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jwmccay3




Okay, so let me first off state that Heroes Reborn did stink like last month's garbage, but I do have to say that the Marvel Universe that remained might have been better had there been new incarnations of the teams that were wiped out and could have set up interesting storylines when the original heroes returned.

Yes, I know that we got Thunderbolts out of the deal and that the original concept was awesome. We also got an underrated Quicksilver book, a new Heroes for Hire, Elektra, and Ka-Zar out of the situation. I know that Thunderbolts needed the hero vacuum for the series to really catch on, but I also think that it would have been interesting to see new incarnations of the classic teams.

So, I would like to pose a few questions to you fans who suffered through that era of Marvel bankruptcy, both in terms of fiscal responsibility and comic book publishing:
1) If they did a new Avengers and a new Fantastic Four book set in the Marvel Universe proper (616), which survivors would you place on the teams?
2) Was the concept of a "Heroes for Hire" team the wrong book at the wrong place in the wrong time and set up to fail immediately simply because you had all these heroes who supposedly sacrificed their lives against a bigger threat?
3) Did they reveal the T-bolts secret too early?
4) Were there enough heroes killed off by Onslaught?


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Daveym

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    Okay, so let me first off state that Heroes Reborn did stink like last month's garbage, but I do have to say that the Marvel Universe that remained might have been better had there been new incarnations of the teams that were wiped out and could have set up interesting storylines when the original heroes returned.


I wouldn't go so far as to say the Heroes Reborn titles "stunk", both Iron Man and Fantastic Four were commendable relaunches that felt very fresh and energentic, it was more the Rob Liefeld books that let the side down, though if you were new I think you might have embraced even these two books as well as the rest. I think on reflection the Heroes Reborn experiement was highly influential as it showed what these old characters could be like if brought right up to date and launched afresh with no baggage. I don't think it's an exaggeration to suggest the Ultimate universe is indebted to what Jim Lee, Whilce Portacio & Liefeld tried out back then...

Looking back to the effects on the Marvel Universe itself though you do get the imppression the extraction of their premier Avengers line up should have led to a major shift in the X-Men's role therein. Once second tier to the Avengers they ere now left as the premier heroic force on earth, the likes of Magneto and Apocalypse would not have to worry about any Avengers interfering and would have felt the way was wide open for a major move on taking global power. So in effect it would be the X-Men under even more pressure than before as earth's mightiest deterrent had all been killed off in one stroke thanks to Onslaught. I never felt the ramifications of that were exploited as they could have been. For another example - The Hulk. A new and much more unpredictable Hulk had been left behind, dangerous in the sense he had no moral compass guiding him any more and was happy to indulge his appetite for power to its full extent, taking over the Florida Keys was one expression of that but you get the sense from that run that he was nearer a villain than any other incarnation bar The Maestro. He was another dangerous legacy of the expulsion of earths greatest heroes as there was no one left who could really stand up to him if he went on a sustained rampage or crusade...

In restrospect it is hard to understand perhaps why it wasn't the case a new Avengers took the place of their fallen comrades, I think Wonderman was still active for example and we know Black Widow Hank Pym and Monica Rambeu were around so a new line up was perfectly feasable. Who knows, if there was an event big enough maybe the threat would have triggered a new team, but Heroes Reborn only lasted over a year in real time.



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USAgentfan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623





    Quote:
    I wouldn't go so far as to say the Heroes Reborn titles "stunk", both Iron Man and Fantastic Four were commendable relaunches that felt very fresh and energentic, it was more the Rob Liefeld books that let the side down, though if you were new I think you might have embraced even these two books as well as the rest. I think on reflection the Heroes Reborn experiement was highly influential as it showed what these old characters could be like if brought right up to date and launched afresh with no baggage. I don't think it's an exaggeration to suggest the Ultimate universe is indebted to what Jim Lee, Whilce Portacio & Liefeld tried out back then...


