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Posted with Google Chrome 91.0.4472.124 on Windows 10
Posted with Google Chrome 91.0.4472.124 on Windows 10
Author
Billy


Member Since: Sat Apr 18, 2020


Marvel is clearly anti-American at this point. They hire people that want to get their political agenda published, not entertain the few readers they have left. I’ve been reading Marvel for close to 25 years and I can honestly say that I’m done with them. I won’t support their clear support for radicalism and crapping on this country. It’s not perfect, but a lot of men and women have died to keep us free and I won’t support a company that hates the freedoms we have.


Posted with Apple iPhone 14.0.3
zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I haven’t given up completely on current Marvel
Books, but I’ve been frustrated with the political bent of many of the books for a long time as well.

I will say I’m about as close as you can get to being done with Marvel as you can. I pick up two books monthly, and spend twice that monthly on back issues.


Posted with Apple iPhone 14.1.1
The Silver Surfer


Member Since: Fri Jul 17, 2020


Well, I certainly agree Marvel's writing has not been top notch, and I have dropped many books myself.

But... they have had issues with America for like 50 years.

The X-Men's most recurring story point hinges on the idea that the U.S. will eventually build death camps for them. They have even started down that road several times. Operation: Zero Tolerance, the 1980s passing of the Mutant Registration Act.

Captain America is the best example. How many times has the U.S. government gone up against the symbol of the American Dream? I'll tell you once a decade. That is not even the only types of stories like that

In the early 70s Nixon was shown to be a LITERAL supervillain. Before that the same writer, Steven Englehart, introduced 50s Cap, whose who'll thing was being crazy, racist, and jingoistic.

Same Cap showed up again as a literal Neo-Nazi. Then again in Brubaker's run, where he endorsed a third part candidate pushed on by a feeling of what America should be and theory of what it was. And I remember the TEA Party being angry about that.

Inn the first story of the Marvel Knights Captain America run, the terrorist that attacked a small town was shown to have taken up the life because of the U.S. military destroying his home.

In the 80s, the U.S. military literally gave the title and shield to another person, who was not mentally stable.

It is all over the books though.

In the most beloved Daredevil story of all time, a mentally ill Vet who performed secret (and illegal) military operations on behalf of Reagan, was talked into blowing up an NYC neighborhood based on Wilson Fisk's faux-patriotism talk. Let's not even get into Elektra: Assassin.

For the most of rest of the decade, Daredevil was written by Ann Nocenti, who was one of the most politically fueled writers Marvel ever had. She even got hate mail for her first story being too liberal.

Remember in the 2000s when Nick Fury, the ultimate good soldier, was shown to be kind of crazy in the name of national security in Secret War?

Stan Lee started the whole damn thing. The Hulk's greatest villain is the U.S. military, who has known since 1966 Bruce Banner their former co-worker, and still try to capture or kill him. Thunderbolt Ross is the jingoistic nightmare of every hippie ever.

He even wrote a Captain America comic (Hey, that guy is back), where for the first five pages Cap thought about how he should have "battled less and questioned more."

Speaking of hippies... the 70s was FAR more radical. Steve Gerber, especially in Man-Thing and Howard the Duck but also Marvel Two-in-One, Daredevil, and Captain America, constantly showed how many issues he had with American government and culture.

Expand it out beyond just America and Jim Starlin is the BEST example. His Warlock is just one big shot at the Catholic church.


I agree the writing has suffered. It meanders. It is lazy. It often lacks both style and substance. They don't know how to mix there ideas with story well. and Boring. Good God are so many of them boring, with boring characters, and boring plots.

But radical? Anti-American? pushing agenda? Not even close to being new or as aggressive as in the past. This is more like a calculated marketing campaign to get twitter folk to buy the books, that is doomed to fail.


Also... Of what right is Marvel advocating the loss? Like I said, I am not reading many books, but it certainly has not been in any fo teh books I read.


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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,220


Like it or not, Marvel is reflecting the overall mood of it's readers. OVERALL, obviously not all of them. You find yourself in the minority now as a Marvel Reader. Fine.

Don't buy the books. You have other things you like for your entertainment, right? Fox News? Newsmax? OAN? Gettr? You have plenty to occupy yourself. Plenty of stuff that echoes your complaints, plenty that share your perspective. Plenty of stuff that GAVE you your perspective.

I don't like a lot of the Marvel books right now either, and therefore I don't buy those books. I'm down to two titles, and when Ewing leaves Hulk, it might be one title.

