Avengers >> View Post
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Post By
Jeff Harvey

In Reply To
MysteryMan

Subj: Ever Read the Aftermath of the Secret Empire Story?
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 10:34:09 pm EST
Reply Subj: Re: Thank you Captain America [SPOILERS]
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 11:11:06 am EST

Previous Post

Sigh....I'll try and reply here...wall of text makes things very difficult to do so...

> Here is where we step into the twilight zone. We are trying to find logic in a comic book scenario.
>
And how is this wrong?

For a story to make any sense and have any cohesion there has to be some logical frame work or it's just an acid trip. Comics are fantasy where you suspend disbelief on the things that can be done...magic etc... you do NOT suspend disbelief in how characters act...you need plausible reasoning for why the hero/viliian/extra/etc...acts the way they do. If you don't there is nothing for the reader to associate with.

I find the argument...hey these are comics we don't need logic to them to be false and self serving, in others words used primarily to sweep something inherently wrong with the story under the rug.

>You are actually comparing super heroes that fight super powered villians to Magneto??? Come on.
>

If you look at what I said you'll see my point was...if a hero never questions his own motives then yes he is on the path of the Magneto's.
My point was we have multiple issues showing Tony questioning himself if he is doing the right thing. It's a noble thing to continually question your own motives.

For Cap all we see him doing is accussing everyone of betraying him, letting him down..destroying "HIS" America. Yes he has the right to feel this way...but he NEVER has questioned his own motives or actions. Read Front Line...it is pointed out where he thinks only his side is patriotic...and he has NO response when so accused.

In general Cap is the moral compass of the MU. Call it a disservice if you like (and I do personally) but he is not so here. people say well its a war you have to get down and dirty and thats all Cap is doing...then they call foul play when the other side does as well.

>Step back and look at the picture. The Avengers historically operated outside governments because the super powered threats operated outside governments.

You clearly dont know your Avengers...go read the Casey stuff it shows how very intregal the govt. and the Avengers have been all along.

>Captain America earned everyone's respect and followed him with out questions. That would never happen under Iron Man.

See here without rancor I have to say you are full of it. Tony has lead very effectivly many Avengers teams, and your sweeping statement about Cap is blatantly wrong.

Galactic Storm and the Kree Supreme big head raise any flags.
Kooky quartet raise any flags?

It's clear by your statement that we really cant converse. You hold Tony in total disregard for all he has done and raise Cap up on a pedastle. Personally I love both characters and feel they both have been done a disservice by this arc.

There is some good stuff to CWar...but a lot of bad writing and continuity isnt even there between one issue and the next. But I call Tony wrong where he is wrong and Cap wrong where he is wrong.

They are BOTH wrong...my point is at least Tony has a PLAN for what happens after...he questions himself constantly. Where as Cap seems to have no such moderating affect on him.

>Captain America made certain that everyone was properly trained and coordinated.

Like the New Avaengers who have no training yet he is nown using as shock troops...you bring up Hitler a lot...lets point out that was what he did with young people as well...threw them into the war with little or no training...don't see this on the pro-reg side do you?

>This new Avengers are basically the LA Lakers of the last three years (not this one). They acted as individual and got their butts kicked.

You just said Cap trained them all...after all it was because of him they formed together in the first place after he convinced Tony to do so.

>If you really kept up on the Avengers, Iron Man (his drunken, lusting, untrustworthy self, Captain America

See once again an example of why we cant truly talk about this...Cap and his pedastle. You seem to forget about things like...Tony walking into a room filled with Red Skulls poison dust to save Caps life at the cost of his own...he didnt die but he fully expected to and should have.

The differnce between our arguments is I dont feel the need to belittle Cap to proove my points.

>This isn't about laws. There were law restricting what Blacks could and couldn't do in this country.

And this isnt about not letting super heroes eat wherer they want or forcing them sit in the back of the bus. It belittles all the incredable troubles the black community went through in those times to do so. It is about....

>Of course, one has to follow certain rules in order to have a civilized society.

This and ....

>This Registration act also forces legal citizens to have to either sign up and serve or go to jail.

This....how is this ANY different from having to register for the draft when you are 18. Everyone has to do it, and everyone has the potential to be forced to go to war for their country. It's one fo those things you accept if you want to live in this country.

>Back up. You seriously don't see something wrong with this?

Not at all...I registred for the draft at 18...did you?

>This is the loop hole that Marvel put into the Registration act that really made it bad. This is why America has the Good Samaritan Law. It protects people that volunteer in bad situations to help the helpless from legal action.

And that still stands...the Registration LAW is you have to register and TRAIN if you want to be an ACTIVE super hero. If not just register and if something happens you can still try and save lives.

You may cite some comics where they insinuated there might be more...well guess what those are spin-offs. They are not the main CWar title. Marvel has really screwed up continuity between titles. But when it comes down to it...I look at what the Main title not spin-offs. And in the mian title there is nothing saying you cant save someones life with your powers...Firestar had no problems retiring did she now?

