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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Question : could Electro kill Wonder Man, Atlas or Count Nefaria ?


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USAgentfan');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


I doubt it.

First of all, each of those characters are made out of energy themselves, and secondly each of them has shown an incredible resistsnace to all forms of attack in the past.

It is theorised that none of them could be perminantly killed because energy can neither be created or destroyed.


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Reverend Meteor');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:
    Question : could Electro kill Wonder Man, Atlas or Count Nefaria ?


No. Their ionic powers would make them nearly invulnerable. I've seen Atlas get hit with electric attacks before and shrug it off.

Electro probably could kill several people who had the power of super strength but these 3 in particular would be immune. Their power makes their skin impenetrable so I doubt the electricity would even char their skin. And it's been implied none of them are "alive" in the traditional sense so the electricity wouldn't stop their hearts either.




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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    It is theorised that none of them could be permanently killed because energy can neither be created or destroyed.


But isn't he the master of electricity ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_electrons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronegativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Their ionic powers would make them nearly invulnerable.


Nearly but ... their powers are based on ionization energy which is linked to electricity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_bond
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field


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The Black Guardian');

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Marvel's Ionic Energy is not to be confused with ions.




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TJ Burns





While Simon's been shown to be discombobulated a little extra by electricity, Electro's too big an idiot to successfully pull something like this off. I suspect it'd be possible if he wasn't, though.


TJB


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bd2999');

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Question : could Electro kill Wonder Man, Atlas or Count Nefaria ?


Exceptionally doubtful. He would probably do little more than annoy.




Look Raist bunnies...
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FirstChAoS





    Quote:
    Marvel's Ionic Energy is not to be confused with ions.


Their goes my question of whether they were made of cations or anions.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:
      Their ionic powers would make them nearly invulnerable.



    Quote:
    Nearly but ... their powers are based on ionization energy which is linked to electricity


In the sense that it deals in the bonds between the outer electron shells of atoms which is where all chemistry takes place. So electric powers themselves probably aren't going to do Electro any good against an ionic being unless he's learned how to master chemistry at an atomic level or something.










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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Marvel's Ionic Energy is not to be confused with ions.


Really ? I thought that it was based on ionization energy :

Wonder Man gained his superhuman powers due to chemical and radiation treatments with ionization energy by Baron Zemo, giving him superhuman strength, speed, stamina, durability, agility, and reflexes.


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    While Simon's been shown to be discombobulated a little extra by electricity, Electro's too big an idiot to successfully pull something like this off. I suspect it'd be possible if he wasn't, though.


Thanks. \:\-\)

I think that he can.
I quote Marvel Knights Spider-Man : Electro was taught by Doctor Octopus during a stint in prison that he could ionize metals.



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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    So electric powers themselves probably aren't going to do Electro any good against an ionic being unless he's learned how to master chemistry at an atomic level or something.


Even if he is no genius, he knows more than people give him credit for.

Electro once defeated the Invisible Woman when he created a localized electromagnetic storm.

This allowed him to carbonize the air around her and it imprisoned her in a sheath of rock hard carbon atoms, effectively making a statue out of her.

The Wizard teached him how to do it.

See my other example below : Doc Ock teached him how to ionize metal.



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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Exceptionally doubtful. He would probably do little more than annoy.


Electro should not be underestimated.

He is a thug with the same kind of power set than Magneto.

Of course, Magneto is more dangerous than Electro because he is smarter and a brilliant scientist.
That's why Magneto used to be an enemy of the X-Men, the Avengers and the FF.

Nevertheless, Electro is also a powerhouse.


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USAgentfan');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


I'm not sure if its ever been established that he is the 'master' of electricity. His control of it has as far as I recall always been restricted to the mundane, such as electric blasts.

He seems to lack the ability, imagination or application to truely master his potential in the way that someone like Magneto did with magnatism.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:
      So electric powers themselves probably aren't going to do Electro any good against an ionic being unless he's learned how to master chemistry at an atomic level or something.



    Quote:
    Even if he is no genius, he knows more than people give him credit for.



    Quote:
    Electro once defeated the Invisible Woman when he created a localized electromagnetic storm.



    Quote:
    This allowed him to carbonize the air around her and it imprisoned her in a sheath of rock hard carbon atoms, effectively making a statue out of her.



    Quote:
    The Wizard teached him how to do it.



    Quote:
    See my other example below : Doc Ock teached him how to ionize metal.


If your question had been could Electro hurt Spider-Man then yes I would agree with you. Generic super strength would probably not be enough to stop Electro if he zapped you and gave you everything he had.


