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Comicguy1




Yeah, I know, no one stays dead in comics, and you can argue that most of them shouldn't have been killed off to begin with, BUT, at least a few of the ones brought back should have STAYED dead. And there was a reason that some of them were killed off in the first place. I'm sure that we all have our own personal list, so, let's have at it. Here are mine:

#Elektra- She was CREATED to die. Frank Miller told a storyline with her, and that was all that he had planned. Her storyline was complete. Anything after Frank Miller, shouldn't have been, unless in Flashback.

#Mendell Strom- He was the Robot Master. He was resurrected as Gaunt during the Clone Saga. He was the partner of Norman Osborn, which led to Norman becoming the Green Goblin. He was a one-shot character created to die.

#Bolivar Trask- The creator of the Sentinels and the Master Mold. I never read the story, but again, created to die. Died in his first appearance. I believe that his death was one of those noble "I saw the error of my ways, so now I want to redeem." sacrifices. Heck, you know what, ANY character created to die, especially in their first storyline or storyarc. The exception being: Wonder Man.

# Kraven The Hunter- Completely useless and senseless resurrection. The guy, for all intents and purposes already beat Spider-Man, so what's left to do with him? It's practically the only thing that the guy was even remembered for. We didn't need him back, especially as we have (Or had.) all of these other Kravens. They were using his son quite a bit. You want a new Kraven? Okay there, you have a new Kraven.

#Captain Marvel- Again, why? Was it really worth it? He's another character who's more known and remembered for hi death.

#Ultimate Spider-Man- Yeah, I know that it hasn't happened yet (Or has it?). But it probably will someday. Not that hi death was all that great (I thought that it was kind of lame, actually.), but the series pretty much ended there. I think that they should have ended the series and the title there. That was kind of Bendis's baby. Now that there's a new title (Which I actually kind of want to check out.) around, you just know that he's going to be back one day. I think that the Ultimate Universe should be it's own continuity with his death intact.

# Norman Osborn- Maybe. I love the character (Or used to anyway, before Dark Reign overexposed him to death.), and I loved most of his post-resurrection Spider-Man (And Thunderbolts.) stories, but he probably could have stayed dead. I can see where a lot of people prefer him to be a legacy character, who works better as a memory, and as someone who haunts Peter from the grave.

#Aunt May- Again, maybe! I've changed my mind somewhat. She wasn't really needed as a character anymore, because Peter had grown up, and he became an adult. He also had MJ to lean on and rely upon, so she really served her purpose. However, I know that she's an integral (Too integral.) part of the Spidey universe, and that as long as he's being published, she has to be part of the books, as well as the franchise. So, a part of me thinks that maybe they shouldn't have killed her off, but since they did, I would prefer her to stay dead.

#Harry Osborn- At least since Norman's resurrection. Having Harry around takes quite a bit away from the Peter/Norman mutual hatred dynamic. If they brought back Harry instead of Norman (As they originally planned to do.), then fine, but since they brought Norman back, a lot of the animosity between the two hinged on Harry. And it's kind of hard to see him (Or rather view him.) as a friend of Peter's again, after some of the hurt that he caused him. So, since they brought back Norman, leave Harry dead.

#Bucky- Yeah I know, but still, it's Bucky.

That's all for now, because I'm tired. \:P But most of those are a definite. What about you guys?


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Martinex1




Norman Osborne - his death depicted the consequences of rage, greed, and crime.

Bucky - his death showed risk of heroism and shaped Capt America's character.

Aunt May - Inevitable course of life.

Jean Grey - Phoenix Force also. This strikes me as the start of all the returning characters. Her death was too important to the story and without that story her character is too unimportant to return.

Uncle Ben (yeah I know - but he is due back any day now).


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Reverend Meteor




1. Norman Osborn. Still pissed about Ben Reilly's death.

2. Aunt May. The only time I liked Aunt May was when that actress pretended to be her in Amazing Spider-Man #400. At least that one had the decency to die and let Peter move on.

3. Bucky. Not for the typical reasons. I'm just pissed that his death isn't a win for the Zemo family any more.

4. Any X-related character. Particularly anyone who is related to Jean Grey or Cyclops. If they haven't died yet then they should die and stay that way.

5. Mantis.


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katefan




You are so right about Bucky and Zemo. Bad guys need to win once in a while, at least in fiction.


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Daveym

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



Boy, I could go on and on with this one. But here's six that come straight to mind....


