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Author
CHOSEN 1!!!


Member Since: Thu Sep 30, 2021


I miss those days man!
Thor had some killer slobber knockers back then!
Seems like after Thor lost to Superman in the crossover he just lost his grandeur!
Like Marvel was upset about the fan backlash and was like okay...you Think Thor is unbeatable? well we'll show you he's not!
And then butt kicking after butt kicking came one after the other!
I can't be the only one who made this connection.

Anyways sorry for getting off track but man I miss those Jurgens days and seeing Thor kick royal behind!


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015



    Quote:
    I miss those days man!
    Thor had some killer slobber knockers back then!


Yes the halcyon days of Thor when the comic was not trying to be deconstructed and had a writer in charge who genuinely seemed to respect the character.


    Quote:
    Seems like after Thor lost to Superman in the crossover he just lost his grandeur!


Not sure I agree. We just had a string of writers who either didn't get enough time (Oeming, Giffen), were too decompressed and late (JMS) or started abusing the character for their own agenda (the current crop).


    Quote:
    Like Marvel was upset about the fan backlash and was like okay...you Think Thor is unbeatable? well we'll show you he's not!


That doesn't sound very logical. Also don't recall Marvel ever saying he was unbeatable.

[qiote]And then butt kicking after butt kicking came one after the other!

I can't be the only one who made this connection.


Interesting theory, but its the writers writing these stories, the outcomes are not based on gambling odds due to prior win/loss streak.


    Quote:
    Anyways sorry for getting off track but man I miss those Jurgens days and seeing Thor kick royal behind!


Back then Thor had respect. But I think the problems of the past 15 years are more a case of writer ideology than because Thor took a few losses in the early 2000's.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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CHOSEN 1!!!


Member Since: Thu Sep 30, 2021


It just felt personal to me...even though I know that's a ridiculous notion it's just how it felt.

But you're right and thanks for taking the time to give me your opinion on the matter.

You hit it spot on with the decompression issue!
That's the biggest thing I find with Cates current run..

4 issues of his would of been one issue back in the 70's and 80's...

It's like reading the Sunday comics and waiting an entire month as opposed to a week for like 5 minutes of reading material!

It's infuriating to me...


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786



    Quote:
    I miss those days man!
    Thor had some killer slobber knockers back then!
    Seems like after Thor lost to Superman in the crossover he just lost his grandeur!
    Like Marvel was upset about the fan backlash and was like okay...you Think Thor is unbeatable? well we'll show you he's not!
    And then butt kicking after butt kicking came one after the other!
    I can't be the only one who made this connection.



    Quote:
    Anyways sorry for getting off track but man I miss those Jurgens days and seeing Thor kick royal behind!


I would say it has nothing to do with Thor vs. Superman, and more to do with the sentiment at the time to scale down Thor. This was during the era where Thor was thought to be vulnerable to bullets, and when many of his potent abilities were said to be situational (e.g. he could only summon portals when the stars aligned). This was probably done to make Thor much more of a team character than a solo character.

To be fair to Marvel, Thor is probably more powerful now (without the Odin-Power) than he was back then.

I was honestly not a big fan of Jurgens, but I understand why some people were. To me he was did what DeFalco did, only less effectively. His run basically fell apart when he distanced his stories from the Lee/Kirby stuff.


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015



    Quote:
    It just felt personal to me...even though I know that's a ridiculous notion it's just how it felt.


That's understandable though, its how all fans feel when their hero (whether fictional or sporting) is beaten.


    Quote:
    But you're right and thanks for taking the time to give me your opinion on the matter.


I'm a big fan of Dan Jurgens' run which I consider the last great run on the comic.


    Quote:
    You hit it spot on with the decompression issue!
    That's the biggest thing I find with Cates current run..


I stopped buying it after the first arc which had too many plot holes and contrivances.


    Quote:
    4 issues of his would of been one issue back in the 70's and 80's...


Yes they write graphic novels (which then get chopped up) instead of writing comics.

Kids today would think these modern offerings were simply boring and while I understand the medium and demographic have evolved, in my opinion they have stretched this decompression beyond the pale.


    Quote:
    It's like reading the Sunday comics and waiting an entire month as opposed to a week for like 5 minutes of reading material!



    Quote:
    It's infuriating to me...


Decompression should not be allowed in modern comics; its one of the factors killing the industry. Save it for graphic novels.






You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Volstagg jr


Member Since: Wed Feb 12, 2020


Jurgens wrote Thor with respect even if most of his fights were like a Hulk Hogan wrestling match. Thor would be on the ropes in the initial encounter and then state he was tired of holding back and kick the villain's ass, he did this over and over.

I think current marvel has a lot of writers who didn't grow up reading or liking Thor. I remember a few years ago in Avengers vs X-Men, Thor lost month after month against a Phoenix force X-Man. It got so redundant, it was downright absurd. Thor certainly doesn't get to be the hero to save the day like in the old times.

The decompression style of story telling is a tough pill to swallow. It's like going to a restaurant and getting a plate full of garnish and when the main course finally arrives, it's a 2 oz. steak that's overcooked and a crunchy baked potato. You probably don't walk away feeling like you got your money's worth.


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015



    Quote:
    Jurgens wrote Thor with respect even if most of his fights were like a Hulk Hogan wrestling match. Thor would be on the ropes in the initial encounter...


Either you have an exciting fight, with a legit tough opponent where Thor is in danger of defeat, OR you have a one-sided squash.


    Quote:
    and then state he was tired of holding back and kick the villain's ass, he did this over and over.


I don't recall the epic fights with the Destroyer, Perrikus, The Enchanters, Mangog, Thanos, Gladiator or Desak going down like that. Perhaps I am remembering them wrong.


