misty was part of the main attraction, but Colleen was part of a secondary story.

However, I do hope Misty doesn't stay on the sidelines. I hope this phantom pregnancy ends quickly. Keep in mind that this "Oracle" stuff doesn't seem to be her plan. When the first arc is done, there is liable to be a change.

No, you probably couldn't call up more popular heroes. More popular heroes aren't likely to do this kind of work.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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mjyoung





    Quote:
    The idea behind this book seems to be using all of the "Marvel Knights" characters that seem to be floundering on their own. Marvel seems to be hoping that their fans will follow them to create a series that sells enough. I don't think that's going to work because I think they all have the same fans. But throw in DnA's popularity, and it might work.


What popularity? They are 20K sellers.

It's hard to understand Marvel's logic here. I don't think they are banking on specific characters, since the title doesn't seem to have a stable cast. Is Falcon a team member or just going to make an occasional appearance? One of the ideas behind the series is that specific characters are going to rotate in and out of a story. So why would a fan of the Falcon stick around when the character makes an appearance every few issues? A title needs to have consistency with it's characters. The book needs a core.

Marvel seems to be banking on the HFH brand and the idea that these types of characters can support a monthly book as a loose team. But it's not going to work.


    Quote:
    I don't see Pepper Potts doing anything like this. This is street stuff. She's not as interesting of a character as Misty, either, so I'm glad of that. I also consider Misty to be bigger than Colleen. There's another way to look at that Shadowland thing: Misty was part of the main attraction, but Colleen was part of a secondary story.


Well I think Potts had the same role in the Order. And again, with Potts' movie success this is the time to try to branch her out from being directly tied to Iron Man. Plus this gives you a title that's associated with the Iron Man brand, instead of doing titles like Iron Man Legacy or Iron Man 2.0.

I don't remember Misty having a prominent role in the main Shadowland event, but she was a co-star in the Blood on the Streets mini series, while Collen got her own title in the Daughters of the Shadow.


    Quote:
    However, I do hope Misty doesn't stay on the sidelines. I hope this phantom pregnancy ends quickly. Keep in mind that this "Oracle" stuff doesn't seem to be her plan. When the first arc is done, there is liable to be a change.


But the idea that she's behind the scenes is the whole reason for their being a title, how it separates itself from other similar teams and titles. Are they really going to change it after the first arc?


    Quote:
    No, you probably couldn't call up more popular heroes. More popular heroes aren't likely to do this kind of work.


Why not? If you call up Wolverine, is he really not going to help? Deadpool is already takes jobs for money. As far as motivations go, I don't see a difference between the Falcon and Spider-Man.




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stupid baby




who is it?
who is it?
I dont mind if you give me spoilers.
who is this associate?
you wonder how who is still alive?


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    Quote:

      Quote:
      I hope not. DnA showed in Guardians of the Galaxy that they could take obscure characters and make them gold. That aspect of the new H4H is what I'm most looking forward to.



    Quote:
    But using obscure characters usually leads to cancellation. And interestingly enough, Groot and Rocket Raccon were introduced to the current cosmic titles in the Conquest Starlord miniseries by a writer other than DnA.



I'd need to dig through my back issues to make sure, but IIRC, it wasn't until they were in the Guardians book that Rocket really shone for me personally. That Starlord mini was just okay.

Did you read the Guardians issue where Maximus of the Inhumans claimed to understand Groot? That was hysterical.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Misty did the leading in the last H4H incarnation, didn't she?



    Quote:
    I beleive so. But then she was actually leading a team instead of secretly managing a collection of heroes behind the scenes. She just seems more fit to be one of the agents instead of a coordinator. Is she Marvel's version of Oracle?


I need to get going and snag the actual comic. I agree that in the preview pages I saw, she seemed to definitely be doing an Oracle impression.




    Quote:

      Quote:
      The only flaw with Knight and Wing is that they don't quite have snazzy enough superheroic identities. (no code names or unique powers) But their characterizations and interactions with other heroes are great.



