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Hmmm




Personally, I feel he stopped being so by "Unthinkable", if not earlier. Frankly "Unthinkable" seemed like a symptom of the character's exhaustion rather than his actual shark jump moment. Is he still the coolest, and if so, why? Try to keep the evidence from within the last, say, fifteen years.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Personally, I feel he stopped being so by "Unthinkable", if not earlier. Frankly "Unthinkable" seemed like a symptom of the character's exhaustion rather than his actual shark jump moment. Is he still the coolest, and if so, why? Try to keep the evidence from within the last, say, fifteen years.


My first experience with the character was Fantastic Four #350...which utterly turned me off the character for all time. I've never been able to understand the appeal of the character.

Personally I think the coolest is Baron Helmut Zemo. Sure he may wear magenta leather masks and frilly boots. Maybe he doesn't eat peoples brains, he isn't a god, he doesn't have fancy powers, he can't turn a paperclip into a projectile, he doesn't have mastery over the dark arts...no all Helmut has to rely on is his brain and his tenacity.

Helmut is IMO the ultimate survivor. He was abused by his father, his mother died, he lost his family wealth, his country was in ruins but still he soldiered on and became an engineer until seeing Cap the man who disfigured his father (and thus turned Heinrich into an abuser) began making headlines. He takes on the identity of the Phoenix and falls into a vat of adhesive X horribly disfiguring his face. Later he was nearly enviscerated by Vermin, given an aneurysm by Mother Superior, fell off the roof of Avengers mansion breaking his neck, buring his hand falling into a volcano, beaten to a pulp by Moonstone, having his head chopped off by Scourge, the death of his wife and the loss of his adopted children...yet he always comes back hungry for more and comes up with schemes like taking the heroes place after Onslaught or seizing Avengers mansion or ruling Counter Earth or seizing the powers of every superbeing on the planet to protect it from the Grandmaster.

To me there is something about him that sets him apart from all the other villains. He's a man of profound contradictions. He's been a father, a son, a husband, an engineer, a hero, a villain, he's been rich, he's been poor, he's been handsome, he's been disfigured...through it all he's grown along the way.

He was right to take Phoenix as his first codename. Helmut always rises from the ashes only to reinvent himself and scheme anew.




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TJ Burns





Despite Doom's general abuse for the past few years, it's my opinion that he is still Marvel's most well-developed and coolest villain. Nobody else has managed to maintain the level of complexity and characterization Doom has without a turn toward being the hero, like Zemo did.


TJB


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TJ Burns





OUCH... you have my condolences for that one. FF #350 is an excellent Doom appearance, but only in context. Left to its own like that, I can see your point.

Zemo's a favorite of mine too, but I don't see him as a villain, myself.


TJB


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Sleepwalker




That is true...Marvel has had a large number of their long standing villains drift toward heroism....Juggernaut, Zemo, Mags...heck even Apocalypse was much more heroic in his last appearance. But at no point have I ever thought that either Doom or Kang were on the side of angels.


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Reverend Meteor





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    OUCH... you have my condolences for that one. FF #350 is an excellent Doom appearance, but only in context. Left to its own like that, I can see your point.



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    Zemo's a favorite of mine too, but I don't see him as a villain, myself.


It struck me as Doom has an automatic out every time he is defeated...he can just blame the defeat on the Doombot...not the makings of a compelling villain IMO. I just don't see anything that makes him complex. Ostensibly he cares about his people but he's screwed them over without a second thought several times. He supposedly wants to conquer the world to make it a better place but when ever he gets absolute power or a position of global authority (like say when he ruled Counter Earth) he gets bored with his prize fairly quickly. He claims his word is his bond but he frequently gives his word and breaks it. He doesn't have friends or lovers or family that are important to him...he raised Kristoff because he owed him because of his mother's death at the hands of his robots but he's tried to kill him before...oh wait that was a doombot....his motivations can't even stay consistent on account of those robots.

To me Dr. Doom is the generic mustache twirling villain who ties the maiden to the train tracks. He's Snidely Whiplash. Seriously I want someone to convince me I'm wrong...I know he has his supporters here...someone please tell me why he's cool...because I just don't get it.

As for Helmut...I don't see him as a villain either. Not a hero. Not a villain. He transcends both labels. Maybe he's an anti-villain?

One thing that used to annoy me in the early years of Thunderbolts was the idea that we the fans were supposed to assume Helmut and Norbert (Fixer/Techno) were evil and just write them off as irredeemable. To me these were the two characters I saw myself in and I don't like thinking I'm irredeemable. Helmut's first appearance always stood out for me...he got into the villain game because he loved his abusive father and blamed his being abused as a child on Cap disfiguring Heinrich...and maybe Cap was right to stop Heinrich but it still destroyed Helmut's childhood. This was a guy who loved and had faith in his father despite the abuse he lived through. To me someone who can love that much to the point it defies logic can't totally be evil...he was damaged sure. But to me there was always something about Helmut...something worth saving instead of just writing him off as an irredeemable monster. Heck he was nearly killed because he defied the Red Skull and that was pre-tbolts. Cap knew he was just mixed up the first time they fought. I always felt if Helmut hadn't been disfigured in that first battle Cap could have talked some sense into him.

Whenever I think of Helmut I think of Wernher Von Braun. He was a nazi. He saw thousands of jews worked to death at Mittlewerk to build his rockets. But he was brilliant. Without him we Americans wouldn't have the Saturn V rocket and been able to put men on the moon. To me Helmut is a horrible person who is too brilliant just to execute because he's "evil"...he has the brains to really contribute something worthwhile to the world. It's better to have him on the side of good doing something to contribute than marginalizing him as a villain.




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FirstChAoS




Honestly I never seen an appearance of doom that to me felt cool.