    Quote:
    I think current marvel has a lot of writers who didn't grow up reading or liking Thor. I remember a few years ago in Avengers vs X-Men, Thor lost month after month against a Phoenix force X-Man. It got so redundant, it was downright absurd. Thor certainly doesn't get to be the hero to save the day like in the old times.


Political agenda.


    Quote:
    The decompression style of story telling is a tough pill to swallow. It's like going to a restaurant and getting a plate full of garnish and when the main course finally arrives, it's a 2 oz. steak that's overcooked and a crunchy baked potato. You probably don't walk away feeling like you got your money's worth.


IMO comic stories should be a mix of 1, 2 or 3 issue lengths, not 6, 8 or 12.

Save 140+ page stories for the summer crossover or graphic novels.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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JT23


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2020


No Hickman. His portrayal of Thor was superb. His battle to the death with Hyperion and Starbrand against the Beyonders was moving and epic.

Also Thor in Infinity was brilliant. The battles throughout but especially his final battle with Thanos.


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Norvell


Member Since: Sun Jan 02, 2011
Posts: 3,786



    Quote:

      Quote:
      Jurgens wrote Thor with respect even if most of his fights were like a Hulk Hogan wrestling match. Thor would be on the ropes in the initial encounter...



    Quote:
    Either you have an exciting fight, with a legit tough opponent where Thor is in danger of defeat, OR you have a one-sided squash.



    Quote:

      Quote:
      and then state he was tired of holding back and kick the villain's ass, he did this over and over.



    Quote:
    I don't recall the epic fights with the Destroyer, Perrikus, The Enchanters, Mangog, Thanos, Gladiator or Desak going down like that. Perhaps I am remembering them wrong.


I thought it had become something of a trope in Jurgens' writing. He'd lose the first round, lick his wounds, then win the second round through sheer conviction.

I was critical of this at the time, especially with how he beat the Destroyer, which really no amount of effort or conviction should allow. Either you have the goods to beat the Destroyer or you don't.

There are circumstances in some of these encounters, such as Scarlet Witch putting a hex on Mjolnir during the Enchanters rematch. Or Thor blasting Mangog in the mouth.

In retrospect, it's not that big of a deal. But it was definitely Jurgens' style to employ this 'comeback, Rocky-esque' mentality.


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JesusFan


Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008


Thor losing to Superman not that big of a deal, but when he became the punching bag for the hulk and then others, became a real problem!


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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015


Hey Norvell,


    Quote:
    I thought it had become something of a trope in Jurgens' writing. He'd lose the first round, lick his wounds, then win the second round through sheer conviction.


Even assuming that was the case...that's just called writing a good comic battle and the main reason Jurgen's fights were EPIC in a way the recent crop of writers can't understand ( perhaps those writers never watched the Rocky movies? ).

By showing the hero in trouble you build up both the threat of the villain and enhance the hero's eventual victory over them.

The alternative is an easy squash: Like every Fem-Thor fight (lets throw Mangog into the Sun) or Thor vs. Black Winter (one hitter quitter).


    Quote:
    I was critical of this at the time, especially with how he beat the Destroyer, which really no amount of effort or conviction should allow. Either you have the goods to beat the Destroyer or you don't.


Did he 'beat' the Destroyer or just momentarily 'stun' the host long enough to use Battlefield Removal and take it to a remote planet?

Thor had already shown willingness to die battling the Destroyer and in an EPIC (Jurgen's) moment gets hit by its Disintegration.

That was just such a brilliant first arc.


    Quote:
    There are circumstances in some of these encounters, such as Scarlet Witch putting a hex on Mjolnir during the Enchanters rematch.


The Enchanters can control Mjolnir, Thor circumnavigated the problem by getting the aid of Scarlet Witch.


    Quote:
    Or Thor blasting Mangog in the mouth.


That Mangog moment is one of the most EPIC Thor moments of all time. Jurgen's answered the question of how to beat the unbeatable foe. It was such a great scene that Jason Aaron referenced it in the Mangog story he'd "always wanted to write".


    Quote:
    In retrospect, it's not that big of a deal. But it was definitely Jurgens' style to employ this 'comeback, Rocky-esque' mentality.


Hero in trouble (Builds threat and excitement) - Hero makes comeback over tough threat (Increases worth of the victory and reader joy).

Problem: Destroyer is invincible. Solution: Battlefield removal.
Problem: You can't beat the Dark Gods without Odin. Solution: Free the All-wise
Problem: Enchanters control Mjolnir. Solution: Get a Witch to block their sorcery.
Problem: Mangog's hide is too tough to do any real damage. Solution: Blast him on the inside.

Each time Thor is given a problem he RISES to the challenge and finds a solution.

Contrast that with any of the past 4+ writers and I'd be curious if we can even find a single fight that plays out with the Problem/Solution dynamic.

Peppered in between Jurgen's EPIC battles were the smaller fights: Sedna, Herc (friendly brawl), Replicus, Tokkots, Wrecking Crew etc. Where Thor won't necessarily be in that much trouble.




You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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Upper_Krust


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2015



    Quote:
    No Hickman. His portrayal of Thor was superb. His battle to the death with Hyperion and Starbrand against the Beyonders was moving and epic.



    Quote:
    Also Thor in Infinity was brilliant. The battles throughout but especially his final battle with Thanos.


Two things:

1. None of that was done it the Thor comic. But I agree Hickman did write a good Thor.

2. Its much easier to write an 'epic' when you kill a character off. Problem is you can't really get away with that trick more than once in a run otherwise its a 'cry wolf' situation.






You address Omnipotence...tread carefully.
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JT23


Member Since: Fri Aug 21, 2020


Agreed. Tbf the portrayal in Infinity etc wasn't a death. Just a shame he never got a full run on Thor. Think he would have been great.


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