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Stuart




I gave up DC with the new 52m, nothing appealed to me

Now with Marvel I've lost complete interest. There is nothing there for me, Steves not Cap, Thor is Jane Foster. No sign of Wasp. the Inhumans are being pushed like no tomorrow. Banner is no longer the Hulk. Dr Strange is now a womanising louse. I buy their product because of my history with these characters, my love of them. I don't buy it to see Sam Wilson as Cap, or Amadeus Cho as Hulk, or Sam Alexander as Nova.

I don't mind change, but this just doesn't seem organic. I have no problem with diversity, but want it grown organically. This just seems to me. It's being pushed down my throat, "Hey we're being burned on not being diverse, OK, let's make iceman Gay, let's make Cap Black, let's make the Hulk Asian, let's dump Johnny Blaze, let's stop calling Carol Ms Marvel and we'll tell everyone the reason is because it's old fashioned and then give it to a young Girl'"

Its something when you're more interested in the behind scenes gossip at Marvel than I am with their product.


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bh


Member Since: Fri Oct 03, 2008


These are tough times to be reading comics. They aren't really for comic book fans anymore. They're more for the mainstream public. It's like Marvel and DC decided to make comics for people who hate comics.


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Stuart




I'm old enough now to realise it's their product, and they have to make money. And if I don't like their product as a consumer I have a choice to buy or not buy. But as a collector I found it hard to give up. But 52 and Secret Wars has provided me with the perfect jumping off point to make that hard decision.

I guess what they're doing is just throwing "stuff" against the wall to see what stuck, and Stan Lee was guilty of that, that's how we got the FF and Peter Parker. But the stuff they're coming up with just alienates me.



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Ex Marvel fan




Same here Im done.


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skimpson




Due to the stupefying numbers of changes that disregard continuity and classic characterization, I have only been following one Marvel and one DC title in the past couple of years. I have been pretty happy with this decision. I check sites like this to keep up on things and get a sense of what others think. I would encourage others that may be alienated to check out titles from the smaller companies instead of dropping comics altogether. I have been enjoying John Carter and Red Sonja myself but I am sure there are many other worthy titles. I also have been getting a great deal of Bronze Age comics. They often cost less then the current product and are a lot more fun to read.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Strange isn't a womanizer. But we all see what we want to see.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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steve




i stopped buying new comics a few years back due mostly to high prices and grindingly slow storylines. I still look at the marvel and dc websites every Monday, but as time goes on I see less and less that makes me want to run out and buy a comic book. I have a feeling they're just not too interested in appealing to the late 50s male demographic ;\)

I do still buy the occasional bargain bin silver age comic, and I have tons of beloved old comics at home to read whenever I get the urge. and I have many happy memories of comic books as a big part of my childhood ;\)


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Stuart




I did that few years back, completed all the runs I wanted as a kid, Avengers, Defenders, Champions and new X-Men (obviously still have holes as can't or won't pay too much for a comic book).

But that's done now.

I'm not interested in small press, did that with Image and gave away a huge stock of their comics when I moved home a few years ago.

I guess my tastes are just not being catered for. I love super-heroes, I love the costumes, the soap opera, the secret identities. I don't or can't see what's wrong with it. The argument about Supes having his pants on the outside always makes me laugh. The idea of a man wearing red briefs is ridiculous, yet you're prepared to suspend belief that a man can fly, has heat vision and can lift up a mountain? That's realistic to you, take the red pants away and put him in jeans, that'll make him more realistic. Sheesh. Cage has to wear a suit and loose the tiara? Why? Ahhh, As that's makes him more real? He has bullet proof skin he got from an experiment, none of that is realistic.

The whole idea of super heroes are proposterous, so just go with it. Don't try and ground it in realism.

They really want to increase sales, go back to cheap paper, go back to creators getting smaller salaries, aim them at kids, put them down to 50p a comic and circulation will go back up. I bet you. What under 10 has £20 a month to pay on comic books.

But as stated, no one wants my PoV. im out




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Daveym

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    I guess my tastes are just not being catered for. I love super-heroes, I love the costumes, the soap opera, the secret identities. I don't or can't see what's wrong with it. The argument about Supes having his pants on the outside always makes me laugh. The idea of a man wearing red briefs is ridiculous, yet you're prepared to suspend belief that a man can fly, has heat vision and can lift up a mountain? That's realistic to you, take the red pants away and put him in jeans, that'll make him more realistic. Sheesh. Cage has to wear a suit and loose the tiara? Why? Ahhh, As that's makes him more real? He has bullet proof skin he got from an experiment, none of that is realistic.