However, I'm not unhinged over it. I'm not going around saying stupid and ridiculous things like MARVEL HATES OUR FREEDOM, because that's ridiculous. I'd sound deranged and hysterical.

The "Community" board is full of people who sound just like you, including the Mods. You'll always have a home on Comicboards, just maybe just on that one board.


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zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


That got really personal really fast!

Billy was expressing his frustration with Marvel as a whole. Sure, all caps may be a bit much, but he didn't call out any individuals on this board, or even at Marvel.

The Silver Surfer and I each discussed his overall perspective.

When you said that Marvel is reflecting the overall mood of it's readers, it sounds like you agree with his general premise that there is a general political slant, and it sounds like his final decision to stop reading the books appeals to you, so why be so insulting?


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Billy


Member Since: Sat Apr 18, 2020


I’m not sure why my opinion seems to have driven you over the edge but it’s not a good look. It’s typical angry liberal 101 to hit the usual suspects of Conservative news/opinion tv as if CNN and basically every other news outlet aren’t liberal biased. If you respect the country you live in and the people that have fought and died and been maimed for it, then you would take issue with Marvel/Disney’s stance. It’s that simple. Your verbal vomit and personal attacks don’t change that. You have no data to back your assertions and you just seem angry. Grow up.


Posted with Apple iPhone 14.0.3
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,009



    Quote:
    Well, I certainly agree Marvel's writing has not been top notch, and I have dropped many books myself.



    Quote:
    But... they have had issues with America for like 50 years.



    Quote:
    The X-Men's most recurring story point hinges on the idea that the U.S. will eventually build death camps for them. They have even started down that road several times. Operation: Zero Tolerance, the 1980s passing of the Mutant Registration Act.



    Quote:
    Captain America is the best example. How many times has the U.S. government gone up against the symbol of the American Dream? I'll tell you once a decade. That is not even the only types of stories like that



    Quote:
    In the early 70s Nixon was shown to be a LITERAL supervillain. Before that the same writer, Steven Englehart, introduced 50s Cap, whose who'll thing was being crazy, racist, and jingoistic.



    Quote:
    Same Cap showed up again as a literal Neo-Nazi. Then again in Brubaker's run, where he endorsed a third part candidate pushed on by a feeling of what America should be and theory of what it was. And I remember the TEA Party being angry about that.



    Quote:
    Inn the first story of the Marvel Knights Captain America run, the terrorist that attacked a small town was shown to have taken up the life because of the U.S. military destroying his home.



    Quote:
    In the 80s, the U.S. military literally gave the title and shield to another person, who was not mentally stable.



    Quote:
    It is all over the books though.



    Quote:
    In the most beloved Daredevil story of all time, a mentally ill Vet who performed secret (and illegal) military operations on behalf of Reagan, was talked into blowing up an NYC neighborhood based on Wilson Fisk's faux-patriotism talk. Let's not even get into Elektra: Assassin.



    Quote:
    For the most of rest of the decade, Daredevil was written by Ann Nocenti, who was one of the most politically fueled writers Marvel ever had. She even got hate mail for her first story being too liberal.



    Quote:
    Remember in the 2000s when Nick Fury, the ultimate good soldier, was shown to be kind of crazy in the name of national security in Secret War?



    Quote:
    Stan Lee started the whole damn thing. The Hulk's greatest villain is the U.S. military, who has known since 1966 Bruce Banner their former co-worker, and still try to capture or kill him. Thunderbolt Ross is the jingoistic nightmare of every hippie ever.



    Quote:
    He even wrote a Captain America comic (Hey, that guy is back), where for the first five pages Cap thought about how he should have "battled less and questioned more."



    Quote:
    Speaking of hippies... the 70s was FAR more radical. Steve Gerber, especially in Man-Thing and Howard the Duck but also Marvel Two-in-One, Daredevil, and Captain America, constantly showed how many issues he had with American government and culture.



    Quote:
    Expand it out beyond just America and Jim Starlin is the BEST example. His Warlock is just one big shot at the Catholic church.



    Quote:

    I agree the writing has suffered. It meanders. It is lazy. It often lacks both style and substance. They don't know how to mix there ideas with story well. and Boring. Good God are so many of them boring, with boring characters, and boring plots.



    Quote:
    But radical? Anti-American? pushing agenda? Not even close to being new or as aggressive as in the past. This is more like a calculated marketing campaign to get twitter folk to buy the books, that is doomed to fail.



