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Blue Beetle




Action Comics #858 SPOILERS


Three comments:

1) Gary Frank is a weird choice to draw Superman. His characters all look psychotic, like they want to gnaw on human bones.

2) Why does Perry White says that Clark has no friends but Jimmy Olsen, when Clark is married to Lois Lane? Doesn't Lois count?

3) The Legion of Super-Heroes... the real one, the one that Clark was a member of... they're back. (swoon) "If my friends are in danger, I'm going." (swoon) There are no words. DC has righted one of their greatest wrongs. The alignment of the universe has been reset to its proper coordinates. God is in His heaven and all is right with the world.




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Niddle




> Action Comics #858 SPOILERS
>
>
> Three comments:
>
> 1) Gary Frank is a weird choice to draw Superman. His characters all look psychotic, like they want to gnaw on human bones.

And this is wrong because.....? ;\-\)

>
> 2) Why does Perry White says that Clark has no friends but Jimmy Olsen, when Clark is married to Lois Lane? Doesn't Lois count?

All things considered, I wouldn't want someone needing to list my wife as one of my friends, especially if that makes the list two names long. I'd rather stick with the one.

>
> 3) The Legion of Super-Heroes... the real one, the one that Clark was a member of... they're back. (swoon) "If my friends are in danger, I'm going." (swoon) There are no words. DC has righted one of their greatest wrongs. The alignment of the universe has been reset to its proper coordinates. God is in His heaven and all is right with the world.

Ahhh...

But WHAT did they call teenaged Clark?

And WHAT Earth do they come from? And who are the ones Kara was with? (And WHY in the world did DC decide to separate them so they've teamed up with different versions?!?!?!)


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omike015




> 1) Gary Frank is a weird choice to draw Superman. His characters all look psychotic, like they want to gnaw on human bones.

It isn't Frank as much as Jon Sibal's inking. Cam Smith inked Frank during his run on SUPERGIRL and it looked much better. Dave McCaig's coloring doesn't help, either. He's using very pale colors for the flesh and deeper, richer colors for the costumes.

omike015
:-|



kandor.monkeylord.net (10.0.1.245)
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rc




Frank has always had abhorrent anatomy, in my opinion -- his heads are always disproportionately large compared to his bodies, for instance. In addition, he's not very dynamic, I don't think. He's no great shakes to me.

_rc


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Blue Beetle




> > 2) Why does Perry White says that Clark has no friends but Jimmy Olsen, when Clark is married to Lois Lane? Doesn't Lois count?
>
> All things considered, I wouldn't want someone needing to list my wife as one of my friends, especially if that makes the list two names long. I'd rather stick with the one.


Really the whole scene struck me as weird. He's married to the newspaper's alpha female and he's still viewed as a nerd?


> > 3) The Legion of Super-Heroes... the real one, the one that Clark was a member of... they're back. (swoon) "If my friends are in danger, I'm going." (swoon) There are no words. DC has righted one of their greatest wrongs. The alignment of the universe has been reset to its proper coordinates. God is in His heaven and all is right with the world.
>
> Ahhh...
>
> But WHAT did they call teenaged Clark?


Kal-El. Spelled correctly. Was it odd that they would do that?


>
> And WHAT Earth do they come from?


Good question.


>
> And who are the ones Kara was with?


Good question but hopefully that version will simply disappear and be forgotten. It's been ignored by the Supergirl comic so I'm hoping DC just calls a halt to the experiment and lets it fade into the unreferenced past.


> (And WHY in the world did DC decide to separate them so they've teamed up with different versions?!?!?!)


Because DC honestly thought the goofy Waid version would sell. Weird, I agree.




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Gernot




> > > 3) The Legion of Super-Heroes... the real one, the one that Clark was a member of... they're back. (swoon) "If my friends are in danger, I'm going." (swoon) There are no words. DC has righted one of their greatest wrongs. The alignment of the universe has been reset to its proper coordinates. God is in His heaven and all is right with the world.
> >
> > Ahhh...
> >
> > But WHAT did they call teenaged Clark?
>
>
> Kal-El. Spelled correctly. Was it odd that they would do that?
>
>

I think Niddle meant "Did they call him SuperBOY or did they call him SuperMAN? Which code-name did the Legion use?"

