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Jeremiah Ecks





Remember Todd McFarlane's Spawn? Remember when Marvel, a) smarting because McFarlane had given them the finger, and b) Spawn was being successful, decided to homage (i.e. blatantly rip off) Spawn into a new character called Nightwatch, and he debuted in a Terry Kavanagh comic (which was a sequel to a Howard Mackie 'epic' - so basically, Nightwatch was doomed to fail from the start). Oh, and Nightwatch also starred in Maximum Carnage. Seriously, the guy didn't get a break - and when he did get a solo series, he debuted in the mad 90's where series were being created and cancelled like wild-fire.

I'm not defending Nightwatch, by the way - he wasn't very interesting, and I would have preferred to have had a Cardiac series to love, but times' a great healer. Anyway, my question is this:

Nightwatch died in The Clone Saga. It was a pretty ignoble end, dying in an issue of Spidey Unlimited and killed by perennial jobber El Toro Negro (so, he debuted in mediocrity, he lived in mediocrity and he died in mediocrity too).

The problem is, Nightwatch can't die - in his origin story, it is revealed that the future version of Nightwatch came back in time to give powers to his earlier self. Now, ignoring the massive paradox this causes (where the hel did Nightwatch's powers originally come from anyway?), a further paradox is caused by Nightwatch dying... and never being able to come back in time and... etc. Sure, we can say it was Nightwatch 615 who came to 616 and gave Trench his powers... but it seems a bit cheap, even if it is a catch-all.

Several Wiki's say this:
Nightwatch survived but knew he had been fatally wounded, and used the last of his costume's power to go back and time and try to warn his past self of what would happen, to keep him from meeting this ignoble end, and try to prevent his girlfriend's death in the process. Ultimately, he got sucked into a fight with terrorists and ended up fulfilling the time loop, dying before he could warn himself.

Now, I like this explanation as it's tidy and makes sense to me. The thing is, I can't find a single shred of evidence to back it up, and Wiki-Whatever isn't exactly reliable as far as sources go.

Can anybody help me here and a) tell me how Nightwatch got his powers, beyond 'future self' (so where did the 'future self' get them?) and b) whether this above scenario really happened, or did Nightwatch's death create a massive plot hole that will never be resolved (well, it's as likely to be resolved as Who is F.A.C.A.D.E?).

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who would love to do more posts on obscure Spidey characters. Just to put smiles on our faces. Cardiac next, please. \:\)



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The Green Ninjas




I have a bizarre, morbid-fascination with Nightwatch, despite his debut storyline literally making my brain hurt.

I tracked down his entire solo series the other year, but I still have to get around to reading it all, which I need to make time to do, because the final issues have that 'Warbringer' guy who's just so 1990s it's awesome.

But remember how he randomly showed up towards the end of Maximum Carnage? And in the final chapter, he and Morbius are just sitting on a rooftop? I know I'd buy a Nightwatch & Morbius book. Especially if they just sit on rooftops and complain about their lives.

> Nightwatch died in The Clone Saga. It was a pretty ignoble end, dying in an issue of Spidey Unlimited and killed by perennial jobber El Toro Negro (so, he debuted in mediocrity, he lived in mediocrity and he died in mediocrity too).

I did actually like that issue, despite it killing Nightwatch, and Polestar. The reveal of who was sponsoring Spidey in 'The Great Game' was nice, and El Toro Rojo got an impressively nasty comeuppance.

Isn't that also the issue where Robbie sees Peter and Spidey-Ben together and was all shocked, like he thought he had it all figured out?

> The problem is, Nightwatch can't die - in his origin story, it is revealed that the future version of Nightwatch came back in time to give powers to his earlier self. Now, ignoring the massive paradox this causes (where the hel did Nightwatch's powers originally come from anyway?), a further paradox is caused by Nightwatch dying... and never being able to come back in time and... etc. Sure, we can say it was Nightwatch 615 who came to 616 and gave Trench his powers... but it seems a bit cheap, even if it is a catch-all.

> Several Wiki's say this:
> Nightwatch survived but knew he had been fatally wounded, and used the last of his costume's power to go back and time and try to warn his past self of what would happen, to keep him from meeting this ignoble end, and try to prevent his girlfriend's death in the process. Ultimately, he got sucked into a fight with terrorists and ended up fulfilling the time loop, dying before he could warn himself.

> Now, I like this explanation as it's tidy and makes sense to me. The thing is, I can't find a single shred of evidence to back it up, and Wiki-Whatever isn't exactly reliable as far as sources go.

> Can anybody help me here and a) tell me how Nightwatch got his powers, beyond 'future self' (so where did the 'future self' get them?) and b) whether this above scenario really happened,

Well, it's certainly not ever been addressed in a comic, but it might have been done in a handbook, for the sake of wrapping up the time-loop, but nothing I've ever seen would suggest Nightwatch was capable of time-travel under his own power.

> or did Nightwatch's death create a massive plot hole that will never be resolved (well, it's as likely to be resolved as Who is F.A.C.A.D.E?).

I'm going with "Nightwatch's death left the time-loop incomplete, ripping a hole in the fabric of space/time, that will gradually grow to consume the planet".


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Comp 

Moderator

Location: Owings Mills, MD
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,976




    Quote:
    I have a bizarre, morbid-fascination with Nightwatch, despite his debut storyline literally making my brain hurt.



    Quote:
    I tracked down his entire solo series the other year, but I still have to get around to reading it all, which I need to make time to do, because the final issues have that 'Warbringer' guy who's just so 1990s it's awesome.


Moreover, both he and Nightwatch follow the so-very-handy formula to nineties names:

Intimidating single-syllable word + random verb and/or object = AWESOME CHARACTER

So other effective nineties names could be, I don't know, Darkkill, or Bloodstab, or Deadpool.

-Comp







My first novel, The Listeners, is in bookstores now! Check it out at www.harrisondemchick.com!
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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



    Quote:
    I have a bizarre, morbid-fascination with Nightwatch, despite his debut storyline literally making my brain hurt.