1] Jean Grey - I think you have to go back to 1987 and X-Factor to understand the context of this. She was one of the most significant characters Marvel has ever killed off, chiefly due to the strength of the storyline and the fact few thought she'd be back because of the way she died. But to out of the blue resurrect her for an inconsequential book like X-Factor was wrong on every level. There was never any strong case to resurrect her...

2] Norman Osborn - As above a significant death in the MU and one that Spider-Man and the MU had long since moved on from. Although the legacy of Osborn lived on his death was an important part of Spider-Man's growing up, Osborn was a character who's impact was far more important in death than he was in life.

3] Baron Mordo - Mordo had slipped into near irrelevance by the time JM DeMatteis revisited him in the early 90s and gave him a poignant send off. Mordo's main contribution to Doctor Strange and the MU was in his part in Strange's origin, beyond that he was inneffectual as a villain and overshadowed by the likes of Loki and Kulan Gath. He never impressed himself as a major threat and still doesn't.

4] Kraven - similar reasons to the Above. Kraven was/is a good character given a powerful send-off, but is he essential enough to Spider-Man's rogues gallery to demand a resurrection rather than a new claimant to the name...?

5] Valeria Richards - Here's the thing: I kind of like Valeria. But the nature of her origin and resurrection is one of the worst decisions Marvel has ever made.

6] Cypher - I don't have to explain this one. I like the idea of a lowkey mutant who's ability is for lingual translation, quietly impressive as an ability but impractical for super-heroing, Doug was never essential. He was never cut out for the frontlines of the X-Men's adventures. His death was a sad but believable moment in comics.




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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I'm very opposed to the permanence of anything.




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America's Captain 

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 12,139



    Quote:
    #Elektra- She was CREATED to die. Frank Miller told a storyline with her, and that was all that he had planned. Her storyline was complete. Anything after Frank Miller, shouldn't have been, unless in Flashback.


I agree. Utterly boring character to me.


    Quote:
    # Kraven The Hunter- Completely useless and senseless resurrection. The guy, for all intents and purposes already beat Spider-Man, so what's left to do with him? It's practically the only thing that the guy was even remembered for. We didn't need him back, especially as we have (Or had.) all of these other Kravens. They were using his son quite a bit. You want a new Kraven? Okay there, you have a new Kraven.


I have a different take on this. He shouldn't have died. There shouldn't have been other Kravens. He's a classic and should always have been available for stories.


    Quote:
    #Captain Marvel- Again, why? Was it really worth it? He's another character who's more known and remembered for hi death.


He shouldn't have died in the first place. Mar-Vell filled a niche all his own. No one was quite like him.


    Quote:
    #Bucky- Yeah I know, but still, it's Bucky.


I agree. Any story told with him, aside from his death and return stories, could have been told either with Nomad or with the Falcon.






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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,295




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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    I'm very opposed to the permanence of anything.


I like that notion in theory if not in practice.


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:

      Quote:
      I'm very opposed to the permanence of anything.

    I like that notion in theory if not in practice.

Indeed. "In practice" it depends on what and how.

There are certainly things that I adore and don't want to see end. The opposite holds true, as well.
- I have no wish to see Sentry ever again.
- I will never pine over Apocalypse.
- Fantomex probably should have stayed dead, too.
- Although I love the Spidey marriage, I would have accepted its ending had it been done in practically any other way than what OMD/OMIT gave us, especially if that way involved Aunt May really dying and not coming back.

But I cannot support the idea of a character staying dead, in perpetuity, simply because one writer/editor/regime okayed their death. This is especially true when deaths are done for shock/sales, which seems to be almost all of the time.




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katefan




But you can't deny that some characters should have stayed dead, at least because their deaths became part of a larger mythos.

Norman Osborn dying is a death that hits on multiple levels, both in satisfaction that Gwen's killer has met justice and that despite his actions this was Peter's best friend's father. Osborn coming back cheapens that era of Spidey comics.

Phoenix should have stayed dead. I don't care what her name is or what it implies, Jean Grey did not need to come back.

Bucky should have stayed dead, dead, dead! I don't care how good people claim the Winter Soldier stories are. I've read some of 'em and I am not impressed. Bucky's death was important for a couple reasons, one showing Captain America does not always win (and giving a much needed win to the Zemo family) and showing the heroes why you shouldn't have teen sidekicks.

But hey, it's okay! Just because you die doesn't mean it's permanent or anything. Just wait a year or two, you'll be back!