    Quote:

    Also... Of what right is Marvel advocating the loss? Like I said, I am not reading many books, but it certainly has not been in any fo teh books I read.


Come to think of it, Captain America Comics #1, which showed Captain America punching Adolf Hitler a year before Pearl Harbor, angered quite a number of Americans who opposed the (liberal) Roosevelt administration's foreign policy and wanted to keep the US from going to war against Nazi Germany. They even sent threats and hate mail to Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. So Marvel had been controversial for a good eight decades now...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America#Golden_Age





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The Silver Surfer


Member Since: Fri Jul 17, 2020



    Quote:
    I’m not sure why my opinion seems to have driven you over the edge but it’s not a good look. It’s typical angry liberal 101 to hit the usual suspects of Conservative news/opinion tv as if CNN and basically every other news outlet aren’t liberal biased. If you respect the country you live in and the people that have fought and died and been maimed for it, then you would take issue with Marvel/Disney’s stance. It’s that simple. Your verbal vomit and personal attacks don’t change that. You have no data to back your assertions and you just seem angry. Grow up.



I'm not sure you have the high ground on maturity you seem to think you do.

You are implication any critique of America is disrespect for people who died for the country, or that you hate the country.

You go after them for not having any evidence, but where exactly is your evidence that anyone you have claimed hates America or vets (still not sure how that even came up)? That anyone at Marvel or Disney wants to take away rights? that was just weird.

You claim they were pulling from "angry liberal 101" but you seem to be going from remedial conservative persecution complex.

Your words seem eerily similar to what I just found out yesterday Dean Cain said days before (I think, the internet is weird and dumb at times) about the new Captain America mini series.

Now,I have nothing against Dean Cain as a man, a friend of mine worked on a movie he shot here in Michigan and said he was every nice guy, a very important aspect to a human being that should supersede politics in the day to day. However, after criticizing it, he openly admitted to having not read the comic, which is dumb to do.

The reason why I bring up Mr. Cain is, as I said there is a bizarre similarity in words and ideas. And as someone who HAS read the first issue, that is what people should be upset about, a lack of originality in the story.

I don't know if Dean Cain or that issue spurned on your original post, but the lack of creativity is certainly there in some capacity, and as I said in my original response to you, that is what is the real thing to be upset about.

There are plenty of valid reasons to complain modern Marvel. But a perceived NEW idea of political commentary is a weird one.

And making a scene about not buying them is even weirder, since no one is forcing you to buy them.

I just wanted to get those thoughts in, because I am 60% sure the moderator will lock this discussion and says to take it to the community board.

Normally, I would not have gotten into this, but last year people following B.S. claims tried to throw out my votes five times, the the last was with was bursting into the capital to stop certification, so my patience with people claiming they care about America and what people died for is a little thin these days.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 88.0 on Windows 10
Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,316




    Quote:

      Quote:
      I’m not sure why my opinion seems to have driven you over the edge but it’s not a good look. It’s typical angry liberal 101 to hit the usual suspects of Conservative news/opinion tv as if CNN and basically every other news outlet aren’t liberal biased. If you respect the country you live in and the people that have fought and died and been maimed for it, then you would take issue with Marvel/Disney’s stance. It’s that simple. Your verbal vomit and personal attacks don’t change that. You have no data to back your assertions and you just seem angry. Grow up.



    Quote:

    I'm not sure you have the high ground on maturity you seem to think you do.



    Quote:
    You are implication any critique of America is disrespect for people who died for the country, or that you hate the country.



    Quote:
    You go after them for not having any evidence, but where exactly is your evidence that anyone you have claimed hates America pr vets (still not sure how that even came up) does? That anyone at Marvel or Disney wants to take away rights? that was just weird.



    Quote:
    You claim they were pulling from "angry liberal 101" but you seem to be going from remedial conservative persecution complex.



    Quote:
    Your words seem eerily similar to what I just found out yesterday Dean Cain said days before (I think, the internet is weird and dumb at times) about the new Captain America mini series.



    Quote:
    Now,I have nothing against Dean Cain as a man, a friend of mine worked on a movie he shot here in Michigan and said he was every nice guy, a very important aspect to a human being that should politics in the day to day. However, after criticizing it, he openly admitted to having not read the comic, which is dumb to do.



    Quote:
    The reason why I bring up Mr. Cain is, as I said there is a bizarre similarity in words and ideas. And as someone who HAS read the first issue, that is what people should be upset about, a lack of originality in the story.