It was pretty clearly a standard 90s Kavanagh (or Mackie, who did it elsewhere) Spider-Man plot -- set up an intriguing, albeit convoluted mystery before you've worked out the solution and hope you stay on the book long enough to figure out a proper one.

See also: "Who is FACADE?","What's the skeleton in the smokestack?", "Who is the new evil Green Goblin?", "Why do P and Q want that darn cat?", and "When did Hammerhead suffer the second head trauma that convinced him to grow that awful goatee?". Some were eventually answered in painful and unsatisfactory ways, and others outright abandoned.


    Quote:
    I tracked down his entire solo series the other year, but I still have to get around to reading it all, which I need to make time to do, because the final issues have that 'Warbringer' guy who's just so 1990s it's awesome.


I preferred Flashpoint, but he was killed off too quickly to really stick.


    Quote:
    But remember how he randomly showed up towards the end of Maximum Carnage? And in the final chapter, he and Morbius are just sitting on a rooftop? I know I'd buy a Nightwatch & Morbius book. Especially if they just sit on rooftops and complain about their lives.


Ah the 90s, when every rooftop in Manhattan had to be reserved weeks in advance by brooding, dark vigilantes haunted by Byronesque pasts.


    Quote:
    > Nightwatch died in The Clone Saga. It was a pretty ignoble end, dying in an issue of Spidey Unlimited and killed by perennial jobber El Toro Negro (so, he debuted in mediocrity, he lived in mediocrity and he died in mediocrity too).



    Quote:
    I did actually like that issue, despite it killing Nightwatch, and Polestar. The reveal of who was sponsoring Spidey in 'The Great Game' was nice, and El Toro Rojo got an impressively nasty comeuppance.


Plus it actually made the motivation behind the Game itself sensible and clever. Which is why Nicieza reviving it in Thunderbolts just to bring back Joystick never really worked for me.


    Quote:
    Isn't that also the issue where Robbie sees Peter and Spidey-Ben together and was all shocked, like he thought he had it all figured out?


Yep!


    Quote:
    > The problem is, Nightwatch can't die - in his origin story, it is revealed that the future version of Nightwatch came back in time to give powers to his earlier self. Now, ignoring the massive paradox this causes (where the hel did Nightwatch's powers originally come from anyway?), a further paradox is caused by Nightwatch dying... and never being able to come back in time and... etc. Sure, we can say it was Nightwatch 615 who came to 616 and gave Trench his powers... but it seems a bit cheap, even if it is a catch-all.



    Quote:
    > Several Wiki's say this:
    > Nightwatch survived but knew he had been fatally wounded, and used the last of his costume's power to go back and time and try to warn his past self of what would happen, to keep him from meeting this ignoble end, and try to prevent his girlfriend's death in the process. Ultimately, he got sucked into a fight with terrorists and ended up fulfilling the time loop, dying before he could warn himself.



    Quote:
    > Now, I like this explanation as it's tidy and makes sense to me. The thing is, I can't find a single shred of evidence to back it up, and Wiki-Whatever isn't exactly reliable as far as sources go.


There's also the way that, at that time, Marvel's usual stance was that time-travel involved alternate timelines. So the Nightwatch who made it back to 616 might simply have been from a different timeline where he survived the Great Game and died in some other fashion.


    Quote:
    > Can anybody help me here and a) tell me how Nightwatch got his powers, beyond 'future self' (so where did the 'future self' get them?) and b) whether this above scenario really happened,



    Quote:
    Well, it's certainly not ever been addressed in a comic, but it might have been done in a handbook, for the sake of wrapping up the time-loop, but nothing I've ever seen would suggest Nightwatch was capable of time-travel under his own power.


That's the thing -- how in Zod's name did Kavanagh plan to make that work...ever?


    Quote:
    > or did Nightwatch's death create a massive plot hole that will never be resolved (well, it's as likely to be resolved as Who is F.A.C.A.D.E?).


That's it! FACADE beat Nightwatch to death with Rosebud, the time sled from Walt Simonson's FF run! And also FACADE was a mirror-universe version of the Looter, who doesn't have a goatee and pathologically hates anything resembling a meteorite. He hated Nightwatch for handling meteorites during his epic battle with...FLASHPOINT!!!


    Quote:
    I'm going with "Nightwatch's death left the time-loop incomplete, ripping a hole in the fabric of space/time, that will gradually grow to consume the planet".


Luckily, Carnage throws a baby into it just to see what will happen, and that somehow fixes things. And that baby grows up to be....Terry Kavanagh. Who grows up even more and becomes Cardiaxe II, the even grittier evil version of Cardiac.




- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
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Jeremiah Ecks






    Quote:
    It was pretty clearly a standard 90s Kavanagh (or Mackie, who did it elsewhere) Spider-Man plot -- set up an intriguing, albeit convoluted mystery before you've worked out the solution and hope you stay on the book long enough to figure out a proper one.


Oh, dear goodness, yes. \:\(


    Quote:
    See also: "Who is FACADE?","What's the skeleton in the smokestack?", "Who is the new evil Green Goblin?", "Why do P and Q want that darn cat?", and "When did Hammerhead suffer the second head trauma that convinced him to grow that awful goatee?".


See also: No thanks. \:\) The 'Evil Goblin' one being one that was uber-disappointing, and very cheap. I think the whole 'mystery' Goblin was then pretty much dead on its feet so that Menace's debut lacked a bit of punch, despite it being a fairly decent mystery.


    Quote:
    Plus it actually made the motivation behind the Game itself sensible and clever. Which is why Nicieza reviving it in Thunderbolts just to bring back Joystick never really worked for me.


To be fair, any reason to bring Joystick into a book is good enough reason for me. I love Joystick. Where is she now?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Isn't that also the issue where Robbie sees Peter and Spidey-Ben together and was all shocked, like he thought he had it all figured out?


