In AvX he tried to kill Hope Summers now he killed Hank Pym what his problem

All they can dream up in their uncreative minds for Wolverine is stabby stab.

This is not a recent problem. Going way back to the eighties he stabbed Rachel Summers to prevent her from killing Selene, the mutant vampire who had become the Hellfire Club's Black Queen. It was Claremont's way of writing Rachel out of the X-Men to put her later on in his new series, Excalibur. I remember I was so upset it was the first time I ever wrote someone at a comic book company and it was really when the shine came off of X-Men for me. That was how big a Wolverine fan I was at the time.

Well, I'm not saying he shouldn't stab. He's got claws after all. The Rachel thing was a "last straw" situation, if it was even meant to kill (and I'm not so sure). But it's become his first reaction to everything because writers simply cannot think better. He's become a caricature.

In fact, that example is the perfect display of how Wolverine should be written: talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and then stab. As mad as it seems it made you, it had nothing but love from me: that's one of the best X-Men arcs of all time.

I have to respectfully disagree. Wolverine chose to stab a team mate rather than have her kill a woman who had spent centuries killing other people. All because he guessed Rachel's telekinesis could keep the wounds he inflicted closed. Selene's very existence depended upon her feeding on people. It was not a matter of if she would kill next but when. There was no potential for danger, it was constantly imminent. And now she was in civilization, a member of one of the X-Men's worst enemies, the Hellfire Club.

But you know what made me even angrier? Kitty was mad at Wolverine for all of two issues before she forgave him. Wolverine stabs her best friend but it's all okay. There were no long term consequences whatsoever.

I've never been a fan so to me the problem has always been Wolverine himself.

His problem for me is that he doesn't belong with the Avengers, and they wouldn't/shouldn't tolerate his nature as a killer.

Wolverine originally worked so well as a character as he was an outsider among other outsiders in the X-Men. They weren't anything like as extreme as he was but due to their nature as social outcasts and the unspoken war they often fought they accepted his behaviour as a part of who he was and tried to moderate this darkr side of his character. The X-Men never had the same image to protect as the Avengers did, it was a different situation for them as they didn't see themselves as specifically heroes and for that matter were not seen as such.

You can look at his attacks on Scarlet Witch (Childrens Crusade), Hank Pym and Hope Summers, and see precedent by reffering to his reasoning for killing Rachel (X-Men #208), or even Jean Grey when she was losing control and slipping into Dark Pheonix.
The problem is, and always has been, that he doesn't really belong to a superhero team like the Avengers. Yes Thor killed Robert Reynolds in a move to end the Sentry's rampage, but that was perhaps justifiable given the sheer carnage he had delivered and the fact he was insane. Thor had only moments to make his decision and take the opening Reynolds offers him. With Wolverine the position is different as he is attacking people based on what they might do, yes Pym technically has innocent blood on his hands but he is not intentionally evil. Pym's invention delivered great evil onto the world, but that was never Pyms intention when building it.

So with Wolverine's Avengers prescence it's a clash of differing idealogy and morals, both Thor and Black Widow are capable of killing if needs be, but unlike Wolverine they don't do it unless there is absolutely no alternative but to do so, typically in the heat of battle and when the opponent is impossibly powerful.

And I don't like him as an Avenger either. And they adds ANOTHER team that he's on. How many X-Teams is he on? 3? 4?

Me too. I never liked dark and gritty vigilantes and killers, and after about a year of buying guest appearances when I was new to comics as fans said they'd be worth money, I learned to buy what I like.

In my opinion wolverine represents alot of what is wrong with comics these days. He is a gritty killer, over exposed, and forced onto every book. A forced dark and gritty tone and killing is way too common in comics these days and I hate it. Wolverine is like the living representative of this trend.

I'll be honest...in the real world I would be all for vigilantes. I don't have a moral problem with vigilantes. It's just they're usually not that interesting to read about or watch on television.

Neither are the villains like Carnage who have no redeeming qualities and just like to slaughter people.

I want a flawed hero or a complex villain.







Yeah I'm not a fan of dark and gritty either. I don't mind that every now and then a hero realizes he has to kill someone to do the greater good in a specific situation. But it gets annoying when a single character always ends up being the one to make that decision...after a while it's like hey maybe you're too quick to stab your friends to death Logan.


I feel like Wolverine being granted an Avengers membership is a tacit endorsement of his brand of his justice. The Avengers should be ashamed. They've given countless others the lecture about not killing criminals and here they have Wolverine who keeps on doing it. He doesn't want to modify his behavior or redeem himself...he's just going to keep being himself and the Avengers are going to keep looking the other way. The Avengers are officially part of the problem now.

I mean I really used to think the Smurfs were awesome when I was a kid too.

That is a good question. Now that I am older I can look back and say that yes, Wolverine was awesome. He was the short, ugly loner, a man always on the edge of going berserk. I loved how he had to deal with this inherent savagery as he was written as a guy coming into the role of a mentor and surrogate father figure. The way Claremont wrote him, it felt as if becoming Kitty Pryde's teacher gave him more reason to be a better man than pining for Jean Grey ever did. Then Claremont sort of ruined it by trying to get lightning to strike twice, having him do it with Jubilee.

And Hugh Jackman was an awesome Wolverine, he still is when given good material. The failure really is the over exposure. There can be too much of a good thing and Wolverine adopts so many hats it's impossible to believe he can be a stand up Avenger, a merciless X-Men assassin and a teacher of kids.

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That is a good question. Now that I am older I can look back and say that yes, Wolverine was awesome. He was the short, ugly loner, a man always on the edge of going berserk. I loved how he had to deal with this inherent savagery as he was written as a guy coming into the role of a mentor and surrogate father figure. The way Claremont wrote him, it felt as if becoming Kitty Pryde's teacher gave him more reason to be a better man than pining for Jean Grey ever did. Then Claremont sort of ruined it by trying to get lightning to strike twice, having him do it with Jubilee.

Those are very good points, I don't think adding Jubilee as his conscience/student did him any harm myself but then it may depend on your own tolerance for that character. Myself I thought it added something as the loner was forced to show a responsible side and a different facet of his personality.
Where Wolverine started going wrong was in the early to mid 90s when the X-Men was at its peak in terms of commercial comicbook success and Wolverine was well on the road to becoming overused and over exposed. He's not a character that was built for A-list Spider-man/Iron Man status as his success was built partially on the air of mystique surrounding him, of how he came to have all that adamantium, what his past was, how old was he, and indeed what his name was. All questions that have now been explored for all they're worth, is there anything left to say about the man?! Hell, he even has a family tree now!

And so was Wolverine. He has pretty much set the character trend since circa 1980.