:)

Gernot...

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darth-sinister




> > > 2) Why does Perry White says that Clark has no friends but Jimmy Olsen, when Clark is married to Lois Lane? Doesn't Lois count?
> >
> > All things considered, I wouldn't want someone needing to list my wife as one of my friends, especially if that makes the list two names long. I'd rather stick with the one.
>
>
> Really the whole scene struck me as weird. He's married to the newspaper's alpha female and he's still viewed as a nerd?
>
>
> > > 3) The Legion of Super-Heroes... the real one, the one that Clark was a member of... they're back. (swoon) "If my friends are in danger, I'm going." (swoon) There are no words. DC has righted one of their greatest wrongs. The alignment of the universe has been reset to its proper coordinates. God is in His heaven and all is right with the world.
> >
> > Ahhh...
> >
> > But WHAT did they call teenaged Clark?
>
>
> Kal-El. Spelled correctly. Was it odd that they would do that?
>
>
> >
> > And WHAT Earth do they come from?
>
>
> Good question.
>
>
> >
> > And who are the ones Kara was with?
>
>
> Good question but hopefully that version will simply disappear and be forgotten. It's been ignored by the Supergirl comic so I'm hoping DC just calls a halt to the experiment and lets it fade into the unreferenced past.
>
>
> > (And WHY in the world did DC decide to separate them so they've teamed up with different versions?!?!?!)
>
>
> Because DC honestly thought the goofy Waid version would sell. Weird, I agree.

Uh, DC is still using Waid's version and has no plans right now, to abandon them. Johns has a plan for the Legion, as referenced by "The Legion Of Three Worlds" concept.


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Blue Beetle




> > Because DC honestly thought the goofy Waid version would sell. Weird, I agree.
>
> Uh, DC is still using Waid's version and has no plans right now, to abandon them. Johns has a plan for the Legion, as referenced by "The Legion Of Three Worlds" concept.


There's a Jim Shooter Legion book coming out, so I guess I'll just say I'm confused and leave it at that, except to say that Waid's version should be cancelled and forgotten forever, because if Clark wasn't a member, it isn't the Legion.




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darth-sinister




> > > Because DC honestly thought the goofy Waid version would sell. Weird, I agree.
> >
> > Uh, DC is still using Waid's version and has no plans right now, to abandon them. Johns has a plan for the Legion, as referenced by "The Legion Of Three Worlds" concept.
>
>
> There's a Jim Shooter Legion book coming out, so I guess I'll just say I'm confused and leave it at that, except to say that Waid's version should be cancelled and forgotten forever, because if Clark wasn't a member, it isn't the Legion.


Jim Shooter is going to be using Mark Waid's Legion. He's been very upfront about that. Geoff Johns is using a variation of the Silver Age Legion, only it seems that he is skipping certain details. Not that long ago, it was revealed that there is a Legion adventure known as "The Legion Of Three Worlds". Meaning that there are three versions of the Legion. The one that Clark has grown up knowing. The one that Supergirl knows. And one more. In Action Comic #850, the Waid Legion is surprised that Superman is a member. But that is because he was with the Silver Age/Geoff Johns Legion.

BTW, in Superman 670, Kara tells Power Girl that she recognizes Karsta from a vision of the future. Indicating that she remembers her time with the Legion, with Brainiac 5 hooked up to that machine that would allow her to look into the past.


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BMK!





Not that long ago, it was revealed that there is a Legion adventure known as "The Legion Of Three Worlds". Meaning that there are three versions of the Legion. The one that Clark has grown up knowing. The one that Supergirl knows. And one more.



The third team would be the Post-Zero Hour team which was replaced by the Waid team.