    Quote:
    Yep!


So by the time Civil Bore hits, Robbie is again convinced that Spidey isn't Peter and vice versa. I always felt uncomfortable with Robbie denying he knew - clearly, he did. Why did he get Ken Ellis to quash the Parker story when Ken Ellis figured it out?


    Quote:
    There's also the way that, at that time, Marvel's usual stance was that time-travel involved alternate timelines. So the Nightwatch who made it back to 616 might simply have been from a different timeline where he survived the Great Game and died in some other fashion.


Yeah, like I said in the OP, that makes sense somewhat but then you have another problem - how did that Nightwatch get his powers? It's never really explained, but if the Wiki article comes from a reliable source, I can buy it - it then creates a newer problem of 'where does the suit originally come from'? It can't circle in a time loop forever - it's against the rules of entropy for a start. ;\)


    Quote:
    That's the thing -- how in Zod's name did Kavanagh plan to make that work...ever?


Come on. Kavanagh. How did he think anything was ever going to work?


    Quote:
    That's it! FACADE beat Nightwatch to death with Rosebud, the time sled from Walt Simonson's FF run! And also FACADE was a mirror-universe version of the Looter, who doesn't have a goatee and pathologically hates anything resembling a meteorite. He hated Nightwatch for handling meteorites during his epic battle with...FLASHPOINT!!!


Hmm, I think I have a copy of the above issue you're mentioning somewhere, with my cheat codes to bring Aeris back from the dead... \:\)


    Quote:
    Luckily, Carnage throws a baby into it just to see what will happen, and that somehow fixes things. And that baby grows up to be....Terry Kavanagh. Who grows up even more and becomes Cardiaxe II, the even grittier evil version of Cardiac.


That is... upsetting. As it stands I can't get my hands on Nightwatch, where Cardiaxe shows up - is it worth tracking down, seeing as I am a BIG Cardiac fan?

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who thinks it could be muck-rubbish, and hopes you tell him otherwise.



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Jeremiah Ecks






    Quote:
    I have a bizarre, morbid-fascination with Nightwatch, despite his debut storyline literally making my brain hurt.


Look, with all due respect dude, you think Macendale is the better Hobgoblin. We already know you're crazy. \:\) \:\) \:\) \:\)
Joking aside, Nightwatch is clearly Spawn-Lite, but like any character, there aren't bad characters - just badly written ones - and Nightwatch, in the right hand, could have been interesting enough. I would have liked to have seen him in a team book as a Vision-style character.


    Quote:
    I tracked down his entire solo series the other year, but I still have to get around to reading it all, which I need to make time to do, because the final issues have that 'Warbringer' guy who's just so 1990s it's awesome.


Uhm... That is the first and last time 1990s and awesome will be used in the same sentence again. \:\)
Although personally, I think the 90's are underrated and are chock full of good comics.


    Quote:
    But remember how he randomly showed up towards the end of Maximum Carnage? And in the final chapter, he and Morbius are just sitting on a rooftop? I know I'd buy a Nightwatch & Morbius book. Especially if they just sit on rooftops and complain about their lives.


I particularly loathe Morbius with a strong passion, so count me out. But I remember Nightwatch showing up - it was the first time I ever saw him, busting in to save Venom at the Statue of Liberty. I didn't know who the hel he was, so I was like 'why has this guy randomly appeared out of nowhere?'. Plus I was reading the parts out of order which doesn't help either.


    Quote:
    I did actually like that issue, despite it killing Nightwatch, and Polestar. The reveal of who was sponsoring Spidey in 'The Great Game' was nice, and El Toro Rojo got an impressively nasty comeuppance.


I don't remember the issue beyond Polestar and Nightwatch dying. I remember thinking Nightwatch's death was very cheap but worth killing someone to make the game look good. But Nightwatch looked stronger than someone like ETN taking him out, frankly. So I don't remember Spidey's Sponsor. Was it JJJ?


    Quote:
    Well, it's certainly not ever been addressed in a comic, but it might have been done in a handbook, for the sake of wrapping up the time-loop, but nothing I've ever seen would suggest Nightwatch was capable of time-travel under his own power.


Well, that's the interesting thing isn't it? We don't know anything about the suit, really.


    Quote:
    I'm going with "Nightwatch's death left the time-loop incomplete, ripping a hole in the fabric of space/time, that will gradually grow to consume the planet".


Then Galvatron will stand there, scream a fair bit, have his face blasted off, created carnage in the name of Furmanism until the hole consumes him and the Time Wars end.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who can't resist to push his favourite TF of all time. \:\)



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The Green Ninjas




> > I have a bizarre, morbid-fascination with Nightwatch, despite his debut storyline literally making my brain hurt.

> Look, with all due respect dude, you think Macendale is the better Hobgoblin. We already know you're crazy. \:\) \:\) \:\) \:\)

Yeah, preferring the well-developed character who held the identity for longest, over the masked mystery man, only in comics fandom would I be the "crazy" one.

Anyways, "morbid fascination" and "like" are two different things. I also have a morbid fascination with World War 2, and with Elvis impersonators, but I wouldn't consider myself fans of them.

> Joking aside, Nightwatch is clearly Spawn-Lite,

It's weird. Visually, he so totally is, but the character behind the costume is nothing alike at all. You'd think Marvel would've been petty enough to just do a straight-up Spawn knock-off.

> but like any character, there aren't bad characters - just badly written ones -

That's not quite 100% true, you can usually spot the genuine bad character by how hard some writer is forcing them down the audience's throat.

> and Nightwatch, in the right hand, could have been interesting enough. I would have liked to have seen him in a team book as a Vision-style character.

He's definitely the kind of guy I'd have liked to see someone bring back and make something of, instead he's usually just like a half-remembered punchline to jokes about early-1990s Marvel.

> > I tracked down his entire solo series the other year, but I still have to get around to reading it all, which I need to make time to do, because the final issues have that 'Warbringer' guy who's just so 1990s it's awesome.

