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fuggernaut


Member Since: Sat Oct 23, 2021


For all the endless revisiting of Crises and continuity, I'm amazed no writer ever tackled this. It's always been an annoying brain worm to me that there wasn't some issue showing pre-crisis Superman "alteration" into post-crisis Superman, as pre-crisis Superman did NOT die!

At the end of COIE 12, E1 Superman is a survivor on the last remaining Earth. Of course, E1 was the "main" Superman and there was never a formal distinction between him and E2 Superman until a 70s retcon.

Then comes Moore's "imaginary story" WHTTMOT which happens in the future and features E1 Superman post-crisis. We know this because he mourns the dead Supergirl!

Then a few months later the Byrne reboot happens which of course wipes out the prior history and any memory of such.

But not too long later it is understood that post-crisis Superman fought in the COIE (but with selective memories) which actually placed "Man of Steel" taking place pre-crisis! And post-crisis Superman would have pre-Crisis memories of Robin, Teen Titans, and other things.

I think someone mentioned there was an an obscure issue of some title that showed that "memory wave" hit the denizens of the last Earth after COIE and that's why their memories or histories changed or something. Anyone know this issue by chance?

But it's always been an annoying brain worm to me that there wasn't some issue showing pre-crisis Superman "alteration" into post-crisis Superman, as pre-crisis Superman did NOT die!

Some people just assume that pre-crisis Superman become post-crisis Superman, while others are adamant that they are two different guys.

I'm astounded that Geoff Johns never tackled this in all his continuity heavy crisis work.





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Superman's Pal

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
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The story you're probably talking about spans Young All-Stars Annual #1 and Infinity Inc Annual #2. It involves time-travel with the two teams facing Mekanique and Per Degaton.

Infinity Inc was a book originally set on Earth-2 Pre-Crisis in the 1980s and it continued Post-Crisis and it had to square its history with the new timeline somehow. Young All-Stars was a Post-Crisis book set in the 1940s that explored the new Post-Crisis version of that decade. To that end it replaced the 1940s Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman with Iron Munro, Flying Fox and Fury, etc.

The two-parter ends with the revision wave that replaces Earth-2 Superman in a classic JSA photo with the new history.

I think you're right that nothing similar was done with Earth-1 Batman or Superman. It was weird that after Man of Steel came out, the next month we had the Superman title rebooting old Superman lore from scratch like with Metallo, yet over in Action Comics he was meeting the Titans and they were recalling past adventures.

The piecemeal reboot was the cause of many problems and was part of why they did the JLA Year One series and the 1995 Year One Annuals to try to establish some of that Post-Crisis Earth-1 revised history.

EDIT: I mean if it's easier we could say that "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" was the future of Earth-1 Superman and maybe The Dark Knight Returns is the future of Earth-1 Batman. Everything Post-Crisis is brand new characters.

It doesn't, and perhaps can't, make sense. The Crisis involved multiple Earths and in the new history, there was only ever one Earth. So there shouldn't have ever been a Crisis in the new history. Yet it's recalled for example in War of the Gods when Pariah shows up. Or in Zero Hour. Or in JLA Incarnations where they say the Crisis happened but the Anti-Monitor was attacking multiple time periods on the one Earth.



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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,053


I remember the first Whos Who treated them as the same. Not long after D.C. noted that perhaps they should have added separate entries for the two. I do not know if that was ever addressed. It would be interesting to see them meet. My opinion is they were two separate beings. With all the changes since then it is nigh impossible to make distinctions on Superman origins. I suspect the people on this board might be up to the task.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I thought that the COIE made it that he was now the rebooted version, and that new earth, and then the latest revamp made him orph all prior versions into who he is now>


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Wasn't the E1 superman though the one that morphed into the New earth superman?


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Daveym 

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:
    For all the endless revisiting of Crises and continuity, I'm amazed no writer ever tackled this. It's always been an annoying brain worm to me that there wasn't some issue showing pre-crisis Superman "alteration" into post-crisis Superman, as pre-crisis Superman did NOT die!