But the people you listed have been shown to be invulnerable. Wonderman for example survived a bomb that annihilated most of the life in the Kree galaxy in Galactic Storm. His skin is invulnerable. It's not just that he's super strong but you can't penetrate his skin. He's also not alive in the traditional sense. I think the current understanding is that Simon is sentient energy that looks like a human being but isn't.

Lastly let's be honest Wonder Man's powers clearly aren't ionic. That's the term they use in the comics but ions are what happens when an atom gets more or less electrons than it's supposed to have which is important chemistry wise (because chemistry deals with the outer electron shells) but Wonder Man apparently doesn't affect the chemical properties of things and Electro for the most part doesn't either.

I'm guessing you're not really asking IF it's possible for Wonder Man to be killed by Electro (I think most of us here agree he can't). You're really asking HOW would Electro kill Wonderman. The only way I can think Electro could do that is find a way to make Wonderman's body lose cohesion or find a way to de-ionize every atom that constitutes Wonder Man.



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The Black Guardian');

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008






City of Heroes is BACK!
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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    But the people you listed have been shown to be invulnerable.

I am looking for their kryptonite.
There is always an Achilles' heel.
Even Adamantium can be destroyed if you have access to the correct technology.
It is very difficult but it is possible.

Electrokinesis or magnetokinesis would seem logical if some kind of ionization process is involved.


    Quote:
    I think the current understanding is that Simon is sentient energy that looks like a human being but isn't


Yes, like Electro (since the Gauntlet), the Living Laser (probably, between Iron Man 153 and 211), the Living Lightning (in Avengers West Coast) and Ion (in Machine Man 15) ?

Both Electro & Living Lightning can turn into sentient electric plasma.

The body of Voletta Todd (Ion) is composed of living ionized gas and she can manipulate electromagnetic energy.

The Living Laser has become some kind of sentient "coherent light".

In my opinion, all these characters are not truly "immortal".

Their energy cannot be destroyed or created but their "self-awareness" can be.

Especially if they are against somebody with the psionic power of "electromagnetic-kinesis".


    Quote:
    Lastly let's be honest Wonder Man's powers clearly aren't ionic. That's the term they use in the comics but ions are what happens when an atom gets more or less electrons than it's supposed to have which is important chemistry wise (because chemistry deals with the outer electron shells) but Wonder Man apparently doesn't affect the chemical properties of things and Electro for the most part doesn't either.


Honestly, I think that Wonder Man's powers seem to be linked to ionization energy.
When his eyes or his body "leak" ionic energy, it looks like plasma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized_gas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation


    Quote:
    I'm guessing you're not really asking IF it's possible for Wonder Man to be killed by Electro (I think most of us here agree he can't).

I don't want Electro to kill Wonder Man, Atlas or Nefaria but I think he can.
It doesn't matter if I am one of the few who believes it on the board.
I don't believe that "Ionic people" are as invulnerable as they seem to be.
Even Superman has limits and even Sentry can be stopped.


    Quote:
    You're really asking HOW would Electro kill Wonderman.

Yes, I do.
If I find a way to explain how Electro would kill Wonder Man, then, yes, it answers my question, he can do it.


    Quote:
    The only way I can think Electro could do that is find a way to make Wonder Man's body lose cohesion or find a way to de-ionize every atom that constitutes Wonder Man.


Perhaps, ...or he would feed on the powerhouse of Ionic people like he would, if he was near a nuclear reactor.
... or he would even deplete them or absorb their energy.

It would be like what green kryptonite radiation, red sun radiation or the parasite do to Superman.



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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


NT


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

    I'm not sure if its ever been established that he is the 'master' of electricity. His control of it has as far as I recall always been restricted to the mundane, such as electric blasts.

    He seems to lack the ability, imagination or application to truly master his potential in the way that someone like Magneto did with magnetism.

Yes but it is only a matter of personality : like Iceman, Electro is an underachiever.
Magneto met Electro and claimed that Dillon's power rivaled his own.

He doesn't do it but it doesn't mean that he cannot do it.



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The Black Guardian');

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008






City of Heroes is BACK!
Posted with Mozilla Firefox 19.0 on Windows 8
Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


NT


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The Black Guardian');

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Perhaps having "nothing to do with ionization" wasn't correct.

What is certain is that Ionic Energy is nothing like electricity. Nothing Simon and Nefaria do resembles electricity. UV, X-Rays, Gamma Rays, Cosmic Rays are all forms of ionizing radiation, and this is what Marvel's Ionic Energy is more akin to.