-BMK!-


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Blue Beetle




> Jim Shooter is going to be using Mark Waid's Legion. He's been very upfront about that. Geoff Johns is using a variation of the Silver Age Legion, only it seems that he is skipping certain details. Not that long ago, it was revealed that there is a Legion adventure known as "The Legion Of Three Worlds". Meaning that there are three versions of the Legion. The one that Clark has grown up knowing. The one that Supergirl knows. And one more. In Action Comic #850, the Waid Legion is surprised that Superman is a member. But that is because he was with the Silver Age/Geoff Johns Legion.


The above paragraph has completely ruined my evening. \:'\(

Why would DC continue with a Legion that didn't know Superman? I don't get it. What possible value is there in that?




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omike015




> Why would DC continue with a Legion that didn't know Superman?

Because it's selling as good or better than any Legion title in the last 12 years?

>I don't get it. What possible value is there in that?

The same -- if not more -- as the "possible value" in rebooting for the third time in little over a decade.

omike015
:-|



kandor.monkeylord.net (10.0.1.245)
using Fortress Kryptonian Browsing Matrix v1.9.38 (0 points)
KW




I'm not much of a DC reader so my information about all things DC is not really extensive. I HAVE been reading the Teen Titans since the Johns relaunch. So if there are three different Legions, two of which we can identify for sure, could someone fill me in on which Legion Superboy (Conner Kent) was a member of in Teen Titans (right before the original Titans of Tomorrow arc?)

> > > > Because DC honestly thought the goofy Waid version would sell. Weird, I agree.
> > >
> > > Uh, DC is still using Waid's version and has no plans right now, to abandon them. Johns has a plan for the Legion, as referenced by "The Legion Of Three Worlds" concept.
> >
> >
> > There's a Jim Shooter Legion book coming out, so I guess I'll just say I'm confused and leave it at that, except to say that Waid's version should be cancelled and forgotten forever, because if Clark wasn't a member, it isn't the Legion.
>
>
> Jim Shooter is going to be using Mark Waid's Legion. He's been very upfront about that. Geoff Johns is using a variation of the Silver Age Legion, only it seems that he is skipping certain details. Not that long ago, it was revealed that there is a Legion adventure known as "The Legion Of Three Worlds". Meaning that there are three versions of the Legion. The one that Clark has grown up knowing. The one that Supergirl knows. And one more. In Action Comic #850, the Waid Legion is surprised that Superman is a member. But that is because he was with the Silver Age/Geoff Johns Legion.
>
> BTW, in Superman 670, Kara tells Power Girl that she recognizes Karsta from a vision of the future. Indicating that she remembers her time with the Legion, with Brainiac 5 hooked up to that machine that would allow her to look into the past.


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darth-sinister




> I'm not much of a DC reader so my information about all things DC is not really extensive. I HAVE been reading the Teen Titans since the Johns relaunch. So if there are three different Legions, two of which we can identify for sure, could someone fill me in on which Legion Superboy (Conner Kent) was a member of in Teen Titans (right before the original Titans of Tomorrow arc?)

That was the post "Zero Hour" Legion. They were the result of the Legion from an earlier point in time, meeting with the Legion crica 1990, when M'Onel/Lar Gand/Valor replaced Superboy/Clark Kent/Kal-El as the inspiration for the Legion. The two merged during "Zero Hour" and when the book picks up again, we see a new continuity. In this time, the Legion comes to the 20th Century to help out a young Lar Gand, who has amnesia and was being used as a prize fighter. He takes on Superboy/Kon-El/Conner Kent. Once exposed to lead, Lar begins to remember and is put in the Stasis Zone used by Superman villian Loophole. It is later revealed to be the Phantom Zone. The Legion frees and cures Lar, who goes back to the 30th Century. This Legion was in existence before the Waid version.

It is possible that this is the other Legion, but it could be a brand new one. Or one based off an Elseworlds' tale.


