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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) Posted Wed Dec 15, 2021 at 01:34:10 pm CST (Viewed 250 times) |
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I like this movie as much as Spider-Man 2.
In my opinion, the film is very respectful not only of the continuity of the 7 previous movies but also their spirit.
In the movie, Doc Ock, the Goblin, Electro carry more weight than the Lizard & Sandman.
There are a lot of fan-pleasing moments (in-jokes, Easter eggs, meta-references...).
My speculation in the previous message below proved to be false. There is no 6th villain. However, most of the other theories on internet proved to be right!
The movie is darker & grimmer than the 2 previous ones and closer to the tone of the other 5 movies. Yes, the time has come for tragedy.
Venom only appeared in a mid-credits scene.
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Sandman

Member Since: Fri Oct 03, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Wed Dec 15, 2021 at 06:49:42 pm CST (Viewed 223 times) |
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: [SPOILERS] [Re: Sandman] Posted Thu Dec 16, 2021 at 06:54:09 am CST (Viewed 197 times) |
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Quote:
I think I heard rumors that they're thinking of having Hobgoblin in the next film.
To answer you, the problem is that I have to reveal some key elements of the story, actually most of the plot! (^_^')
It would be a shame if somebody reads my answer without watching the film first...
So, I strongly advise against reading my answer below before watching the movie.
Really!
You will ruin your own enjoyment!
Seriously!
I don't think that a new Goblin will be the next villain. It is possible but I don't believe it.
First, the Green Goblin killed May. It is impossible to overmatch this.
Then, the 3 Spider-Men cured Norman Osborn of his mental illness thanks to a serum that Spider-Man 3.0 & Norman Osborn had elaborated.
Also, Ned Leeds learned from Spider-Men 1.0 & 2.0 that their best friend, Harry Osborn, had tried to kill them. So, Ned promised Spider-Man 3.0 that he would never do the same.
During the movie, Norman Osborn was totally lost in the MCU because there is no Oscorp in this world contrary to the other 2 realities.
At the end of the movie, Doctor Strange corrected what happened to the MCU and Spider-Men 1.0 & 2.0 and their respective villains were sent back to their own realities.
Most people in the MCU may have fragmented memories of the events because their remembrance of Peter Parker was erased in the process.
The most significant villain that one of the Spider-Men has yet to meet is Kraven the Hunter. My bet is still on him.
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Groucho

Member Since: Fri Dec 17, 2021
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 08:31:17 am CST (Viewed 149 times) |
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Spoiler Space
So did Andrew Garfield Spider-Man and Toby Maguire Spider-Man forget who Peter Parker was also? That's how everyone got sent home right. I guess they went home with a sever case of amnesia.
And what was up with the Statue of Liberty? When we first saw it, it was holding up a shield and was covered in scaffolding. Then at the end it looked like our normal statue. I know a lot of scaffolding and the shield got ruined in the fight but it didn't look damaged and it was holding up the torch. Was it an alternate universe statue that knew Spider-Man's secret identity?
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Quoyle

Member Since: Sat Oct 08, 2016
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Groucho] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 09:48:47 am CST (Viewed 155 times) |
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It couldn’t happen to the other Peter’s. They are as much Peter Parker as MCU Peter. They would remember. It’s an interesting point that now the villains wouldn’t know Peter either.
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Revolutionary_Jack

Member Since: Fri Nov 26, 2021
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Quoyle] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 11:06:49 am CST (Viewed 167 times) |
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https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com/
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The Black Guardian
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Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 11:17:36 am CST (Viewed 184 times) |
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Extremely fun and sad movie, even if the entire premise and outcome is beyond dumb.
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: The Black Guardian] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 01:50:07 pm CST (Viewed 196 times) |
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Quote:
Extremely fun and sad movie, even if the entire premise and outcome is beyond dumb.
Oh yes, no contest there.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt
And then... Ned Leeds, Master of the Mystic Arts (^_^')
Also, only the Green Goblin & Doctor Octopus actually met all the criteria of the plot:
-Neither Electro nor Venom 2.0 knew that Peter Parker is Spider-Man (contrary to Harry Osborn 1.0, Venom 1.0 & Harry Osborn 2.0).
-Neither Sandman nor the Lizard died while fighting Spider-Man (contrary to Venom 1.0 & Harry Osborn 1.0).
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Groucho] Posted Fri Dec 17, 2021 at 02:12:06 pm CST (Viewed 136 times) |
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Quote:
And what was up with the Statue of Liberty? When we first saw it, it was holding up a shield and was covered in scaffolding. Then at the end it looked like our normal statue. I know a lot of scaffolding and the shield got ruined in the fight but it didn't look damaged and it was holding up the torch. Was it an alternate universe statue that knew Spider-Man's secret identity?
The way I understand it, after 'Endgame' and 'The Falcon & the Winter Soldier', New York City honored Captain America.
It is also mentioned in 'Hawkeye'.
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Groucho