But at that point, what differentiates Simon and Nefaria from Hulk or all of the thousands of other ionizing radiation heroes and villains (heck, almost everyone in the MU depends on ionizing radiation for their powers)? There has to be something unique about what Marvel is calling "Ionic Energy" or these characters cease being special, and that "something unique" is magical pseudoscience that cannot be explained. This is especially true since people like Nefaria can mind-control anyone with "Ionic Energy." "Ionic Energy" is pretty much "The Ionic Force," just another in a long line of magical things like "The Speed Force" or "The Phoenix Force." or "The Life Force."

I'm not even sure how Electro was able to do that carbonizing the air trick. There just shouldn't have been enough carbon around for anything like that.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Reverend Meteor');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 11,689



    Quote:

      Quote:
      But the people you listed have been shown to be invulnerable.

    I am looking for their kryptonite.
    There is always an Achilles' heel.
    Even Adamantium can be destroyed if you have access to the correct technology.
    It is very difficult but it is possible.



    Quote:
    Electrokinesis or magnetokinesis would seem logical if some kind of ionization process is involved.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I think the current understanding is that Simon is sentient energy that looks like a human being but isn't



    Quote:
    Yes, like Electro (since the Gauntlet), the Living Laser (probably, between Iron Man 153 and 211), the Living Lightning (in Avengers West Coast) and Ion (in Machine Man 15) ?



    Quote:
    Both Electro & Living Lightning can turn into sentient electric plasma.



    Quote:
    The body of Voletta Todd (Ion) is composed of living ionized gas and she can manipulate electromagnetic energy.



    Quote:
    The Living Laser has become some kind of sentient "coherent light".



    Quote:
    In my opinion, all these characters are not truly "immortal".



    Quote:
    Their energy cannot be destroyed or created but their "self-awareness" can be.



    Quote:
    Especially if they are against somebody with the psionic power of "electromagnetic-kinesis".



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Lastly let's be honest Wonder Man's powers clearly aren't ionic. That's the term they use in the comics but ions are what happens when an atom gets more or less electrons than it's supposed to have which is important chemistry wise (because chemistry deals with the outer electron shells) but Wonder Man apparently doesn't affect the chemical properties of things and Electro for the most part doesn't either.






    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm guessing you're not really asking IF it's possible for Wonder Man to be killed by Electro (I think most of us here agree he can't).

    I don't want Electro to kill Wonder Man, Atlas or Nefaria but I think he can.
    It doesn't matter if I am one of the few who believes it on the board.
    I don't believe that "Ionic people" are as invulnerable as they seem to be.
    Even Superman has limits and even Sentry can be stopped.
      Quote:

        Quote:
        You're really asking HOW would Electro kill Wonderman.

      Yes, I do.
      If I find a way to explain how Electro would kill Wonder Man, then, yes, it answers my question, he can do it.
        Quote:

          Quote:
          The only way I can think Electro could do that is find a way to make Wonder Man's body lose cohesion or find a way to de-ionize every atom that constitutes Wonder Man.



    Quote:
    Perhaps, ...or he would feed on the powerhouse of Ionic people like he would, if he was near a nuclear reactor.
    ... or he would even deplete them or absorb their energy.


But Electro absorbs electricity. Wonder Man's energy powers aren't electric (he isn't a stream of electrons). If we take Marvel at their word that somehow Wondy's powers really are "ionic" then he's flinging around charged atoms with more than normal or less than normal numbers of electrons...but that isn't the same thing as flinging around a concentrated stream of electrons. Electro can't absorb all that proton and neutron goodness that come along with atoms.


    Quote:
    It would be like what green kryptonite radiation, red sun radiation or the parasite do to Superman.


Wonder Man's weakness is like you said that if you disrupt his physical form you kill him (the Kree used a bomb to explode him I think until Wanda pulled him back together again...clearly Wanda is evil). So it can be done. I should clarify my assertion. It's not my assertion that Wonder Man can't be killed. It's my assertion that Electro won't be the one to be able to do it. Could an eternal like Sersi who manipulates matter do it? Sure. Could someone like the absorbing man or the super adaptoid who have experience absorbing multiple types of energy be able to do it? Probably. Can Electro whose power consists of electricity affect Wonder Man whose energy form is not electric and actually kill him? I would still say no.

If Electro starts absorbing ionized atoms and not just electrons then I will consider it.





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USAgentfan');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


Either way, the laws of physics dictate that energy cannot be destroyed, therefore technically neither can an energy based being like Wonderman.

Dillons only hope would be somehow changing or converting Wondermans energy into a form from which he would not be able to recorperate himself.