    Quote:
    They have more flaws than that. One is a severe lack of characterization, while readers may know who they are, they don't know much about their personalities. Misty is a tough black woman, and Colleen is a silent ninja type? Not exactly original. The best thing for these characters would be for Marvel to set them up in their classic status quo (Daughters of the Dragon investigations), and let readers get to know them as characters. I remember really liking the DotD miniseries from a few years ago.


Yeah, the Daughters of the Dragon mini was much better than the Heroes for Hire book which followed right after that.



    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Also, if they are going to go with the Heroes for Hire aspect of calling various heroes up to do specific tasks, couldn't you choose more popular heroes than the ones that are appearing? It's obviously going to struggle in sales, so why not make limited use of characters like Spider-Man and Wolverine?

      Quote:

        Quote:
        Oh please no. NO NO NO. We get way too much Spiderman and Wolverine already! And keep Deadpool very far away!



    Quote:
    They are very popular characters, and readers who like them may not be reading their current titles. It's the JLA effect, where readers can get one title a month and get all their favorite characters. Is Wolverine in 8 pages going to kill your interest in the title? Probably not. Get him in and get him out. Still use B-listers like Falcon and Moon Knight, but don't use C-listers like Paladin or Silver Sable.


I prefer Paladin to Moon Knight, but that's just me.

Since I'm so irritated with him being on the Avengers, I think Wolverine for 8 pages actually would kill my interest. Spidey in small doses wouldn't be a deal breaker though.




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I agree with you here, but I look at it the other way around. Bendis has turned the New Avengers into what should be Heroes For Hire. It's been that way for a long time. That's not the fault of this book though.



    Quote:
    I blame Marvel. HFH could be the team that features the buddies of Luke Cage, and New Avengers would just be Steve Rogers street level Avengers team. Instead NA is Luke's team, which I personally don't like as much.


Agreed.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      What really should happen is that DnA should be given the Avengers to write, and Bendis should be doing Heroes For Hire so that he can use the characters he has the best affinity for, with them fitting the title just right.



    Quote:
    DnA doesn't have the prominence to take over an Avengers title. Those big titles have to be earned with sales. So now DnA will just linger from title to title. They could possibly get a secondary X-Men team like the New Mutants.


I think they'd do a fantastic Avengers book.

And I don't know if he's a big enough name for you, but Christos Gage from the Initiative and Avengers Academy deserves a shot at the actual Avengers too.

Both of those would be miles better than Bendis' Avengers.


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Silver




been reading the comments and other than Black Guardian, everyone else is only commenting on the free preview pages that were released, when the last 2-3 pages are the real comment worthy stuff, changes how you look at the series, one way or another




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mjyoung





    Quote:
    been reading the comments and other than Black Guardian, everyone else is only commenting on the free preview pages that were released, when the last 2-3 pages are the real comment worthy stuff, changes how you look at the series, one way or another


I read the spoilers, does that count?

First issue sales will probably be in the 30 to 35K range. The Shadowland Blood on the streets miniseries, which this spins out from and has a similar cast of characters, debuted at 22K. The Thanos Imperative debuted at 35K. Assuming 30K sales for the first issue and standard dropsoffs of 20% for the second issue puts that at 24K, and a 10% drop puts the third issue at 21.5K. So the question really becomes does this book last 6 issues? The same trend happened to Black Widow and Hawkeye and Mockingbird, and those titles are pretty much canceled.

Marvel really needs to re-evaluate their publishing strategies for their titles. Over saturation of the market is really hurting their titles.


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Abe


Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,977


I read it and I'll admit it's not as good as the first two volumes of Heroes For Hire.
The first volume being Power Man & Iron Fist.

Make this title fun (like Ostrander's H4H) and I'll stick around.
And if they're going for obscure characters which no one really cares about, why not put Mort The Dead Teenager in there? Amp him up for the new generation. \:\)


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emerick-man

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





I miss you, Dan. I miss you, Dad. I miss you, Dan.
I miss you, Dad & Dan. I miss you Dad and Dan. Support Cancer Research.
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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008





City of Heroes is BACK!
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