Member Since: Fri Dec 17, 2021
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Sun Dec 19, 2021 at 03:51:47 pm CST (Viewed 111 times) |
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My issue is not that the statue is different from ours. My issue is that it changed during the movie. Did it know Spider-man's secret identity and then forget it due to the spell?
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] [Re: Groucho] Posted Sun Dec 19, 2021 at 06:27:09 pm CST (Viewed 121 times) |
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I am sorry but I only remember that, at the time of the battle, the laying of the shield on the statue was nearing completion but the work had not been completed yet.
During the fight, the shield dropped and was broken.
The torch was still in place on the statue. So, it had not been modified yet.
Maybe, you saw something else that I didn't notice?
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JesusFan

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Mon Dec 20, 2021 at 12:26:18 pm CST (Viewed 141 times) |
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Since the other 2 Spidermen had no concept of there being Avengers, does that mean they had no other superheros, just super villains on their earths?
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JesusFan

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Mon Dec 20, 2021 at 12:31:10 pm CST (Viewed 123 times) |
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just saw it last night, so both Spiderman did survive, even though Goblin gutted one of them?
and was DD same one as was in Netflix series?
and how could dr strange affect minds of all sentience beings in entire Multiverse, as he should not be able to do even with his full magic!
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The Shuruku Demon

Member Since: Sun Jan 04, 2009
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Tue Dec 21, 2021 at 12:54:08 pm CST (Viewed 131 times) |
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Quote: And then... Ned Leeds, Master of the Mystic Arts (^_^')
Also, only the Green Goblin & Doctor Octopus actually met all the criteria of the plot:
-Neither Electro nor Venom 2.0 knew that Peter Parker is Spider-Man (contrary to Harry Osborn 1.0, Venom 1.0 & Harry Osborn 2.0).
-Neither Sandman nor the Lizard died while fighting Spider-Man (contrary to Venom 1.0 & Harry Osborn 1.0).
In regard to the second of your two bullet points, I don't recall Strange saying that a person had to've died in battle with Spider-Man in order to be transported by the spell.
In regard to your first bullet point, it's not explicit, but there are implied explanations for both of those (though in the case of Venom 2.0, it involves spoilers for Venom: Let There Be Carnage).
Eddie's initial transportation to the MCU seemingly occurred in a mid-credits scene in Venom: Let There Be Carnage.
In that scene, we see Eddie lying on a bed watching TV, when the symbiote mentions that it has "80 billion light-years of hive knowledge across universes" which it's never shared with Eddie up 'til now.
The symbiote decides to share "a taste" of this knowledge with Eddie, and as it does so, there's a distortion effect around the room, and Eddie suddenly finds himself lying on a bed in a different room, where the MCU version of Triple J is on TV, reporting on the reveal of Spider-Man's secret identity.
The fact that Eddie was transported right after the symbiote shared some of its "hive knowledge" with him suggests that him receiving this knowledge was a catalyst in that event. (Either that, or it was an almighty coincidence.)
My guess is that a symbiote in another universe -- perhaps the universe the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy is set in? -- must have known of Spider-Man and his secret identity, and Eddie's symbiote was able to share this knowledge with him via some type of interdimensional hive mind which the symbiotes apparently possess. This in turn made the both of them unwittingly subject to Dr. Strange's spell.
In the case of Electro, he mentioned that the last thing he recalled before he was transported to the MCU was "being stuck in the grid, absorbing data".
It does seem like a stretch that the "data" he absorbed would tell him Spider-Man's real name, without him also learning of Spidey's ethnicity (he later seemed surprised to see that Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man was a white guy under the mask). But the phrasing they used there certainly allows for that interpretation.