> Uhm... That is the first and last time 1990s and awesome will be used in the same sentence again. \:\)
> Although personally, I think the 90's are underrated and are chock full of good comics.

Since you all already think I'm crazy, I feel no shame in admitting my love for early 1990s comics. It was probably the time when the age-gap between the creators and the audience was at it's smallest, they knew what the audience wanted, and comics were actually bringing in new, teenage, readers, and that stuff was addictive like crack to us. Yes, sometimes they did stupid stuff, but the stories were moving forwards, and they had heart. Warts and all, they were making things happen, and doing stuff, more than undoing stuff.

I really think that the "bad 1990s" are the 2nd half of the decade, when superhero comics started retreating into retro-revivals and moving everything backwards, and the target-audience wasn't the young and the new readers anymore, it was 30-somethings, and nobody has ever figured out that they've got to try and turn this around somehow.

> > But remember how he randomly showed up towards the end of Maximum Carnage? And in the final chapter, he and Morbius are just sitting on a rooftop? I know I'd buy a Nightwatch & Morbius book. Especially if they just sit on rooftops and complain about their lives.

> I particularly loathe Morbius with a strong passion, so count me out.

Weirdly, I don't care about Morbius at all (and can largely thank the 1990s cartoon for that), but team him up with Nightwatch, and it has real odd-couple potential, I think.

> But I remember Nightwatch showing up - it was the first time I ever saw him, busting in to save Venom at the Statue of Liberty. I didn't know who the hel he was, so I was like 'why has this guy randomly appeared out of nowhere?'. Plus I was reading the parts out of order which doesn't help either.

Yeah, the Marvel UK series that reprinted Maximum Carnage (which took us 7 months, and I was still sad when it ended) had dropped Web of Spider-Man and Spider-Man, so they could give us classic ASM reprints, plus Spidey 2099 and "Motormouth & Killpower" instead (OK, maybe there's some early-1990s comics I don't care for...), so we'd never seen Nightwatch's debut, and here he is out of nowhere.

> > I did actually like that issue, despite it killing Nightwatch, and Polestar. The reveal of who was sponsoring Spidey in 'The Great Game' was nice, and El Toro Rojo got an impressively nasty comeuppance.

> I don't remember the issue beyond Polestar and Nightwatch dying. I remember thinking Nightwatch's death was very cheap but worth killing someone to make the game look good. But Nightwatch looked stronger than someone like ETN taking him out, frankly. So I don't remember Spidey's Sponsor. Was it JJJ?

That's right. And by the time of that issue, I hadn't seen Nightwatch since Maximum Carnage, I barely remembered the guy. It wasn't until later I learned he had his own solo book for a year.

I think there was a new Polestar since, in "New Thunderbolts", but he may have died since?

> > Well, it's certainly not ever been addressed in a comic, but it might have been done in a handbook, for the sake of wrapping up the time-loop, but nothing I've ever seen would suggest Nightwatch was capable of time-travel under his own power.

> Well, that's the interesting thing isn't it? We don't know anything about the suit, really.

Except how much it looks like Spawn.

> > I'm going with "Nightwatch's death left the time-loop incomplete, ripping a hole in the fabric of space/time, that will gradually grow to consume the planet".

> Then Galvatron will stand there, scream a fair bit, have his face blasted off, created carnage in the name of Furmanism until the hole consumes him and the Time Wars end.

> -Jeremiah Ecks,
> who can't resist to push his favourite TF of all time. \:\)

And thank you for getting what I was talking about. I think I may actually have cried when Galvatron met his fate there.


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The Green Ninjas




> > It was pretty clearly a standard 90s Kavanagh (or Mackie, who did it elsewhere) Spider-Man plot -- set up an intriguing, albeit convoluted mystery before you've worked out the solution and hope you stay on the book long enough to figure out a proper one.

> Oh, dear goodness, yes.

In fairness, it's a tactic they, and many others, learned from Claremont, who's always been best-known for that kind of long-term plotting, and it was a different comics industry back then. In those days, so long as you turned your scripts in on time, didn't make enemies in the company, and didn't sell so badly you got cancelled, you could reasonably expect to be on the book long enough to finish whatever you started.

Marvel's financial problems of the mid-1990s really put an end to that, and while it took a few years for the reality of things to sink in, nobody really writes like that much anymore, except Claremont himself, who still doesn't seem to realise that he doesn't have years in which to let things play out.

> > See also: "Who is FACADE?",

Is it supposed to be in capitals? Does it stand for anything?

And while I remember reading here how Kavanagh actually wanted to get back to Facade, but the Clone Saga just wouldn't end, what we got really reads like Facade's career is over, but he got away with it all.

> > "What's the skeleton in the smokestack?", "Who is the new evil Green Goblin?",

Wasn't that one DeMatteis? Although as part of a crossover, it was more likely part of some committee decision by the writers.

> > "Why do P and Q want that darn cat?",

Because MODOK watched one episode of Friends too many, and forced AIM to create their own, weaponised Smelly Cat.

> > and "When did Hammerhead suffer the second head trauma that convinced him to grow that awful goatee?".

When Tombstone beat him up just after Maximum Carnage. It was a very delayed reaction.

> See also: No thanks. The 'Evil Goblin' one being one that was uber-disappointing, and very cheap. I think the whole 'mystery' Goblin was then pretty much dead on its feet so that Menace's debut lacked a bit of punch, despite it being a fairly decent mystery.

The 5th Green Goblin, and Mad Jack both had a decent set-up at the time, but then the reboot happened, and they both got underwhelming, and in the former case, absolutely stupid and insulting, resolutions. The Spidey books need to let go of their love of mystery villains, for all our sakes.

> > Plus it actually made the motivation behind the Game itself sensible and clever. Which is why Nicieza reviving it in Thunderbolts just to bring back Joystick never really worked for me.