His arrogance and bluster always outstrip his actual ability. When you mix in his habit of overly alliterative insults he comes off as cartoonish and buffoonish.

Their have been many villains whose stories made me think "how are the heros ever going to be able to overcome that scheme." but never with doom.

Maybe it is because I never got into FF and his is mostly a Fantastic Four foe. But every Doom appearance I have seen left me with the impression that his bluster and arrogance vastle outstrip his abilities. Only his being a national leader and having political power makes him a worthwhile threat.

I never seen a story that makes him use his much vaunted intelligence in a way that makes me think "he is smart" sure he invented a time machine, but i never seen him use smarts in battle. He always just strives for the super weapon of the week and fails due to arrogance. All bluff and bluster.


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AssemblyRequired






    Quote:
    Heck he was nearly killed because he defied the Red Skull and that was pre-tbolts.


When was this, and what were they fighting over?


I miss the early Thunderbolts issues. That was as good of a premise as you could have for a comic. Plus great characters and plotlines spinning out of the premise.

Too often nowadays, the "big ideas" writers go with do more tearing down of characters than anything else. Thunderbolts built quite a few characters way up.

Fixer was extremely interesting because he was capable of doing anything really, both good and bad.


What did you think of Zemo's recent Captain America appearances?


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Reverend Meteor





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      Quote:
      Heck he was nearly killed because he defied the Red Skull and that was pre-tbolts.



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    When was this, and what were they fighting over?


Around Captain America #300. Helmut was a part of the Red Skull's plan and later turned against him and his daughter...he got a mind blast from Mother Superior that nearly killed him.

The thing that struck me was Helmut's love for his parents was his reason for defying them.


    Quote:

    I miss the early Thunderbolts issues. That was as good of a premise as you could have for a comic. Plus great characters and plotlines spinning out of the premise.





    Quote:
    Too often nowadays, the "big ideas" writers go with do more tearing down of characters than anything else. Thunderbolts built quite a few characters way up.



    Quote:
    Fixer was extremely interesting because he was capable of doing anything really, both good and bad.


Yeah to me Fixer isn't good or evil. He's indifferent. To me that makes him fairly unique considering he has been a hero and a villain and everything in between.


    Quote:

    What did you think of Zemo's recent Captain America appearances?


When I read the writer's take on Helmut in an interview before those appearances happened I was worried. I don't like the idea of him being a true bad guy again but I liked that he still had some grey area in that story. I prefer him in Thunderbolts.


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Chris1962


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I have always liked Doom. The original origin story in FF Anunal # 2 by Lee and Kirby was great and one of my all time favorites. When the recent version of "Bring on the Bad Guys" came out, I was disappointed that Doom's story was the Byrne version that came out in the eighties. Since Byrne left the FF in 1986, the FF and related characters like Doom have not gotten the treatment that X-Men, Spider-Man, and Avengers titles have gotten over the last twenty years. Being older, I remember very good Doom-related stories from the sixties all the way up to 1985. Villians like Magneto, Bullseye, Green Goblin/Osbourne, Venom (who I never liked), Kingpin, and others who do not come immediately to mind have gotten the bigger spotlight since 1986.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    Honestly I never seen an appearance of doom that to me felt cool.



    Quote:
    His arrogance and bluster always outstrip his actual ability. When you mix in his habit of overly alliterative insults he comes off as cartoonish and buffoonish.


To me he's a great archetype...most villains are a rip off of Victor (even Helmut) but as a character in his own right he falls flat. To me writers have been able to do a lot more with characters inspired by Dr. Doom than anyone ever has writing the real deal. I just wish we could drop Victor off at the retirement home.


    Quote:
    Their have been many villains whose stories made me think "how are the heros ever going to be able to overcome that scheme." but never with doom.



    Quote:
    Maybe it is because I never got into FF and his is mostly a Fantastic Four foe. But every Doom appearance I have seen left me with the impression that his bluster and arrogance vastle outstrip his abilities. Only his being a national leader and having political power makes him a worthwhile threat.


I have tons of their appearances but I can't say I was ever a huge fan of the FF either. I guess I can't enjoy a team dynamic with only four people. Plus with the exception of the Thing they seem too smug and self involved for my tastes.

To me Doom is his own worst enemy. He gets in his own way far too often. If he percieves an insult he flies off the handle. For someone so intelligent he isn't very rational or patient.


    Quote:
    I never seen a story that makes him use his much vaunted intelligence in a way that makes me think "he is smart" sure he invented a time machine, but i never seen him use smarts in battle. He always just strives for the super weapon of the week and fails due to arrogance. All bluff and bluster.


My problem with him is that to make the point that he's smart it seems like everyone else drops a hundred IQ points when dealing with him. "oh sure we'll team up with you to stop this bigger threat because we know your word is your bond except for the last 100 times you betrayed us when you gave us your word...we're sure you mean it this time" and then eventually he's all "bwahahaha you fools never expected me to betray you for the 101st time but I have, all because you underestimated the sheer genius that is Doom" or some such.


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bd2999

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Personally, I feel he stopped being so by "Unthinkable", if not earlier. Frankly "Unthinkable" seemed like a symptom of the character's exhaustion rather than his actual shark jump moment. Is he still the coolest, and if so, why? Try to keep the evidence from within the last, say, fifteen years.


I actually liked Unthinkable. And I think Doom is marvels premier villan. He is not the most powerful, but he is always a threat. And it was proven against in Doom War. He has had numerous bad, or stupid showings, but at the same time consider that he has been in more books than some heros have. That is a pretty good run.

I have always been drawn to Doom. The intellect, arrogance, cunning, honor and combining magic and science. Just really cool.




Look Raist bunnies...
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