    Quote:
    At the end of COIE 12, E1 Superman is a survivor on the last remaining Earth. Of course, E1 was the "main" Superman and there was never a formal distinction between him and E2 Superman until a 70s retcon.



    Quote:
    Then comes Moore's "imaginary story" WHTTMOT which happens in the future and features E1 Superman post-crisis. We know this because he mourns the dead Supergirl!

You have to remember that Alan Moore's story is 'Imaginary', a tribute to those Silver-Age imaginary stories. Over in DC Comics Presents, published a little later If I recall correctly, you get a deviation from that story, and this issue is arguably the last appearance of the Pre-Crisis Superman. Or... was it actually Booster Gold #6? Hmm....

Whatever. Another fly in the ointment comes with Superman #416, which is a lovely story by Elliot Maggin looking again at the complex character of the Pre-Crisis Lex Luthor and the relationship Superman has with him.
This story is set partly in the present-day but as reflected by an aged wiser Superman in the far future - there is nothing saying this story is out of canon, so in my view this is perhaps a story that is more canonical that 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'.


    Quote:
    Then a few months later the Byrne reboot happens which of course wipes out the prior history and any memory of such.



    Quote:
    But not too long later it is understood that post-crisis Superman fought in the COIE (but with selective memories) which actually placed "Man of Steel" taking place pre-crisis! And post-crisis Superman would have pre-Crisis memories of Robin, Teen Titans, and other things.

No, the idea was that there was a new history now where in this revised universe Superman fought in a Crisis yes, but it didn't involve other universes, and there was no Supergirl or Earth-2 Superman involved.


    Quote:
    I think someone mentioned there was an an obscure issue of some title that showed that "memory wave" hit the denizens of the last Earth after COIE and that's why their memories or histories changed or something. Anyone know this issue by chance?

One example was the final issue of All-Star Squadron, another was the four-part Legend of Wonder Woman series by Kurt Busiek and Trina Robbins.


    Quote:
    But it's always been an annoying brain worm to me that there wasn't some issue showing pre-crisis Superman "alteration" into post-crisis Superman, as pre-crisis Superman did NOT die!

It depends on how you look at it. the aftermath of the Crisis was a messy affair that left a lot of holes and continuity problems that went on for decades afterwards. The thinking was that the rebooted Superman was the Pre-Crisis Superman, revised. It's only in more recent years and with the '52' universes concept that there were some suggestions that Earth-1 wasn't the earth we were seeing in the main DCU, but was an earth that still existed out there in the returned multiverse.


    Quote:
    Some people just assume that pre-crisis Superman become post-crisis Superman, while others are adamant that they are two different guys.



    Quote:
    I'm astounded that Geoff Johns never tackled this in all his continuity heavy crisis work.


He has actually! But even he seems to flip-flop on the question.

Back in 2006's Infinite Crisis he uses the Earth-2 Superman to retell the story of the original multiverse and his relationship with the Earth-1 Superman. Johns makes it clear enough here that the post-1986 Superman is a revised Earth-1 Superman. His history and universe reordered by the Crisis. It's here that Johns also reveals that the merged earth at the end of the 1985 Crisis contained an additional earth - Earth 8. Which had been the original home to new generation heroes like Kyle Rayner & Jason Rusch. We could infer that the Superman of the post-crisis earth contained elements of the earths that had merged as he had elements of the Earth-2 Superman in his new background and possibly Earth-8 elements (the Byrne Krypton). And all of this was very reasonable analysis and a clearing-up from Geoff Johns.

But later, after their '52' event reintroduces a new multiverse, Johns does a Justice Society Annual that revisits the original Earth-2 and we see it in a modernday context. Power Girl is searching for her Earth-2, but is told that the earth of post 1986 has to be a completely different earth to her Earth-1 and 2. And her Earth-2 and 1 is somewhere still out there.

Later in the recent Doomsady clock series we are told by Doctor Manhattan that the earth-1 at the end of Crisis is still out there and carried on, the earth we read about in the DCU is a whole other world entirely.