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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: The Shuruku Demon] Posted Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 04:11:37 am CST (Viewed 136 times) |
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Quote:
In regard to the second of your two bullet points, I don't recall Strange saying that a person had to've died in battle with Spider-Man in order to be transported by the spell.
The eventual death of the villains is a key element of the plot. Spider-Man 3.0 and the five villains assumed that the villains were transported to the MCU just before they died while fighting Spider-Man in their respective realities. Doctor Strange neither confirmed nor denied it. His only goal was to stop the chaos that the misfired spell had caused. Actually, if Sandman & the Lizard had guessed the truth, they would have sided with Doctor Strange against the other villains.
It is not a plot hole but, in my view, in term of coherence, it is far from being one of the highlights of the story.
Quote:
In regard to your first bullet point, it's not explicit, but there are implied explanations for both of those (though in the case of Venom 2.0, it involves spoilers for Venom: Let There Be Carnage).
Many thanks for your thoughtful analysis.
My reaction is the same in this case: These implied explanations are far-fetched and far from being highlights of the story.
The truth is that things happened because they served the purpose: Sony & Marvel Studios wanted to make a crossover film with the 5 main villains of the previous film series and the Spider-Man of the MCU.
Since I enjoyed the movie, it's ok in my book.
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Jeff m.

Member Since: Mon Jan 13, 2020
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 11:29:54 am CST (Viewed 112 times) |
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The interpretations I've seen (bot being a stretch, but acceptable since the film was enjoyable)
The Lizard persona died when Spidey 2.0 cured him in his movie, he was transported right before that.
Sandman was in his sand form and kinda patchy throughout, the theory I've seen is he was transported from some later date before he lost all coherence and collapsed into a pile of sand.
Loved the film, so they work for me.
Other option, they are from slightly different universes from the movies we saw where they did die.
Jeff
www.dogfoodforchairs.com
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zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: JesusFan] Posted Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 10:33:07 pm CST (Viewed 96 times) |
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Yes, both Spider-Men survived. Yes, that was the same actor playing Matt Murdock as in the Netflix series. Dr. Strange's spell did not affect the entire multiverse, only the universe he was in.
How to make an entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49xWJJvpjzI
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zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: JesusFan] Posted Wed Dec 22, 2021 at 10:35:55 pm CST (Viewed 117 times) |
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Quote: Since the other 2 Spidermen had no concept of there being Avengers, does that mean they had no other superheros, just super villains on their earths?
This is not a logical assumption. There may or may not have been other superheroes. All we know is that there was not an Avengers team.
How to make an entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49xWJJvpjzI
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The Shuruku Demon

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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Thu Dec 23, 2021 at 07:38:53 am CST (Viewed 21 times) |
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Quote: The eventual death of the villains is a key element of the plot.
I agree it was a key element of the plot, in terms of character motivations. There was no mention of it being key to the spell though. The only criterion Strange specified for people being pulled in from other realities was them knowing that Peter Parker is Spider-Man: "That little spell that you botched where you wanted everyone to forget that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, it started pulling in everyone who knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man, from every universe."
Out of the eight characters transported to the MCU from other realities, only three of them actually died in the previous movies they were in.
Quote: Spider-Man 3.0 and the five villains assumed that the villains were transported to the MCU just before they died while fighting Spider-Man in their respective realities.
Not quite. Dr. Octopus mentioned that Osborn died, and then Sandman stated that both Ock and Osborn died fighting Spider-Man. Electro also figured out that he was about to die just before he was transported to the MCU. The Lizard didn't know if he died or not.
I don't see any part in the transcript for the movie where Peter indicates that he thinks that all the villains were going to die. He specifically tells Strange that: "Some of these guys are gonna die."
Also, the Sandman was technically wrong when he said Ock died fighting Spider-Man. That may've been what was reported on the news, but he didn't witness Ock's death first-hand. We did, and what we saw wasn't Ock dying while fighting Spider-Man, but rather, Ock coming to his senses, and sacrificing himself to save NYC from his out-of-control fusion reactor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgFOKzsLQuo
Quote: Doctor Strange neither confirmed nor denied it. His only goal was to stop the chaos that the misfired spell had caused.
Strange didn't obviously know or seem especially concerned about the fate of the villains, or the history of those other realities in general. He specifically said "If they die, they die", which alludes to a mixture of ignorance and indifference on his part (similar to Ivan Drago saying "If he dies, he dies" about Apollo Creed in Rocky 4).
Quote: Actually, if Sandman & the Lizard had guessed the truth, they would have sided with Doctor Strange against the other villains.
Possibly, but that has nothing to do with the nature of Strange's spell. Just as Strange apparently knew little or nothing about their universes, they knew little or nothing about him and his magic.
Quote: Many thanks for your thoughtful analysis.
My reaction is the same in this case: These implied explanations are far-fetched and far from being highlights of the story.
The truth is that things happened because they served the purpose: Sony & Marvel Studios wanted to make a crossover film with the 5 main villains of the previous film series and the Spider-Man of the MCU.
Since I enjoyed the movie, it's ok in my book.
I agree that both explanations are somewhat of a stretch, especially the one for Electro, but I can appreciate that they seemingly tried to at least hint at an explanation of some sort, rather than just completely ignoring their own story logic and hoping no one would notice. Perhaps they'll clarify things a bit more explicitly at some point down the line.
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: The Shuruku Demon] Posted Thu Dec 23, 2021 at 12:23:07 pm CST (Viewed 102 times) |
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Quote:
I agree it was a key element of the plot, in terms of character motivations. There was no mention of it being key to the spell though.
Yes, in my first message, I was only saying that, in my view, only Doctor Octopus & the Green Goblin met all the criteria of the plot.
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Grey Gargoyle