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    But you can't deny that some characters should have stayed dead, at least because their deaths became part of a larger mythos.

I can and do deny it. Their rebirths can just as well become part of the larger mythos. Nothing whatsoever should be permanent.


    Quote:
    Phoenix should have stayed dead. I don't care what her name is or what it implies, Jean Grey did not need to come back.

I especially vehemently disagree with this. She should never have died in the first place, but her coming back is the best thing that ever happened with her. And her second death was disgusting and should be unwritten.




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creeper21oo

Kraven



Did Kraven ever appear after the Grim Hunt? I stopped collecting ASM a few years ago.



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Comicguy1





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Comicguy1




And what was so bad about Jean's second death? We need new ideas and new characters. Not every death is done for shock value. In the case of Elektra, it was supposed to be a finite story. And what did Kraven's resurrection bring, or the resurrection of Trask, etc?


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    And what was so bad about Jean's second death? We need new ideas and new characters. Not every death is done for shock value. In the case of Elektra, it was supposed to be a finite story. And what did Kraven's resurrection bring, or the resurrection of Trask, etc?

I don't claim to want everyone to return or claim that I know how everyone should return. However...

I truly believe Peter would be a better hero if Ben were alive and May were not. Vol 1 #46 is one of my favourite What Ifs.

Gwen Stacy? I don't know. If it could possibly get rid of "Sins Past" I'd be all for it.

Jean's second death was done for shock and to push the Emma Agenda. However, almost immediately, we start getting this transformation of Emma into a Jean with bleachjob... except she's still a hooker with a heart. So, we're left with a pale immitation and one less character.

Just because there have been weak resurrections does not mean there shouldn't be any. Good stories can still be told with Kraven.

Good stories could still be told with Trask. I mean, Trask's whole point was that he ultimately realizes Sentinels are stupid. If he were back and not being mind-controlled by a Sentinel, he could have a wonderful redemption story.




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Comicguy1




And who on earth would want Ben back? He was CREATED to die. That was the whole point of him. Someone would have brought him back by now if Marvel thought that it was a good idea. Nostalgia is really strong, isn't it? Go back and read those What Ifs.

As for Jean, she's kind of back anyway. isn't she?


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The Black Guardian

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Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


No, Trask did not, unless you count suiciding rather than continue being under Bastion's control. Suicide is not exactly redemptive. It's the easy way out. Trask has much more work to be done than Pym.


    Quote:
    And who on earth would want Ben back? He was CREATED to die. That was the whole point of him. Someone would have brought him back by now if Marvel thought that it was a good idea. Nostalgia is really strong, isn't it? Go back and read those What Ifs.

The number of people who want something is irrelevant to its worth.
As is Marvel's desire.
Funny. I just reread the Uncle Ben What If before posting that. It's lightyears beyond anything at Marvel today.


    Quote:
    As for Jean, she's kind of back anyway. isn't she?

Teen Jean is not really her. It's Teen Jean.




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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:

      Quote:

        Quote:
        I'm very opposed to the permanence of anything.

      I like that notion in theory if not in practice.

    Indeed. "In practice" it depends on what and how.



    Quote:
    There are certainly things that I adore and don't want to see end. The opposite holds true, as well.
    - I have no wish to see Sentry ever again.
    - I will never pine over Apocalypse.
    - Fantomex probably should have stayed dead, too.
    - Although I love the Spidey marriage, I would have accepted its ending had it been done in practically any other way than what OMD/OMIT gave us, especially if that way involved Aunt May really dying and not coming back.



    Quote:
    But I cannot support the idea of a character staying dead, in perpetuity, simply because one writer/editor/regime okayed their death. This is especially true when deaths are done for shock/sales, which seems to be almost all of the time.


See I only look at it as who not what or how. If I don't like a character then there's no way to convince me their resurrection was worth it and if I like the character I don't care how retarded the explanation for the resurrection is or what other crap comes along with it.

There's no logic to this. We like who we like.

I think I'm like you in the sense that if I like a character there is no way you can convince me there is a need to kill them off or that their death shouldn't be undone because it's a classic. Unlike you I would happily sacrifice characters I dislike because I'm sure I'm never going to warm up to them.


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Reverend Meteor







    Quote:
    I truly believe Peter would be a better hero if Ben were alive and May were not. Vol 1 #46 is one of my favourite What Ifs.


This is something I personally believe as well.