They werent the best - even Ironman and Fantastic 4 - although it is true to say that Avengers and Cap were the worst. Why they took the excellent Waid and Garney off the Cap title in order to replace them with Liefeld I will never know.


    Quote:
    Looking back to the effects on the Marvel Universe itself though you do get the imppression the extraction of their premier Avengers line up should have led to a major shift in the X-Men's role therein. Once second tier to the Avengers they ere now left as the premier heroic force on earth, the likes of Magneto and Apocalypse would not have to worry about any Avengers interfering and would have felt the way was wide open for a major move on taking global power. So in effect it would be the X-Men under even more pressure than before as earth's mightiest deterrent had all been killed off in one stroke thanks to Onslaught. I never felt the ramifications of that were exploited as they could have been. For another example - The Hulk. A new and much more unpredictable Hulk had been left behind, dangerous in the sense he had no moral compass guiding him any more and was happy to indulge his appetite for power to its full extent, taking over the Florida Keys was one expression of that but you get the sense from that run that he was nearer a villain than any other incarnation bar The Maestro. He was another dangerous legacy of the expulsion of earths greatest heroes as there was no one left who could really stand up to him if he went on a sustained rampage or crusade...


The absence of the Avengers really didnt seem to have much of a knock-on effect for the rest of the worlds heroes, especially the X-Men who just seemed to carry on dealing with their own little introverted world in the way they always had. It would have been an excellent opportunity to have the Avengers/X-Men type team ups we are seeing now.


    Quote:
    In restrospect it is hard to understand perhaps why it wasn't the case a new Avengers took the place of their fallen comrades, I think Wonderman was still active for example and we know Black Widow Hank Pym and Monica Rambeu were around so a new line up was perfectly feasable. Who knows, if there was an event big enough maybe the threat would have triggered a new team, but Heroes Reborn only lasted over a year in real time.


There was an explanation for this. I believe Black Widow was Avengers chairperson at the time of their 'death', and whilst she tried to hold the team together it was simply beyond her to do so, and many of the surviving Avengers moral was so low that they didnt have the will to carry on the legacy.

Although there were obviously many Avengers left after Onslaught, they were a shadow of their former selves and many of those remaining members had problems of their own. Wonderman was dead (he died in Force Works #1 and wasnt resurrected until Avengers Vol 2 #3), Hercules was an alcoholic (explored in Heroes for Hire), Moonknight was killed at the end of his last ongoing series, Quicksilver was having trouble dealing with the 'death' of his sister, Black Panther always struggled to balance being a monarch with being an Avengers, Black Knight was with Heroes for Hire, Hellcat was dead, Ms Marvel was off in space as Binary, Mockingbird dead, War Machine had no armour at that time, USAgent was doing private sector work, Tigra was working as a Police officer, human affairs were largely beneath Sersi, Quasar had faked his death and left Earth, Living lightening went back to college.

Really there wasnt anyone left - or at least not enough with the motivation to form a dedicated team, and no one with the presence of someone like Cap or Stark who could hold a team together.




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Reverend Meteor


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:
    Okay, so let me first off state that Heroes Reborn did stink like last month's garbage, but I do have to say that the Marvel Universe that remained might have been better had there been new incarnations of the teams that were wiped out and could have set up interesting storylines when the original heroes returned.



    Quote:
    Yes, I know that we got Thunderbolts out of the deal and that the original concept was awesome. We also got an underrated Quicksilver book, a new Heroes for Hire, Elektra, and Ka-Zar out of the situation. I know that Thunderbolts needed the hero vacuum for the series to really catch on, but I also think that it would have been interesting to see new incarnations of the classic teams.



    Quote:
    So, I would like to pose a few questions to you fans who suffered through that era of Marvel bankruptcy, both in terms of fiscal responsibility and comic book publishing:
    1) If they did a new Avengers and a new Fantastic Four book set in the Marvel Universe proper (616), which survivors would you place on the teams?
    2) Was the concept of a "Heroes for Hire" team the wrong book at the wrong place in the wrong time and set up to fail immediately simply because you had all these heroes who supposedly sacrificed their lives against a bigger threat?
    3) Did they reveal the T-bolts secret too early?
    4) Were there enough heroes killed off by Onslaught?