> To be fair, any reason to bring Joystick into a book is good enough reason for me. I love Joystick. Where is she now?

I...have no idea. Everything Thunderbolts that's pre-Norman and Gargan has kind of sunk into a big bland blur to me.

> > > Isn't that also the issue where Robbie sees Peter and Spidey-Ben together and was all shocked, like he thought he had it all figured out?

> > Yep!

> So by the time Civil Bore hits,

OK, OK, I'll be the one of us who likes Civil War. Someone has to be That Guy.

> Robbie is again convinced that Spidey isn't Peter and vice versa. I always felt uncomfortable with Robbie denying he knew - clearly, he did. Why did he get Ken Ellis to quash the Parker story when Ken Ellis figured it out?

How long ago was that one?

Anyways, I was fine with the notion of Robbie and Ben Urich figuring it out just by being good at their jobs, and keeping Peter's secret for the greater good, but the Spidey-Ben era probably would've convinced them otherwise.

> > There's also the way that, at that time, Marvel's usual stance was that time-travel involved alternate timelines. So the Nightwatch who made it back to 616 might simply have been from a different timeline where he survived the Great Game and died in some other fashion.

But that rule only came into effect when they wanted it to. The Time Travel Rules really worked against there being any drama or stakes in a story, so they got suspended or ignored whenever necessary.

> Yeah, like I said in the OP, that makes sense somewhat but then you have another problem - how did that Nightwatch get his powers? It's never really explained, but if the Wiki article comes from a reliable source, I can buy it - it then creates a newer problem of 'where does the suit originally come from'? It can't circle in a time loop forever - it's against the rules of entropy for a start.

Maybe defying the rules of entropy is part of the suit's power-set?

> > That's the thing -- how in Zod's name did Kavanagh plan to make that work...ever?

> Come on. Kavanagh. How did he think anything was ever going to work?

The "how" of him time-travelling back was never going to be a problem in and of itself, with Reed Richards, Doctor Doom, and several others have time machines just waiting to be borrowed by some guy that looks like Spawn but totally isn't.

In contrast, a retroactive explanation of a dying Nightwatch spontaneously developing time-travel powers, is just straight out of nowhere.

And I really can see the never-ending time-loop as being intended.

> > That's it! FACADE beat Nightwatch to death with Rosebud, the time sled from Walt Simonson's FF run! And also FACADE was a mirror-universe version of the Looter, who doesn't have a goatee and pathologically hates anything resembling a meteorite. He hated Nightwatch for handling meteorites during his epic battle with...FLASHPOINT!!!

> Hmm, I think I have a copy of the above issue you're mentioning somewhere, with my cheat codes to bring Aeris back from the dead...

I...don't even remember Flashpoint. I really need to read that Nightwatch series, I guess.

> > Luckily, Carnage throws a baby into it just to see what will happen, and that somehow fixes things.

OK, you win this thread.

> > And that baby grows up to be....Terry Kavanagh. Who grows up even more and becomes Cardiaxe II, the even grittier evil version of Cardiac.

In seriousness, for all the comics writers and artists who've been written into their own comics (or other people's), have any of them ever been turned into a supervillain?

> That is... upsetting. As it stands I can't get my hands on Nightwatch, where Cardiaxe shows up - is it worth tracking down, seeing as I am a BIG Cardiac fan?

Once I get up to date on my new comics (which may take months, as it stands right now), I'll read the Nightwatch series, and say something about it here. Maybe I'll even go back to his debut in Web.


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Jeremiah Ecks





Sorry for the slow reply, dude, but I've had some really awkward IRL troubles. Nontheless, I did want to reply to your posts. \:\)


    Quote:
    Yeah, preferring the well-developed character who held the identity for longest, over the masked mystery man, only in comics fandom would I be the "crazy" one.


Well, I'd say Kingsley is well-developed. \:\) Well-dead now, I think. \^_\^


    Quote:
    It's weird. Visually, he so totally is, but the character behind the costume is nothing alike at all. You'd think Marvel would've been petty enough to just do a straight-up Spawn knock-off.


Well... you have to appreciate the effort. They could either cash in a cheap knock off or do a spin-off with bad finesse. But I sort of like the idea of Nightwatch. Somehow.


    Quote:
    That's not quite 100% true, you can usually spot the genuine bad character by how hard some writer is forcing them down the audience's throat.


Like Mackie pushed Macendale and kept rebooting his powers? \:\)
Sorry, couldn't resist, Ninja-Dude. \^_\^


    Quote:
    He's definitely the kind of guy I'd have liked to see someone bring back and make something of, instead he's usually just like a half-remembered punchline to jokes about early-1990s Marvel.


Yeah, I totally agree. Nightwatch could be pretty good. So could other characters like Toxin, Supulchre, Deathlok. I think there's a lot of potential to be mined. But Nightwatch does strike me as someone who was criminally underrused.


    Quote:
    Since you all already think I'm crazy, I feel no shame in admitting my love for early 1990s comics. .


Yes, dude, you are crazy - but you're not crazy for loving 90's comics. We can be alone in the corner of shame together. \:\) Now give me a bit of 90's Michelinie / Conway Spidey, I always say.


    Quote:
    Yes, sometimes they did stupid stuff, but the stories were moving forwards, and they had heart. Warts and all, they were making things happen, and doing stuff, more than undoing stuff.


That last sentence is my biggest beef with comics as a whole. Resurrections, reboots. Don't like 'em. It all started with X-Men, in bringing Jean back - jumping the shark. But, hey, they did good things with it and the book continued to move forward. So yay for Jean coming back... but it spelled trouble. Then, what happens? I noticed back when Psi-War happened in X-Men, then they set the team back to the 'All New, All Different' X-Men, and stripping it back to Storm, Logan, Colossus et al. There was a deliberate motion to reboot 'back to the glory days'. Spidey then followed suit, and other books soon did too. I realised then that Marvel had become nostalgic and no longer did the serialised element of the books take precedence. Finally, Marvel became - and still is - self-indulgent.