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: [No Prize] [Re: Jeff m.] Posted Thu Dec 23, 2021 at 12:50:41 pm CST (Viewed 103 times) |
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Quote:
The interpretations I've seen (bot being a stretch, but acceptable since the film was enjoyable)
The Lizard persona died when Spidey 2.0 cured him in his movie, he was transported right before that.
Sandman was in his sand form and kinda patchy throughout, the theory I've seen is he was transported from some later date before he lost all coherence and collapsed into a pile of sand.
Loved the film, so they work for me.
Indeed, that could work. (^_^)
I have my own interpretation of what the misfired spell did (apparently, runic magic?): it tried to rewrite the narrative of the hoax that Mysterio had invented and, paradoxically, the new story became a chaotic reality.
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zvelf

Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Thu Dec 23, 2021 at 03:54:08 pm CST (Viewed 100 times) |
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Quote: Actually, if Sandman & the Lizard had guessed the truth, they would have sided with Doctor Strange against the other villains.
At first I thought this was the case too, but thinking it through, if Sandman and Lizard just wanted to get back to their universes and didn't care whether the other villains survived, attacking Spider-Man could get them their goal. They could figure that at some point, Spider-Man would just not find the endeavor of being attacked by those he's trying to save as worthwhile and just push the damned button. Only if they want to save Ock and Osborne and Electro would they side with Spidey and Strange.
How to make an entrance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49xWJJvpjzI
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Superman's Pal
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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 5,730
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: zvelf] Posted Sat Dec 25, 2021 at 12:43:49 am CST (Viewed 81 times) |
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Quote: Dr. Strange's spell did not affect the entire multiverse, only the universe he was in.
But the whole problem was that people from other universes were coming to this one, and the only way to stop it was to erase the memories of everyone in every universe.
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Superman's Pal
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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008 Posts: 5,730
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: Grey Gargoyle] Posted Sat Dec 25, 2021 at 12:51:43 am CST (Viewed 103 times) |
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I really enjoyed it!
It did however occur to me that this was basically an experiment to see what would happen if a movie was constructed entirely of fan service. In this case, the answer was that it was great!
This is what CW tried to do on a smaller budget with Crisis on Infinite Earths but it just did not work. And apparently what they're doing in the next Flash movie.
I thought the most obvious omission though, if the spell brought back everyone who knew Peter was Spider-Man, even if they were dead, the final villain should have been Mysterio. I mean he was the architect of this whole plot anyway.
Good thing it didn't bring back Thanos.
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The Black Guardian
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Location: Paragon City, RI Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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Subject: Re: Spider-Man : No Way Home - I had a great time! :) [Re: zvelf] Posted Sun Dec 26, 2021 at 01:01:14 pm CST (Viewed 102 times) |
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The most logical assumption, for me, is that in their universes, there are only Spider characters. Period.
Not that it really matters. The universes are for all intents and purposes gone now.
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