1. You could have a Fantastic Four team without the Fantastic Four...but would really want to read it? I guess Fantastic Force could have reformed (they had just recently disbanded I think).

2. I thought the art was bad. So that was my major reason for not buying the comic at the time. I don't think the premise itself is flawed in any way or that they debuted at a particularly opportune or inopportune time. The harsh reality is bad art can't save good writing. Good art can save bad writing for a while...I would have probably hated the clone saga if Bagley wasn't on ASM but the art was pretty so I was perfectly content to read about clones and more clones.

3. Hmmm. I'm a huge classic Thunderbolt fan. On the one hand I think their was a lot of mileage to get out of the idea of them pretending to be heroes but you could only stretch that out for so long before people would complain that the Thunderbolts needed to be exposed. I liked that Busiek had a plan and that within a year the whole deception was wrapped up and I thoroughly enjoyed the way the story was dealt with in Thunderbolts #10-12 BUT that second year was awful for me. Between the fun of the deception being over, the loss of Helmut and Norbert (my 2 favorite members), Hawkeye (who I despise) being paired with Karla (my next favorite) and forcing Abe to go to jail, the introduction of Charcoal...that second year was rough. I loved the first 12 issues of Thunderbolts but the love I had for the characters was reignited when Fabian Nicieza took over in issue 34. A lot of the stories Busiek was telling after issue 12 were things I wasn't interested in. Nicieza came back and worked Helmut and Norbert back in which I will always be thankful for because I love those guys.

4. More classic characters dumped into the garbage Heroes Reborn universe? No Thanks.







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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    If they did a new Avengers and a new Fantastic Four book set in the Marvel Universe proper (616), which survivors would you place on the teams?


Doing exactly what you propose would surely have violated the deal under which Heroes Reborn was put in place - HOWEVER... I have a weird alternative idea.

Marvel could have done a Squadron Supreme comic. The team had been stranded on 616 Earth. I know that some time in the 90s they made it back to their own universe, but that story could have been shelved (in our imagined alternate history of Marvel publishing decisions) in favor of a comic where the Squadron Supreme, on 616 Earth, fill the vacuum left by the absence of the Avengers.








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zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


1) A new Fantastic Four team would be difficult to do. It's a title about family, and in my opinion it works best when about exploration. I'm not sure what the in-story reason would be to replace them.

Avengers, however, are about stopping bad guys. There would be a percieved need to fill a void there. With Black Widow filling the ranks, I'd expect a more "Secret Avengers" feel. I'd like to see Natasha playing to her strengnths. I always thought it was wierd that this "super-spy" would cavort with the world's most high profile super team without even a mask. So, Black Widow's team would be one that went in and dismantled a threat, rather than beating up trans-dimensional beings on Park Avenue.

So... my "Onslaught Era Replacement (Secret) Avengers" would be:

Black Widow (leader)
USAgent
Firebird (energy projector, and experience w/supernatural)
Black Knight (tech expert)
Sandman (muscle, infiltration)
Kuroko (infiltration, resident reforming bad-guy)
Quicksilver

2) H4H was a fine concept, whose quality was uneven. I mostly read it to keep up with what the Avengers were doing until they got their team back.

3) I wouldn't criticize anything about the first run of T-bolts. LOVED it.

4) eh...wasn't a TON of heroes, but all the high profile ones. And moving more heroes over to the Franklin-verse would have made things more cluttered there, unless they didn't all revert to becoming heroes. Even then, I'd want a scene with Chris Powell as an ordinary high school student, just so I knew Marvel hadn't forgotten he had been tossed in...