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darth-sinister




>
> Not that long ago, it was revealed that there is a Legion adventure known as "The Legion Of Three Worlds". Meaning that there are three versions of the Legion. The one that Clark has grown up knowing. The one that Supergirl knows. And one more.
>
>
>
> The third team would be the Post-Zero Hour team which was replaced by the Waid team.
>
> -BMK!-

Possible. It might also be something seen in a popular Elseworlds tale or something new.


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Blue Beetle




> > Why would DC continue with a Legion that didn't know Superman?
>
> Because it's selling as good or better than any Legion title in the last 12 years?


Which is probably pretty poorly, right? Does it sell over 50K?


> >I don't get it. What possible value is there in that?
>
> The same -- if not more -- as the "possible value" in rebooting for the third time in little over a decade.


Going back to the original isn't a reboot. It's righting a sequence of wrongs.

Oh well. All of a sudden I have a reason to care about Final Crisis. Maybe Morrison will eliminate the Waid-verse.

Meanwhile, I won't be buying the current book. I stupidly ordered the first Jim Shooter issue because I thought I knew what I was ordering, but I was mistaken. When the issue arrives, I'll tear it up and toss it in the trash.




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darth-sinister




> > > Why would DC continue with a Legion that didn't know Superman?
> >
> > Because it's selling as good or better than any Legion title in the last 12 years?
>
>
> Which is probably pretty poorly, right? Does it sell over 50K?

The book sold well in the beginning and improved when Supergirl joined, though declined when Waid and Kitson left. In October of 2004, it was at 40K which was pretty good coming off of "Infinite Crisis" and before Waid's departure.


> > >I don't get it. What possible value is there in that?
> >
> > The same -- if not more -- as the "possible value" in rebooting for the third time in little over a decade.
>
>
> Going back to the original isn't a reboot. It's righting a sequence of wrongs.
>
> Oh well. All of a sudden I have a reason to care about Final Crisis. Maybe Morrison will eliminate the Waid-verse.

Uh, no. I don't think it's going anywhere yet. Besides, I believe "Final Crisis" is basically trying to tie up all the loose ends.

> Meanwhile, I won't be buying the current book. I stupidly ordered the first Jim Shooter issue because I thought I knew what I was ordering, but I was mistaken. When the issue arrives, I'll tear it up and toss it in the trash.

That's not a good thing to do. Just return it or send it to a comic book store. I know that you don't like it, but that is a waste of your moeny and someone else could benefit from that issue.

Anyway, there is no guarantee that even with Shooter or Johns writing a classic Legion that the sales would stay high for long. Between crossover burnout and fickle readership, this is probably going to be the best you'll get.

Right now, having two teams works. It allows both Johns and Shooter to do their own thing, without having to worry about interference.


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Niddle




> > I'm not much of a DC reader so my information about all things DC is not really extensive. I HAVE been reading the Teen Titans since the Johns relaunch. So if there are three different Legions, two of which we can identify for sure, could someone fill me in on which Legion Superboy (Conner Kent) was a member of in Teen Titans (right before the original Titans of Tomorrow arc?)
>
> That was the post "Zero Hour" Legion. They were the result of the Legion from an earlier point in time, meeting with the Legion crica 1990, when M'Onel/Lar Gand/Valor replaced Superboy/Clark Kent/Kal-El as the inspiration for the Legion. The two merged during "Zero Hour" and when the book picks up again, we see a new continuity. In this time, the Legion comes to the 20th Century to help out a young Lar Gand, who has amnesia and was being used as a prize fighter. He takes on Superboy/Kon-El/Conner Kent. Once exposed to lead, Lar begins to remember and is put in the Stasis Zone used by Superman villian Loophole. It is later revealed to be the Phantom Zone. The Legion frees and cures Lar, who goes back to the 30th Century. This Legion was in existence before the Waid version.
>
> It is possible that this is the other Legion, but it could be a brand new one. Or one based off an Elseworlds' tale.

Let's correct something here.

The pre-ZeroHour Legion versions (a "five years older" group, and their younger clones) did not actually merge. This may have been expected by the characters, but the truth is they simply ceased to exist.

Zero Hour "zeroed out" the timeline they existed in, and their version of the 30th century vanished, along with them.