Quoted for truth. I couldn't agree more with you. \(beer\)



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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    The whole idea of super heroes are proposterous, so just go with it. Don't try and ground it in realism.

Agreed with this. I'm not very sure how many people know what realism is nowadays, anyway. "Reality TV?!" HA!


    Quote:
    They really want to increase sales, go back to cheap paper, go back to creators getting smaller salaries, aim them at kids, put them down to 50p a comic and circulation will go back up. I bet you. What under 10 has £20 a month to pay on comic books.

I was getting much more than that in allowance when I was 10 (40 years ago). And we were almost poor.

In the US, kids (ages 8-12) are spending about $40 billion per year of "their own money." There are about 10 million of them. That means they're getting about $4000 per year, on average, or $300 and change per month. This really doesn't count necessities that mommy and daddy are providing. They generally have the money. It's up to Marvel to exploit that and relieve them of it.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Stuart




I can't comment on US, I'm UK based.

I used to get £5 every two weeks, and for that I used to buy a comic for 10p down at the local book exchange (David's Books in Brighton if anyone is interested, used to be a whole selection from new comics to back issues of Dazzler, Rom, Spider-Woman, Marvel Triple Action, Marvel Illustrated. Hunting through the back issue trays searching for that missing all important issue).

But nowadays with the average comic ranging from £2 - £4, I can't see kids taking it as a hobby. But it's not only price but where you can buy them from. I started buying as I saw them in my local Newsagents, nowadays you have to hunt to find a comic shop, and all my non geek friends wouldn't even know where to start looking for one of those, so they're kids take up sport.

This whole argument over long runs being off putting to kids I also think is a misnomer, as a kid I loved the idea I was starting at issue 191 as there was all this history I could learn. And when you're a kid what's really the difference between 191 issues and 500. Yes you get up spikes from new #1s, but I just see this as providing a jumping off point for old collectors, rather than new jumping on points for new readers.

Look at the new 52, started strong, but I believe sales are now dropping, now they're trying to attract back old readers by trying to incorporate pre 52 history into their range, but they actually can't as they now have all these new histories that contradict old continuity. It Post crisis Hawkman on a wide line scale.

So I guess it's the current price point (imo) plus availability. Not the actual product. By trying to diversify their characters in a hope to attract new readers is wrong. You want new black, Asian, female readers, create new characters that reflect them and invest time into them. I don't believe that black readers don't buy Cap as Steve Rogers is white. They're trying to fix something that isn't broken and have alienated me, as stated their choice, their product. Just as its my choice not to buy.


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Nose Norton


Location: Plainville
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 6,626


I do the same. I was always a Marvel only kid growing up, but I find that nowadays I enjoy DC comics from the 70's and 80's much more than anything I've read from Marvel in the last 10 years.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    I can't comment on US, I'm UK based.

    I used to get £5 every two weeks, and for that I used to buy a comic for 10p down at the local book exchange (David's Books in Brighton if anyone is interested, used to be a whole selection from new comics to back issues of Dazzler, Rom, Spider-Woman, Marvel Triple Action, Marvel Illustrated. Hunting through the back issue trays searching for that missing all important issue).

It was $20(£30)/week for me (circa late-70s/1980). And I could buy almost everything Marvel printed for that $20, and probably have leftover.


    Quote:
    But nowadays with the average comic ranging from £2 - £4, I can't see kids taking it as a hobby. But it's not only price but where you can buy them from. I started buying as I saw them in my local Newsagents, nowadays you have to hunt to find a comic shop, and all my non geek friends wouldn't even know where to start looking for one of those, so they're kids take up sport.

I do agree that there was something special about the price of a comic book being close to that of candy. Since the 70s, comics have drifted further and further away from that, and with that, they've become more and more niche. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to return to those days, regardless of what the publishers change.

New Orleans has never had a problem when it comes to comics shops. At one time, before digital came about, there were as many as 12 comic shops (metro area is about 1 million people). These days, there are 4, 2 of which are within walking/biking distance of my home.

I'll just repeat one word: Digital. This is the only way to get kids reading comics again. Things like Marvel Unlimited are a kid's dream.