    Quote:
    I really think that the "bad 1990s" are the 2nd half of the decade, when superhero comics started retreating into retro-revivals and moving everything backwards, and the target-audience wasn't the young and the new readers anymore, it was 30-somethings, and nobody has ever figured out that they've got to try and turn this around somehow.


Agreed, 100% dude. Completely and utterly. Problem is, I think Marvel is still 'there' in some ways. Their stories are more grittier, violent, 'adult', but yet still stuck in some kind of retro-bubble.


    Quote:
    Weirdly, I don't care about Morbius at all (and can largely thank the 1990s cartoon for that), but team him up with Nightwatch, and it has real odd-couple potential, I think.


I can't share that with you. Morbius was a loss inthe cartoon (I suck plasma through my hands, indeed!), but I've never liked him in the comics either. He's hokey in a bad sense of the word (someone like Green Goblin is also hokey, but works, for example). He's just boring to me.


    Quote:
    Yeah, the Marvel UK series that reprinted Maximum Carnage (which took us 7 months, and I was still sad when it ended) had dropped Web of Spider-Man and Spider-Man, so they could give us classic ASM reprints, plus Spidey 2099 and "Motormouth & Killpower" instead (OK, maybe there's some early-1990s comics I don't care for...), so we'd never seen Nightwatch's debut, and here he is out of nowhere.


Exploits of Spider-Man FTW!!!! Weren't those the days? Do you remember Complete Spider-Man too? I did like Exploits. Great format, shame it ended. Oh, and I'm sorry, but I really, really, really love Motormouth & Killpower and would happily buy a trade for them if they do one. \:\) *^$%^(
And this explains your love for Furmanisms too. \:\)


    Quote:
    I think there was a new Polestar since, in "New Thunderbolts", but he may have died since?


He showed up to fight Kaine in the appropriately titled Return of Kaine. And I think he's dead too. Could be wrong.


    Quote:
    And thank you for getting what I was talking about. I think I may actually have cried when Galvatron met his fate there.


Well, all I can say is *bwaaaahhhhhhhhh*.
Nah, I'm always game to spot a Galvatron reference. I'm one of the few who absolutely love the guy. But I like all sorts of weird TF's, so sue me.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wonders what would happen when Galvie met Normie. BWAAAARGH!@





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Jeremiah Ecks






    Quote:
    Marvel's financial problems of the mid-1990s really put an end to that, and while it took a few years for the reality of things to sink in, nobody really writes like that much anymore, except Claremont himself, who still doesn't seem to realise that he doesn't have years in which to let things play out.


Now, you know, I do like Claremont still. But his run on Exiles killed the book standing and for the life of me, I don't know why as some of the characters (Cat, Rogue, Psylocke) I really liked. So I have a beef with the guy. I'd like to see him do a proper Spidey run, some day.


    Quote:
    Is it supposed to be in capitals? Does it stand for anything?


Fully Automatic Cr*p Active Dumb Ergonomics? Goodness knows. But it is meant to be capitals, and it does stand for something. Fully something or other.


    Quote:
    And while I remember reading here how Kavanagh actually wanted to get back to Facade, but the Clone Saga just wouldn't end, what we got really reads like Facade's career is over, but he got away with it all.


They did have a humorous post on the Marvel website recently. It was ingenious. Revealing FACADE's identity but cutting the last words of the page off. But, of course, nobody wants FACADE to come back now. The heat has totally died. Shame, as Lance Bannon died to make a one-shot character look good.


    Quote:
    The 5th Green Goblin, and Mad Jack both had a decent set-up at the time, but then the reboot happened, and they both got underwhelming, and in the former case, absolutely stupid and insulting, resolutions. The Spidey books need to let go of their love of mystery villains, for all our sakes.


Well, in a twist of irony, I think Greenberg wanted Goblin to be Phil Urich. Funny how old ideas come back to bite Marvel writers (see: Mephisto - Clone Saga Resolutionist, v. OMD).
I don't mind mystery villains, but Menace - despite being a good mystery - was met with apathy. So I think the 'mystery villain' thing could use a rest.


    Quote:
    I...have no idea. Everything Thunderbolts that's pre-Norman and Gargan has kind of sunk into a big bland blur to me.


Now, hey. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, Mr. Reptile-of-Doom, but Pre-Gargan-T-Bolts weren't bland. \:\)
Especially with Mrs. Stick of Joy there. \^_\^
Saying that... any non-Bagley T-Bolts wasn't ever quite as good. I miss Bagley.
But yeah, in seriousness, sorry you didn't like it.


    Quote:
    OK, OK, I'll be the one of us who likes Civil War. Someone has to be That Guy.


You're the majority! Most people liked Civil Snore. For me, it was where Marvel and I parted wallet ways and I haven't found my way back yet. Not quite.
Anyway, there are parts of Civil Snore I really liked. Ask me about it sometime. \:\)


    Quote:
    How long ago was that one?


In The Clone Saga. Peter and MJ move to Oregon and whilst there, Spidey has to fight Tendril. Ken Ellis finally puts two-and-two together, writes an expose on Spidey, gives his hand away by showing MJ and MJ asks Robbie to quash the story. Robbie doesn't know what the story is (he can probably guess) and essentially manipulates Ellis into dropping it. But Ellis does know, he just hasn't got a forum to make money off it, so keeps it to himself.


    Quote:
    Maybe defying the rules of entropy is part of the suit's power-set?


So it is in it's own self-contained time loop. The suit never is created and it never dies. I can go with that.


    Quote:
    In contrast, a retroactive explanation of a dying Nightwatch spontaneously developing time-travel powers, is just straight out of nowhere.


True. But I could buy it if done properly.


    Quote:
    OK, you win this thread.


Of course. I win everything I do. \:\) Mwa-hah-hah!