When Wonderman was 'killed' by the exploding Kree Ion cannon in Force Works #1, this theory was mentioned at that time - that technically he couldnt be destroyed, but may never be able to refom himself due to changes in his atomic structure, and so was effectively 'dead'.

The chance of Dillon ever being educated, patient, motivated or diligent enough to really reach his potential is slim, where as the likes of Iceman have those attributes.


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bd2999');

Moderator

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Exceptionally doubtful. He would probably do little more than annoy.



    Quote:
    Electro should not be underestimated.



    Quote:
    He is a thug with the same kind of power set than Magneto.



    Quote:
    Of course, Magneto is more dangerous than Electro because he is smarter and a brilliant scientist.
    That's why Magneto used to be an enemy of the X-Men, the Avengers and



    Quote:
    Nevertheless, Electro is also a powerhouse.


To a point he is. He has enjoyed power creep but he is not all that clever. Given the folks above Nefaria would tare him apart. He has better odds against WM or A but not great still. The durability of these characters is not to be underestimated.




Look Raist bunnies...
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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    When Wonderman was 'killed' by the exploding Kree Ion cannon in Force Works #1, this theory was mentioned at that time - that technically he couldnt be destroyed, but may never be able to refom himself due to changes in his atomic structure, and so was effectively 'dead'.


Many thanks.
If Wondy was 'killed' by an ion cannon, IMO, it does answer my question. \:\-\)


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    "Ionic Energy" is pretty much "The Ionic Force," just another in a long line of magical things like "The Speed Force" or "The Phoenix Force." or "The Life Force."


That's why I agree with you in my previous post : in the MU, there are "Gamma people", "Power cosmic" people, "Ionic" people, "Darkforce" people, et cetera.

Gamma radiation doesn't give to normal people superpowers and green/red skin in real life.
Even if the gamma radiation is the powersource, there was something else involved.
They all had a genetic potential to absorb the energy of the gamma radiation and use it as a powersource.
So "the Gamma powered people" are all "unusual humans" (=mutates in the vocabulary of the Marvel universe).

The same could be said about Ionic people.


    Quote:
    UV, X-Rays, Gamma Rays, Cosmic Rays are all forms of ionizing radiation, and this is what Marvel's Ionic Energy is more akin to.

An electromagnetic radiation ?


    Quote:
    What is certain is that Ionic Energy is nothing like electricity. Nothing Simon and Nefaria do resembles electricity.


No, just like nothing Hulk does resembles the properties of gamma radiation, or nothing the Thing does resembles the properties of cosmic rays.

I think that "Ionic people" are accumulators of ionization energy like "Gamma people" are accumulators of gamma radiation.

So, somebody with "electromagnetokinesis" could affect them.

I would use the same logic for a fight between Hulk & Magneto.




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USAgentfan');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 2,623


Its not established for sure that he was - it was just one theory that was bandied around at the time.


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Given the folks above Nefaria would tare him apart. He has better odds against WM or A but not great still. The durability of these characters is not to be underestimated.


You're right : Nefaria is also a "power siphon" (**) and/or an "Ionic vampire".
I didn't think about that.
So, anyway, Electro wouldn't have any tactical advantage against him.



(**) in differents ways ...


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Grey Gargoyle');


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    Electro can't absorb all that proton and neutron goodness that come along with atoms.


No but could Electro cut WM from his powersource ?


    Quote:
    If Electro starts absorbing ionized atoms and not just electrons then I will consider it.


My theory (**) was the following :
I had the feeling that WM, Atlas & Nefaria were powered by an ionizing energy process, even if they don't have electric powers.

Just like gamma radiation powers Hulk, even if Hulk doesn't have radioactive powers.

So, somebody with electromagnetic powers could "spoil their soup" :
Ionic people would be cut from their powersource, because of the links between electrostatic energy and ionization energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_force

Of course, Electro would have to know how "ionic powers" work.
That's why he would have to team up with somebody like Dr. Malus or Stuart Clarke.

Now, there could be another theory :
What if Wondy, Atlas & Nefaria's bodies are ionic solids ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_compound

Then, their bodies cannot conduct electricity.

Thus, you would be right : Electro cannot directly use electricity against them. The only way would be exactly what you said :


    Quote:

    The only way I can think Electro could do that is find a way to make Wonder Man's body lose cohesion or find a way to de-ionize every atom that constitutes Wonder Man.


It would be coherent with his power set :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro_(Marvel_Comics)#Powers_and_abilities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_bond


(**) Of course, it is only a theory of mine but I had the feeling that there was a link between "Ionic energy" and the Ionosphere in Nefaria Protocols.
http://www.comicvine.com/nefaria-protocols/4045-56817/


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