    Quote:
    I don't know if Dean Cain or that issue spurned on your original post, but the lack of creativity is certainly there in some capacity, and as I said in my original response to you, that is what is the real thing to be upset about.



    Quote:
    There are plenty of valid reasons to complain modern Marvel. But a perceived NEW idea of political commentary is a weird one.



    Quote:
    And making a scene about not buying them is even weirder, since no one is forcing you to buy them.



    Quote:
    I just wanted to get those thoughts in, because I am 60% sure the moderator will lock this discussion and says to take it to the community board.


I'm getting close to that, and I'll be watching everyone, but Billy in particular closely, to make sure everyone stays in line.


    Quote:
    Normally, I would not have gotten into this, but last year people following B.S. claims tried to throw out my votes five times, the the last was with was bursting into the capital to stop certification, so my patience with people claiming they care about America and what people died for is a little thin these days.


I like your gift for words, you said all this better than I could.

For the record, I don't mind at all if a comic book/movie/tv show etc. gives me something to think about, be it of liberal OR conservative ideology. My only real concern is that the creators are fair to the issues they raise.

For the purposes of this board, I'll ask the same of the posters here. So far the only one stepping out of bounds had been Billy.






Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,316




    Quote:
    I’m not sure why my opinion seems to have driven you over the edge but it’s not a good look. It’s typical angry liberal 101 to hit the usual suspects of Conservative news/opinion tv as if CNN and basically every other news outlet aren’t liberal biased. If you respect the country you live in and the people that have fought and died and been maimed for it, then you would take issue with Marvel/Disney’s stance. It’s that simple. Your verbal vomit and personal attacks don’t change that. You have no data to back your assertions and you just seem angry. Grow up.


Coming here sounding like you want to start a fight isn't a good look either. You sound like "typical angry" conservative "101". If you have specific examples where you feel a creator was not fair to an issue opened in a Marvel book, TV show, or film, go ahead and post it. If not please take it somewhere else.





Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,009



    Quote:
    I’m not sure why my opinion seems to have driven you over the edge but it’s not a good look. It’s typical angry liberal 101 to hit the usual suspects of Conservative news/opinion tv as if CNN and basically every other news outlet aren’t liberal biased. If you respect the country you live in and the people that have fought and died and been maimed for it, then you would take issue with Marvel/Disney’s stance. It’s that simple. Your verbal vomit and personal attacks don’t change that. You have no data to back your assertions and you just seem angry. Grow up.


For starters, you don't say in what ways you see Marvel (and now Disney) hating freedoms or being Anti-American. Also, what country are they supposed to "respect"? Apparently not the United States of the present day, the country where a clear majority of voters chose the candidates supported by the "radicals" and "liberals" you don't like in the last four presidential elections.

That people fought, suffered and died for their country does not prove that their country and its government is right, let alone above criticism. If that was so, someone could demand that Stalin's Soviet Union should be "respected" and not criticized because so many more people died defending it in World War 2. And another funny thing: many American conservatives idolize the people who fought against their country in defense of slavery during the Civil War. Maybe it is because they see them as fellow conservatives, while many Republicans of that era were excorciated as "dangerous radicals" and "unpatriotic" by their more conservative contemporaries.

Also, a lot of the people who fought and died for America did so because they had no choice - they were drafted into the armed forces, and quite a few had to go into the field without having the right to vote, either because they were too young or because of racial discrimination. And just because people fought in a war does not mean that they approved of it. Look e.g. at the autobiography of the second Republican president, U.S. Grant, which he opens by stating the reasons why he was of the opinion that the Mexican-American War (in which he had participated) was unjust und unprovoked. And of course you can't automatically assume that these people fought and died for your view of how America should be and not for causes espoused by present-day "liberals" and "radicals".




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,220


I retired from the Navy honorably after 21 years, 4 months. I know a lot more about this country and our troops than you learned from Fox News.

Also, it's Typical Derp Conservative 101 to label ANY response you get, even a relatively mild one like mine, as "over the edge, angry, etc". It's how you avoid coming up with any kind of actual, reasonable counter argument.

But then, we both know what you're really doing, don't we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g




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Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,220


From Billy's post:
"I won’t support their clear support for radicalism and crapping on this country. It’s not perfect, but a lot of men and women have died to keep us free and I won’t support a company that hates the freedoms we have"

From my response:
"However, I'm not unhinged over it. I'm not going around saying stupid and ridiculous things like MARVEL HATES OUR FREEDOM, because that's ridiculous. I'd sound deranged and hysterical."
Was that the part you found insulting?