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katefan




Actually, your idea could have worked. The Squadron was still stranded by the time Kurt Busiek and George Perez began their Avengers run after Heroes Reborn crashed and burned. The Squadron could have had a series written paralleling the Thunderbolts comic, two hero teams filling the gap. They could have moved into Avengers mansion the way the 'Bolts moved into the Baxter Building.


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America's Captain 

Maintainer

Location: Bayville New Jersey
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    Actually, your idea could have worked. The Squadron was still stranded by the time Kurt Busiek and George Perez began their Avengers run after Heroes Reborn crashed and burned. The Squadron could have had a series written paralleling the Thunderbolts comic, two hero teams filling the gap. They could have moved into Avengers mansion the way the 'Bolts moved into the Baxter Building.


Cool! And of course the two teams would have been set into conflict in an Avengers-versus-Defenders sort of way, hopefully increasing the popularity of both.

You know, this is a fanfic begging to be written...






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fan4





    Quote:
    Okay, so let me first off state that Heroes Reborn did stink like last month's garbage...


I can't comment on the non-Fantastic Four material, but I liked aspects of the Fantastic Four reboot. Johnny acted like a normal person when he gained his flame powers. I can't say the same when dealing with Fantastic Four No. 1 vol. 1. Ben's "rough font" was first used in Heroes Reborn. I missed it when it was no longer used. I also liked Ben and Johnny's relationship in the new world.

My only complaint is that the code names came from nowhere. One issue the Fantastic Four only have their full names, next issue civilians are referring to individuals (founding members of the F4) by their code names.


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mjyoung





    Quote:
    So, I would like to pose a few questions to you fans who suffered through that era of Marvel bankruptcy, both in terms of fiscal responsibility and comic book publishing:


Interesting scenario. I'm going to try and play by the rules of only knowing what Marvel did in 96-97 and not chang over anything that was basically working at the time (like Heroes for Hire).


    Quote:
    1) If they did a new Avengers and a new Fantastic Four book set in the Marvel Universe proper (616), which survivors would you place on the teams?


My first thought for the Avengers was to try and emulate a Big 7 take like Morrison was doing around the same time at DC with the JLA. But really after Spider-Man, Wolverine, and the Hulk, you are looking at the next popular characters in that time of Cable, Deadpool, Kazar, and Elektra. Not really an interesting roster.

So instead, I would suggest a Street Avengers book. Wolverine, Daredevil, Elektra, Psylocke, Archangel, and Black Widow. Have the team fight villains like the Hand. Joe Mad seemed to like alot of these types of characters, so he would be a great fit for the art. Pair him up with Lobdell and move him away from the X-titles. Not really sure what a good name would be, but this has street fighter video game written all over it.

For the Fantastic Four, I would pick characters that were associated with the team as replacements. Black Panther (Mr Fantastic), Storm (Invisible Woman), Namor (Human Torch), She-Hulk (Thing). Play about with the Storm/Namor/Black Panther love triangle.


    Quote:
    2) Was the concept of a "Heroes for Hire" team the wrong book at the wrong place in the wrong time and set up to fail immediately simply because you had all these heroes who supposedly sacrificed their lives against a bigger threat?


Looking up the sales, H4H seemed to be a failuare from the beginning. By the second issue it was outside the top 100. This seemed to be primarily because of the marketplace at the time and so many special things were going on (Marvel Vs DC, Amalgam, Flashblack, Heroes Reborn, etc). But the title still had it's flaws.


    Quote:
    3) Did they reveal the T-bolts secret too early?


The primary problem was just that it wasn't a reveal that many people cared about. Revealing the characters to be B-list villains of a B-list title at the time wasn't exciting to most fans. I think because of that, they should have extended the reveal a little further to issue 12. Build up the characters for a year as new characters, drop hints about who they really are, have a big showdown with the Avengers, and reveal the characters then. Fans love suspense.


    Quote:
    4) Were there enough heroes killed off by Onslaught?


Sure.


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