May holds Peter back IMO. I think Peter could have looked his uncle in the face and told him he was Spider-Man and Ben would have given his blessing. Peter's always had to tip toe around this old crone whose not even his biological aunt. Ben was his blood and Peter could be himself with Ben without Ben having a heart attack every time someone gives him news he doesn't like.

Reverend Meteor (I hate that old bitty)


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    And who on earth would want Ben back? He was CREATED to die. That was the whole point of him. Someone would have brought him back by now if Marvel thought that it was a good idea. Nostalgia is really strong, isn't it? Go back and read those What Ifs.


Me. I would love for Mephisto to alter the timeline where Ben lived and May died and have it stick.

Reverend Meteor (why won't you die already May?)




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katefan




I think Jean had to die the first time and Jim Shooter made the right call. Jean had obliterated a star system and killed millions, if not billions of people. She had become a Galactus level mass murderer but she was still human. How is someone supposed to look at her as anything less than a monster? I don't care if you say she was under the influence, she remembered doing it. She remembered destroying that Shi'ar cruiser with all hands. Just removing her powers was not enough.

Jean had to die in order to make the story that much more powerful, and that is why death should still have some meaning in comics.


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katefan




But May had finally broken out of that mold with JMS' run. May discovered Peter's identity and they had an awesome talk. May was insulted that Peter thought she was so frail that she would not be able to handle the truth, that Peter underestimated her so much. It was an awesome piece of character development.

And of course, it was wiped away with One More Day. May became the stone around Peter's neck once again. Who needs character advancement when you can just repeatedly press the reset button?

Joe Quesada is a jerk. I would use harsher language but I don't want to get banned again.


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Reverend Meteor





    Quote:
    But May had finally broken out of that mold with JMS' run. May discovered Peter's identity and they had an awesome talk. May was insulted that Peter thought she was so frail that she would not be able to handle the truth, that Peter underestimated her so much. It was an awesome piece of character development.


And I welcomed that event but I think we all knew it would be undone. Just like Aunt May revealing she knew Peter's secret all along and dying in ASM #400 only to turn out to be a genetically altered actress later.

We lose Mary Jane and the marriage but that damn May never dies and never remembers the secret. I'm convinced she is the cosmic embodiment of stagnation.



    Quote:
    And of course, it was wiped away with One More Day. May became the stone around Peter's neck once again. Who needs character advancement when you can just repeatedly press the reset button?






    Quote:
    Joe Quesada is a jerk. I would use harsher language but I don't want to get banned again.


If you haven't been banned more than once you're just not trying hard enough \:\)


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Comicguy1






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Comicguy1




As much as I like a lot of Yost and Kyle's(Or is it vice versa?) writing on the X-titles, too much of it just comes off as fan fiction. They just kept fixating on the 90s crossover era, and bringing back one-shot characters that no one remembers, or that died about 4 or 5 decades ago. I guess ideas run low sometimes. If you want a Trask, we already have one. And we had a few more. The original didn't need to come back. He was a one-shot.

As for your wanting Uncle Ben or Gwen Stacy back, again, if Marvel really thought that would be a good idea, they would have done a story about that already. If they brought back Bucky, they wouldn't not bring back any one of those characters. Actually, you know what, Uncle Ben did briefly come back in Amazing #500, and him and Peter had a talk. If you want to read the What If stories, then Uncle Ben came back. That's why they have What Ifs. It won't happen in the 616 verse, for good reason.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    See I only look at it as who not what or how. If I don't like a character then there's no way to convince me their resurrection was worth it and if I like the character I don't care how retarded the explanation for the resurrection is or what other crap comes along with it.

That's how I personally look at it, as well, but objectively, no. There are tons of people who love Apocalypse, but I'd rather not ever see him again.

Also, the "who" will change with the writer. All characters can be "improved" with the "right" writer. And the opposite holds. I used to like Cyclops, a bit.


    Quote:
    I think I'm like you in the sense that if I like a character there is no way you can convince me there is a need to kill them off or that their death shouldn't be undone because it's a classic. Unlike you I would happily sacrifice characters I dislike because I'm sure I'm never going to warm up to them.

Even though there are character I want dead, I truly believe that there is never, ever a need to kill a character.




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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008






City of Heroes is BACK!
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Comicguy1




Wasn't his death a redemption story? One of those "I learned the error of my ways, and I'm dying a noble death?" stories. Why bring him back? Especially with all of the other Trasks that we had.


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Comicguy1




Like Elektra, or Uncle Ben, etc?


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DCR


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,861




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