What does it add to the conversation, exactly, for someone to come here and broadcast their politics? Especially in such a derp way?

There have been several people and groups in the past few years who have been accused of "disrespecting the troops" or "hating our freedoms". In every case it is shown NOT to be the case, so I'm too sick of it to tolerate it from new guys who come along at random. I was a troop. My friends and co-workers were and are the troops. This performative accusation about "disrespecting the troops" seems always to come from the same place, the pulpit of the American right-wing media and it's fans. That's a bad place. Those people never did anything for us troops beyond an occasional photo op for themselves. It's just an accusation meant to further the divide.

I doubt that it's a coincidence that Billy posted his complaints the same day that FOX News ran a segment complaining about Ta-Nehisi Coates' work on Captain America.

I officially retired from the Navy 2 years ago, after 21 years and 4 months. I know a lot more about our country, history, and military than whatever the MAGA crowd is learning from Fox and OAN.

So, I don't give the Billies any regard when they come around peddling their grievances, fishing for validation, and trying to recruit like minded individuals. I might give them a response, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g


Posted with Google Chrome 91.0.4472.124 on Windows 10
zeus


Location: Plano, IL
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



    Quote:
    From my response:
    "However, I'm not unhinged over it. I'm not going around saying stupid and ridiculous things like MARVEL HATES OUR FREEDOM, because that's ridiculous. I'd sound deranged and hysterical."
    Was that the part you found insulting?


Considering you called him unhinged, stupid, ridiculous, deranged and hysterical, this was part of it, yes.

However, has Billy done himself any favors in his reply to you? Absolutely not.


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Clarence


Member Since: Fri Jun 05, 2020
Posts: 78


He's simply the liberal other side of the same coin.


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Trent Trueheart


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,121


What do you hope to get from people with a post like this? I can't help but feel like does the opposite of what you hope to accomplish. If you want Marvel to change, you'd be better of promoting the comics you actually like.

Honestly, I think negative posts like these just help to convince those with "agendas" that they are right which means they are going to continue to push their "agendas." I think it also helps to convince some people to check out these comics to see what all the fuss it about. If you really want to see change, stop complaining about what you don't like. There is a reason they say there's no such thing as bad publicity. As long as people are talking about whatever, it keeps it in the public consciousness. Not talking about it would be the kiss of death.


Posted with Mozilla Firefox 89.0 on Windows 10
Menshevik


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,009



    Quote:

      Quote:
      From my response:
      "However, I'm not unhinged over it. I'm not going around saying stupid and ridiculous things like MARVEL HATES OUR FREEDOM, because that's ridiculous. I'd sound deranged and hysterical."
      Was that the part you found insulting?



    Quote:
    Considering you called him unhinged, stupid, ridiculous, deranged and hysterical, this was part of it, yes.



    Quote:
    However, has Billy done himself any favors in his reply to you? Absolutely not.


I think you're not being as even-handed as you like to think you are. Essentially you are saying that if someone makes extreme and hateful comments about a group you're not allowed to call him (or her) out on it because qualifying these comments as ridiculous, hysterical etc. constitutes an ad personam attack on this person in your eyes. How does attacking a group NOT mean attacking its individual members? I don't see how one shouldn't be allowed to call someone a racist if s/he voices racism but doesn't point the finger at specific individuals. That, IMHO, would just be silly, because many racists prefer not to think of the objects of their hate as individuals but as part of an anonymous mass. Or would it be okay for me to say something like "people who name themselves after pagan deities are anti-American, anti-Christian and hate our freedoms" because I didn't specifically mention Greek deities, let alone the head of their Pantheon? ;\-\)

I'll also note that Billy and his defenders seem to think it sufficient to label Quantum a liberal to dismiss his arguments out of hand. And maybe you are giving Billy too much credit anyway - maybe he didn't name individuals on this board or at Marvel simply because he didn't care about the names of the individual members of what he sees as a giant liberal and radical conspiracy against America when he made de his original post...



Posted with Mozilla Firefox 89.0 on Windows 10
Quantum


Member Since: Sun Dec 21, 2008
Posts: 2,220




Posted with Google Chrome 91.0.4472.124 on Windows 10
Clarence


Member Since: Fri Jun 05, 2020
Posts: 78


Seeing your own hypocrisy must not be pleasant. It stings, doesn't it?




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Happy Hogan 

Manager

Location: Northern Virginia
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,316



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