The Legion book then rebooted, and we saw a new version of the creation of the Legion, with Garth, Imra, and Rokk being its first members. Other characters were quickly added as we saw the Legion's history replayed in slightly varying ways.

As for Lar Gand, just before Zero Hour hit the modern era, the last thing we saw of him was him being sent into the Phantom Zone (or whatever it was being called at the time), not due to lead poisoning, but simply because history required it.

After Zero Hour, we learn that this last event never happened.

Lar's being known as "Valor" was still a part of post-ZH continuity, and he was discovered to be now living on Earth by Kon-El, Lar being used as a fighter by some guy who was taking advantage of him having amnesia.

Kon immediately recognized him as "Valor" and it turned out Lar was suffering from the early stages of lead poisoning, this being the cause of the amnesia.

Superboy used his tactile telekinesis to hold together a klunky Phantom Zone projector (built by an Earth scientist, if memory serves) so it'd work long enough to get Lar into the Zone.

Shortly after this the Legion arrived and took Kon to the future with them to help with Brainiac 5's efforts to build a PZ machine that could rescue Valor. Saturn Girl could see Kon's mind held the "blueprint" of the PZ device that'd saved Lar, apparently due to Kon's TK field having held the thing together.

With Kon's help Lar was rescued, and Kon became the Superboy with the connection to Lar Gand and the Legion, a new post-ZH version of the pre-Crisis situation, Kon now being in young Clark's role.

Since Infinite Crisis, we've learned that Lar's connection to young Clark has been restored, Clark being the one who saved him with the PZ machine.

My personal guess is that this has erased Kon's having any connection to ANY version of Lar, that part of his history being re-written.

The problem is that the Titans did have an encounter with the post-ZH Legion (in part due to Kon's connection to that version), then meeting older versions of themselves on the way back to the modern day.

That encounter with "older versions of us!" seems to still be in continuity, however. This suggests their contact with the post-ZH Legion is also still in continuity.

Lar's having been put in the Zone back when Clark was a youth seems to have made impossible his having been known to Superman and Kon as a present day galactic hero known as "Valor", however.

Did Kon actually have contact with the Legion from one of the other 52 Earths of the multi-verse? (Not the one Clark knew?) Twice?!?! Was it somehow THEIR version of Lar that Kon helped?

We don't know, and all of this started with Waid being allowed to introduce a new version of the 30th century (and its Legion) for Kara to play with, no thought being given to how it'd affect continuity for Kon, the Titans, etc.

Personally, I feel someone needs to be hit with pies. I'm just not sure who or how many.


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Niddle




>
> ...I stupidly ordered the first Jim Shooter issue because I thought I knew what I was ordering, but I was mistaken. When the issue arrives, I'll tear it up and toss it in the trash.


NO.

The correct step to take is tossing it into a bonfire.

Really...

Some people just have no understanding where "destroying" is concerned.

Tisk tisk tisk.


\:\-p


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Blue Beetle




> Right now, having two teams works. It allows both Johns and Shooter to do their own thing, without having to worry about interference.


Do you think Johns will continue with the real Legion after his current story arc ends? If so, that will be great! Even if it continues as simply a component of future Superman stories, that will be far better than nothing.




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darth-sinister




> > Right now, having two teams works. It allows both Johns and Shooter to do their own thing, without having to worry about interference.
>
>
> Do you think Johns will continue with the real Legion after his current story arc ends? If so, that will be great! Even if it continues as simply a component of future Superman stories, that will be far better than nothing.
>
>

Technically, this isn't the real Legion either. It's based off of them, but due to copyrights and certain changes that have been and may be revealed, it won't be a 100% exact replica. We already know this because Karate Kid is alive in the present day, but he was dead before "Crisis On Infinite Earths". After this arc, they're set to return again as part of the Legion's big anniversary. What will happen to them beyond "The Legion Of Three Worlds", is up in the air. They'll still be part of Superman's backstory, but future guest appearences are still fuzzy, as far as we know.


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