So which is it? The above explanation, or Johns' original "merged-earth" of 2006s Infinite Crisis?

At this point I don't think it matters, as it's all fiction....












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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


The perfect to have brought him back would have been when the New earth and new 52 merged, as they could have stated right then he had now returned!


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Superman's Pal

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,730


I mean like Daveym shows in his post above, there are different interpretations of that. But whether Post Crisis Superman was E1 Superman changed, or a different character, is really splitting hairs.

The fact is that most of Earth 1 Superman's history was ditched so he's a different character in execution either way. We see all of his villains like Luthor, Brainiac, Metallo, Bizarro, all get reset. So even when you can say his history with the Justice League is still intact from Earth 1, it's Earth-1 history minus any episodes that featured any of those Superman characters. Which is why we got JLA Year One to show what the League's history was like without Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Similar to Earth-1 but different.

Also, Post-Crisis Superman came from a very different Krypton than Earth-1's. There was no Supergirl, Krypto, Zod, Phantom Zone, Kandor, Argo City, at least not for many years and most of the iterations that came later were either imports from another universe or if they appeared in the main DCU, it was after more reboots.


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swmcbf



Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,053


I had a long reply for your comment. On completion I realized it all boiled down to " I have no idea." \:\-\)


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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,053


I think that issue of Booster Gold was the first appearance of post-crisis. Weirdly enough I remember how one fan caught on because Superman did not recognize the Legion ring he was wearing. Not sure how B.G. ended up with that ring since the Legion was 500 years or so after the 25th century he was from.


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RAB


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,260


And frankly, a lot of editorial didn't want to reference Crisis at all and if it was a choice between not indulging the elephant in the room or indulging it, a lot of teams chose the former over the later.

And considering how messy the Pocket Universe and other stories that tried to explain things got, can you really blame them?

But anymore, I think it's a given that the current Supes isn't the Pre-Crisis E1 version and that guy lives on his own Earth. Mostly because you got stories like Convergence that now state that COIE never happened and you even had the Peter David Supergirl storyline "Many Happy Returns".

Which, for those who don't remember, had the Pre-C Supergirl get sent to our Earth, where Linda Danvers decided to try to spare Kara her fate of dying by taking her place in the Pre-Crisis Universe. Which had her marrying that version of Superman and having a daughter with him (which was heavily implied, if not outright stated, became the Supergirl of the 853rd Century aka DC 1 Million), until it all got undone because Kara not dying had some universal implications.




Ryan Brandt
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Daveym 

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



You're probobly right on the Booster Gold issue yes - I just recall it feeling very much pre-crisis Superman, it had that feel and look about it, but checking the dates shows that issue is July '86 dated while Action Comics #583 and DC Comics Presents #97 are both dated Sept. '86

The stories in all three of these books clash with each other markedly - and in real terms DCCP #97 IS the final published appearance of the Pre-Crisis Superman at that time. A bleak story to go out on frankly, but the hugely disorganised fragmented way that Pre-Crisis Superman gives way to the Post-Crisis version shows off the reality that there was no clear cut-off point to that era. Pre-Crisis Superman didn't exit with grace, he just faded away and somewhere, somehow, suddenly *stopped* existing.





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fuggernaut


Member Since: Sat Oct 23, 2021



    Quote:
    Pre-Crisis Superman didn't exit with grace, he just faded away and somewhere, somehow, suddenly *stopped* existing.


Yes, this is what bothers me. It is a very graceless and unclear exit. And the silver/bronze age Superman is just such a giant of a character, I find it disturbing.

Also, it's not entirely clear to me that "Infinite Crisis" established post-crisis Superman as a revised pre-crisis Superman.

I mean, wouldn't E2 Superman say to Superman, "Hey buddy, you don't remember me anymore, but I knew you well. You're different than you were before." or something to that effect?

E1 Superman's whereabouts having been hanging in the breeze for 40 years!