    Quote:
    In seriousness, for all the comics writers and artists who've been written into their own comics (or other people's), have any of them ever been turned into a supervillain?


Anybody know? Answers on a Post-Card.


    Quote:
    Once I get up to date on my new comics (which may take months, as it stands right now), I'll read the Nightwatch series, and say something about it here. Maybe I'll even go back to his debut in Web.


Let me know. In my chronological reads, I'm just about to embark on the McFarlane era, so Nightwatch isn't too far, relatively. I look forward to Cardiac. Now can someone help me here - did Cardiac ever have his own book? And if not, why?

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wants a Cardiac book.





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The Green Ninjas




I'm still at work on a response to this thread, so am just posting something to stop a time-out. We must not let the Nightwatch thread die.


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Jeremiah Ecks





It's dead, Jim. Just like Nightwatch. \:\)

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who wants you to wax-lyrical about the UK glory days of Exploits of Spider-Man, Doctor Who Magazine and Transformers UK, darn it. But the older I get the more I find nostalgia is a seductive, yet extremely deceptive, temptress.



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Omar Karindu


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,242



    Quote:


      Quote:
      Marvel's financial problems of the mid-1990s really put an end to that, and while it took a few years for the reality of things to sink in, nobody really writes like that much anymore, except Claremont himself, who still doesn't seem to realise that he doesn't have years in which to let things play out.



    Quote:
    Now, you know, I do like Claremont still. But his run on Exiles killed the book standing and for the life of me, I don't know why as some of the characters (Cat, Rogue, Psylocke) I really liked. So I have a beef with the guy. I'd like to see him do a proper Spidey run, some day.


I don't think Claremont has ever been interested enough in writing "everday life" to write a good Spider-Man solo book. He does tend to implant mystical, exotic, or sci-fi conspiracies and genealogies into the background of the characters he writes.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Is it supposed to be in capitals? Does it stand for anything?



    Quote:
    Fully Automatic Cr*p Active Dumb Ergonomics? Goodness knows. But it is meant to be capitals, and it does stand for something. Fully something or other.


"Full Acclimation Combat And Defense Exoskeleton" I don't think Terry Kavanagh knew what "Acclimation" meant at the time.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      And while I remember reading here how Kavanagh actually wanted to get back to Facade, but the Clone Saga just wouldn't end, what we got really reads like Facade's career is over, but he got away with it all.



    Quote:
    They did have a humorous post on the Marvel website recently. It was ingenious. Revealing FACADE's identity but cutting the last words of the page off. But, of course, nobody wants FACADE to come back now. The heat has totally died. Shame, as Lance Bannon died to make a one-shot character look good.


That was actually first done in the Dark Reign Files Handbook one-shot; the premise is that it's a report to Norman Osborn compiled by the evil AI Quasimodo.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      The 5th Green Goblin, and Mad Jack both had a decent set-up at the time, but then the reboot happened, and they both got underwhelming, and in the former case, absolutely stupid and insulting, resolutions. The Spidey books need to let go of their love of mystery villains, for all our sakes.



    Quote:
    Well, in a twist of irony, I think Greenberg wanted Goblin to be Phil Urich. Funny how old ideas come back to bite Marvel writers (see: Mephisto - Clone Saga Resolutionist, v. OMD).


My understanding is that this was the original pitch for the new Goblin, but a later editorial edict nixed it before the reveal could be made.


    Quote:
    I don't mind mystery villains, but Menace - despite being a good mystery - was met with apathy. So I think the 'mystery villain' thing could use a rest.


Menace wasn't that good a mystery, honestly. But really, her big disadvantage was being yet another Goblin when we've had so many variations and spinoffs of the original that another one was going to have little impact.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      I...have no idea. Everything Thunderbolts that's pre-Norman and Gargan has kind of sunk into a big bland blur to me.



    Quote:
    Now, hey. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, Mr. Reptile-of-Doom, but Pre-Gargan-T-Bolts weren't bland. \:\)
    Especially with Mrs. Stick of Joy there. \^_\^
    Saying that... any non-Bagley T-Bolts wasn't ever quite as good. I miss Bagley.
    But yeah, in seriousness, sorry you didn't like it.


I liked the first 25 issues of T-Bolts, Fabian Nicieza's conspiracy plotline from #34 to #50, and then Ellisbolts, but nothing else on the title ever really worked that well for me.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      OK, OK, I'll be the one of us who likes Civil War. Someone has to be That Guy.



    Quote:
    You're the majority! Most people liked Civil Snore. For me, it was where Marvel and I parted wallet ways and I haven't found my way back yet. Not quite.
    Anyway, there are parts of Civil Snore I really liked. Ask me about it sometime. \:\)


People liked CW, but a lot fewer people liked the long-lasting aftermath of the post-CW status quo that much. There's a reason Mighty Avengers never sold anywhere nearly as well as the New Avengers. (That reason is Wolverine and Spider-Man, but still...)


    Quote:

      Quote:
      How long ago was that one?



    Quote:
    In The Clone Saga. Peter and MJ move to Oregon and whilst there, Spidey has to fight Tendril. Ken Ellis finally puts two-and-two together, writes an expose on Spidey, gives his hand away by showing MJ and MJ asks Robbie to quash the story. Robbie doesn't know what the story is (he can probably guess) and essentially manipulates Ellis into dropping it. But Ellis does know, he just hasn't got a forum to make money off it, so keeps it to himself.


Huh. What an odd way to drop that plotline. Moot now, I guess, thanks to the blindspot.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Maybe defying the rules of entropy is part of the suit's power-set?



    Quote:
    So it is in it's own self-contained time loop. The suit never is created and it never dies. I can go with that.


And eventually it accumulates enough entropy that it becomes sentient and evolves into Alioth, scourge of the timestream?


    Quote:

      Quote:
      In contrast, a retroactive explanation of a dying Nightwatch spontaneously developing time-travel powers, is just straight out of nowhere.