    Quote:
    This whole argument over long runs being off putting to kids I also think is a misnomer, as a kid I loved the idea I was starting at issue 191 as there was all this history I could learn. And when you're a kid what's really the difference between 191 issues and 500. Yes you get up spikes from new #1s, but I just see this as providing a jumping off point for old collectors, rather than new jumping on points for new readers.

I pretty much agree, here, although I can't say that I cared one way or another. I barely even thought about it as a kid. But yes, I loved delving into the histories. That said, a close friend of mine back then outright refused to "enter a story in middle," as he would say. He wasn't interested unless the cover read, "#1."




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Stuart




I think digital is just another thing to blame, when price point and availability is the answer.

I work in publishing and I've seen senior management kill themselves and their business by trying to take things digital as THE solution. It's not the answer, but agree that it's part of the answer. I don't know about the US but hardback books are increasing in sales in the UK.

Purely circumstantial evidence here, but in the tube into work I see less people on kindles and IPads than there were a few years ago. I would guesstimate, of the people reading, 70% of those are reading the Metro which is a free morning newspaper here and is available to pick up at all stations. So availability and you don't get much cheaper than free. But as I said no hard facts to back up my spurious claim.

Here's an idea, just write comics off as a loss leader, but use them as a way to try out new concepts and to keep brands alive for the next billion dollar blockbuster?

Still won't make happy, but at least it can keep the medium alive.


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    I work in publishing and I've seen senior management kill themselves and their business by trying to take things digital as THE solution. It's not the answer, but agree that it's part of the answer. I don't know about the US but hardback books are increasing in sales in the UK.

Yeah, there's been a slight increase, while ebook sales have plateaued.


    Quote:
    Purely circumstantial evidence here, but in the tube into work I see less people on kindles and IPads than there were a few years ago. I would guesstimate, of the people reading, 70% of those are reading the Metro which is a free morning newspaper here and is available to pick up at all stations. So availability and you don't get much cheaper than free. But as I said no hard facts to back up my spurious claim.

My experience is the opposite, but no facts. It's almost gotten to the point where almost everyone I know has a tablet (I do not though--I'm a laptop guy).

Daily newspapers are hanging by threads, except for the big ones. New Orleans recently pretty much lost theirs. It exists, but is run from out of the area and is a shell of what it used to be. It's primarily online now.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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Stuart




I would agree with newspapers. They're in disarray over here as well. I worked for a uk national one a few years ago. They had no strategy, had been taken completely surprise, reacted slowly and had no business strategy to deal with it and were trying desperately to get ahead of the curve and second guess the market, but failing. They were putting all their eggs all into digitising, but it was having no effect.

I mean why pay for content when you can get it for free, pay walls just pushed consumers elsewhere.

What they did have, like Marvel, was a loyal customer base and a strong brand. They would have been better concentrating on that market and driving their print and online content to that base rather than trying to diversify into a hit and miss digital marketplace.

Just like Marvel is not doing now


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Stuart




In addition they had the answer if they had just looked at their history. Every time they faced dwindling circulation they just dropped the price, and boom, circulation went up.

They may not be making as much per paper, but they sold shed loads more which in turned generated healthier profits


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The Black Guardian

Moderator

Location: Paragon City, RI
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


You cannot really look at history to judge what's happening now. The reason these things are failing is because there are better sources for news. And it's impossible to compete with free. Newspapers cannot afford to drop their price that much.

As for comics, they cannot really go back to cheaper paper. Their creators cannot really work cheaper. Etc.




City of Heroes is BACK!
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D. Strange




First off there is no logical reason they can't use cheaper paper. But it is salaries, always salaries. This is why there isn't ever much difference in price between physical and digital copies.

As for artists being paid less, well most of the increase in payment happened under Jim Shooter's watch. Prices did go up because of that. However, once accounted for inflation, Marvel comics are two times what they should be from 1989, after all the aid top creators.


There was actually a discussion about the price of comics on J.M. Dematteis website not too long ago, where even he the veteran of 40 years almost, was shocked at that and pointed out how ridiculous it was.

The truly disturbing thing is that Marvel and DC overlook .25 or .50 increases, while indie books like Image and Dark Horse who have much thinner profit margins still use them.

By the end of next year most Marvel comics will likely be $5.00. And the industry very well might not make into the next decade in any form. I don't hope for either of these things mind you, I'm just following the patterns which admittedly can change.


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Chris


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



Yeah, I'm just about done. No Marvel comics on my current pull list, and one, maybe two, DC comics. I'm buying mostly Transformer and Doctor Who comics now.



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