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Daveym 

Moderator

Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008




    Quote:

      Quote:
      Pre-Crisis Superman didn't exit with grace, he just faded away and somewhere, somehow, suddenly *stopped* existing.



    Quote:
    Yes, this is what bothers me. It is a very graceless and unclear exit. And the silver/bronze age Superman is just such a giant of a character, I find it disturbing.



    Quote:
    Also, it's not entirely clear to me that "Infinite Crisis" established post-crisis Superman as a revised pre-crisis Superman.

The explanation was in issue #2, where Earth-2 Superman is reunited with Power Girl and is trying to awaken her memories of the Multiverse and Earth-2. He explains the history of both earths, and how the histories of the earths were merged together at the end of the Crisis.

It's worth remembering too that in one of the early post-crisis issues of Superman (Action #590 with the Metal Men) John Byrne touches on this as he explains Chemo's background, and his last appearance in Crisis #9.
Byrne's text reveals a curious but telling narration - "Weeks ago on a Parallel Earth that no longer exists.." - Weeks ago?
Here Byrne is certainly confirming that the Crisis happened (and was published) just weeks ago yes, but that his Superman had no awareness of its true breadth, and was already established as Superman for a good ten years by this point... a demonstration of reality having been rewritten.


    Quote:
    I mean, wouldn't E2 Superman say to Superman, "Hey buddy, you don't remember me anymore, but I knew you well. You're different than you were before." or something to that effect?


Earth-2 Superman had stepped out of reality at the end of the Crisis. He was looking out as the remaining Earth reformed and its new history solidified. So he knew that while this was technically Earth-1 Superman is was a Superman who had a different background, and had never experienced either the Multiverse or other 'Supermen'.










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swmcbf


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 4,053


That last paragraph is just- well creepy and yuck and I choose to ignore it. Marvel went several steps beyond that a few years ago when they has Bruce marry She-Hulk and have a family of inbred hillbilly offspring. I think it may have been in Old Man Wolverine? I believe Hulk actually ripped Logan apart and ate him. The kicker was Wolverine then rip Hulk apart from the inside. That's some fine reading if you are into the Texas Chainsaw massacre type of frame of mind.


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RAB


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,260


Unlike Mark Millar's tripe, Peter David made it clear that Earth-1 Superman knew Linda's story of being his cousin Kara from Krypton was bunk from the get-go (due to wearing a blond wig and her clothes were made from Earthly materials).

He just went along with it to try to root out Linda's true intentions (friend or foe) and fell for her by her selfless acts. Although the story doesn't explicitly say it, I figure that version Superman would definitely let the world know the woman he's marrying isn't his cousin ;\)




Ryan Brandt
---
Writer of Ideas
Creator of Stuff

Check out out my Deviantart page!
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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Thought that the intent of the New earth Superman was to have him as really being E1 version, but morphing into current one?


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


I liked the implied explanation that while the Superman did not change Himself, the Universe was rebooted after COIE, and under differewnt laws of reality, he was not allowed to be PC pwerful any more!


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Daveym 

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Location: Lancashire
Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008



It wasn't just Superman who was scaled back - so was The Flash. Before the Crisis Barry Allen could run at multi lightspeed, after it he was retroactively scaled back to just the speed of light as a maximum. There seemed to be a change in the DCU physics where Newton's rules of physics were applied and suddenly no one could exceed the speed of light (bar the Pocket Universe Superboy and Mon-el apparently!).





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Superman's Pal

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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 5,730


Perhaps the so-called Speed Force is the retroactive explanation. If that's something that didn't exist before the Crisis, and was created by Barry Allen's death, it might have (whether purposefully or accidentally) created a barrier. As I recall when Wally finally learned to exceed lightspeed in the 90s that was when he first crossed the barrier that Max Mercury had dubbed the Speed Force.



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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


That to me was a much better and simpler way to explain afterwards, as was same characters, just not allowed to be nearly as powerful before due to new reality and laws in operation!


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


IF Barry still created the Speedforce, would that not make him mot powerful person?


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