    Quote:
    True. But I could buy it if done properly.


I still prefer my solution with mirror-universe beardless meteorite-hating Looter.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      OK, you win this thread.



    Quote:
    Of course. I win everything I do. \:\) Mwa-hah-hah!


Bah! I won this thread, not you! It's as if your'e being voiced by the late, great Chris Latta! Though then you really *would* win this thread....


    Quote:

      Quote:
      In seriousness, for all the comics writers and artists who've been written into their own comics (or other people's), have any of them ever been turned into a supervillain?



    Quote:
    Anybody know? Answers on a Post-Card.


When Cary Bates wrote himself into a JLA/JSA crossover in the mid-1970s Justice League of America #123-124, he became a super-villain by using his writing-based power to warp reality, joining the Injustice Society fot he Wrld and actually killing the Justice Society on Earth-2. However, his co-writer Eliott S! Maggin managed to team up with the JLA on Earth-1 to stop Bates and defeat the Injustic Society, and the Spectre convinced God Himself to resurrect the HSA.

Interestingly, Bates used a previous story he'd written in Flash #179 to justify the arc. In that story, the Flash wound up on Earth-Prime (then meant to be our reality), where the speedster met Julius Schwartz and the two built a duplicate of the Flash's" cosmic treadmill" device -- kind of a jogging-powered TARDIS -- to send the Flash home. In the JLA story, Bates and Maggin were tossed through the dimensions when they accidentally triggered the Earth-prime treadmill in their editor's office.

You probably know Earth-Prime now as the home of the whiny, murderous Superboy-Prime, who was introduced in a Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover issue of DC Comics Presents, which story essentially destroyed the idea of Earth-Prime being the "real world" of the readers. And then the Crisis promptly destroyed Earth-Prime anyway.


    Quote:

      Quote:
      Once I get up to date on my new comics (which may take months, as it stands right now), I'll read the Nightwatch series, and say something about it here. Maybe I'll even go back to his debut in Web.



    Quote:
    Let me know. In my chronological reads, I'm just about to embark on the McFarlane era, so Nightwatch isn't too far, relatively. I look forward to Cardiac. Now can someone help me here - did Cardiac ever have his own book? And if not, why?


Cardiac seems to be the one vigilante guy who didn't get a four-issue miniseries in the 1990s, and I really can't tell you why. He was featured in a 1990s Black Cat miniseries, though.


    Quote:
    -Jeremiah Ecks,
    who wants a Cardiac book.



    Quote:








- Omar Karindu
"For your information, I don't have an ego. My Facebook photo is a landscape."
Posted with Apple Safari 4.1.3 on MacOS X
Jeremiah Ecks






    Quote:
    That was actually first done in the Dark Reign Files Handbook one-shot; the premise is that it's a report to Norman Osborn compiled by the evil AI Quasimodo.


That's the one. And we still don't know! \:\)


    Quote:
    Menace wasn't that good a mystery, honestly. But really, her big disadvantage was being yet another Goblin when we've had so many variations and spinoffs of the original that another one was going to have little impact.


I did like Menace but I sat a lot of it out due to my ASM boycott.


    Quote:
    Huh. What an odd way to drop that plotline. Moot now, I guess, thanks to the blindspot.


Yeah. The way the issue played out is every time Ellis tried to pitch the identity reveal to another journalistic avenue, they ignored him thanks to their respect for Robbie. It was a cheap way out but really made Robbie look cool. \:\)


    Quote:
    I still prefer my solution with mirror-universe beardless meteorite-hating Looter.


What solution is that, OmKa?


    Quote:
    Bah! I won this thread, not you! It's as if your'e being voiced by the late, great Chris Latta! Though then you really *would* win this thread....


Nah mate, I'm being voiced by everybody's favourite Vulcan. And if you don't know who I mean... Here's a Hint!
Ohh, that moment is soooooo cathartic. \:\)


    Quote:
    When Cary Bates wrote himself into a JLA/JSA crossover in the mid-1970s Justice League of America #123-124, he became a super-villain by using his writing-based power to warp reality, joining the Injustice Society fot he Wrld and actually killing the Justice Society on Earth-2. However, his co-writer Eliott S! Maggin managed to team up with the JLA on Earth-1 to stop Bates and defeat the Injustic Society, and the Spectre convinced God Himself to resurrect the HSA. Interestingly, Bates used a previous story he'd written in Flash #179 to justify the arc. In that story, the Flash wound up on Earth-Prime (then meant to be our reality), where the speedster met Julius Schwartz and the two built a duplicate of the Flash's" cosmic treadmill" device -- kind of a jogging-powered TARDIS -- to send the Flash home. In the JLA story, Bates and Maggin were tossed through the dimensions when they accidentally triggered the Earth-prime treadmill in their editor's office.You probably know Earth-Prime now as the home of the whiny, murderous Superboy-Prime, who was introduced in a Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover issue of DC Comics Presents, which story essentially destroyed the idea of Earth-Prime being the "real world" of the readers. And then the Crisis promptly destroyed Earth-Prime anyway.


Because your explanation made my head hurt, I'm going to explain this is why I don't read DC that often. \:\) I'm a comic book geek, certified, and I don't have the holiest heck of an idea what you just said. o_O


    Quote:
    Cardiac seems to be the one vigilante guy who didn't get a four-issue miniseries in the 1990s, and I really can't tell you why. He was featured in a 1990s Black Cat miniseries, though.


Yeah. Annex got a book. Solo got a book. Nightwatch got a book (way to bring back onto topic, team!). But Cardiac, who is better than all three, got zilch? He got a guest-starring role in Nightwatch, and Black Cat? And isn't that the awful Black Cat series IIRC?

Barf.

-Jeremiah Ecks,
who after talking about DC, Transformers, Cardiac and Nightwatch in one-post is going to punch a hole through reality and dubbing Ultimate Warriors' ravings over Galvatron from the TF Animated Series. Oh, oh, ho ho.



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