> > > > One could say the same about Tony...Tony idolizes Cap yet he knows what he is doing is right(Tony has freely given hios life up to save Caps before thinking him the better man)...THAT is courage...Cap just thinks Stark is a punk
> > > Tony Stary doesn't know what he is doing is right, he believes it is, but knowing is another thing altogether. He is a zealot that is following the majority, not considering whom it hurts. And he is probably one of the easiest characters to "take out". He has no super powers, no super senses and he is the worst traitor of all, in my opinion.
> >
> > If anything this makes him a LOT smarter/less crazy then Cap. He is doing what he believes to be right...but he has shown times when he isnt sure and has doubts so he questions his motives and actions...Cap is a fanatic who never asks himself the tough question..."is what I am doing right?" thats the mind of a despot an insane person. That is a zealot...you need to look up the definition of the word. He is following what the DEMOCRATICALLY elected govt. enacted as law with support of the people...Cap is a traitor since he puts himself above not just the law but the people...Mr. Dictator hello.
>
> the only thing that I can say about what you wrote above, is that you really don't know Captain America very well. I collected his books from the 1940's to now. The person/character you described is definitely not Captain America. He defines the weak, helpless, enslaved, and freedom. Not stupid laws. Again, Slavery laws anyone???

1) You ignored what I said....Cap isnt even questioning his own motives here.

2) I seem to know him better then you...since it BOTHERS me he is not doing so...this isn't the Capt. America I know who would seriously consider things before throwing punches.

3) The Capt. America of the 40's is not the same as the 60's and not the same as the 80's etc...he has evolved as he has gained life experiences...I would hope he has gained some wisdom in that time.

4) This is not a slavery law... it's easy to throw these terms out...they just arnt even close to the mark...they sound compelling but have no substance.

>Would you defend slavery laws? Would you step forward in violation of slavery laws and fight against them? If no, then I know where you stand. There are four types of people. 1) good people that know something is wrong and do nothing. 2) good people that know something is wrong and do something. 3) bad people that know something is wrong and do nothing and 4) bad people that cause the problems.

Ok here I'll take a page from your book. No I would not defend it but obviously I know what kind of person you are for being against thios new law. Since normal people are SLAVES to the whims of the super powered people and you want to keep thinsg that way.

See how that kind of argument works? Filled with emotion...filled with passion...mildly insulting at the least...and filled with not a shred of proof about you but now I have classified you in a negative light. Not a good way to debate.

> > > > > ...for hitting the Punisher real good for killing those two jabronies...
> > > > After letting him on the team right after he killed 2 other criminals...yep Cap's looking bright on this one...let Castle do all that dirty work for him so he keeps looking good.
> > >
> > > Where or why would you have a problem with him killing the two characters that were trying to hurt or kill Spiderman? I'm not following you on this one. Of course those two should have been taken out. They were trying to seriously hurt or kill one of the best heroes around. What would you have done. Stopped known killers/sadist and ask them to stop and walk away. You see a friend being hurt you act first and get them out of there.
> >
> > They HURT spiderman...you dont kill people for hurting someone else...if you truly believe it is ok to kill someone for punching you...well we have nothing more to talk about. They "wanted" to kill Spiderman...but they couldnt...and they had STOPPED beating on him and were about to take him in when Punisher cowardly blew them away from behind.
>
> They were trying to kill him and to anyone watching from afar that is exactly what it looked like. You forgot who was attacking Spiderman. They were two complete psyco criminals with no scruples against killing anyone, that spider man was fighting. of course you take them out. If it was Wonderman or some other known prior hero fighting Spiderman then no, you don't kill them. You step in and help stop the fighting. But these two clowns? Of course you take them out.

Wrong...go back and read it...they WANTED to kill him. Those nanites you expect to fail prevented them from even seriously considering it. The fight was OVER...and thats when the Punisher struck, after they already could have killed him.

And no thats NOT how you take them out...see thats the dang reason to pass this law so people/heroes like the Punisher don't assign themselves Judge...Jury...and Executioner. Where is your view on not standing up against bad laws in this? You think there should be laws allowing police to gun down some bad guys from behind after they beat someone up? Say some thugs mugged this poor old lady and she is on the ground at their feet and they are rifling through her purse...you support the "shoot them in the back" rather then shouting them to "freeze or I will shoot" law?

> > > Quite honestly, I am almost to the point where that should have happened years ago. You fight super powered people trying to kill others and simply capture them and what happens? they either escape capture as usual so that other stories can be written, or they break out of jail and kill some one else.
> >
> > It's called due process and such. Then again why not let Cap decide which laws everyone should follow and which ones not.
>
> You again are confusing the super hero world with real life.

No I am talking about people still behaving like people regardless of the genre. Lok up at the first response I made...characters in the story still need to act like people and in at least somewhat believable ways or its just an acid trip.

>Super heroes fight super villians. Marvel introduced a wonderful concept. Super fighters in the employ of the government.

You have just spoken out against such a thing. As for heroes needing to act outside govt. super vision...do you really expect them NOT to have black ops teams...go read some Wolverine...SHIELD has used him for these non-sanctioned things all the time. It's just "off the books".

>However, what happens when the government steps outside the lines and gets out of control?

>Remember Hitler and Nazi Germany? Some one must be prepared to step forward and fight the established evil goverment. If everyone is registered and under the employ of a government, that cannot happen.

Wrong...just because your registered doesnt mean you cant step forward and oppose what you see as wrong. Where do you get this from? Registers hey can still vote for who they want...they dont have to be govt. agents...they can form picket lines and say whatever the heck they want.

What they can't do is run around using their powers however they want without now having to be responsible for their actions, and being held accou ntable for them.

> Sigh....I'll try and reply here...wall of text makes things very difficult to do so...
>
> > Here is where we step into the twilight zone. We are trying to find logic in a comic book scenario.
> >
> And how is this wrong?
>
> For a story to make any sense and have any cohesion there has to be some logical frame work or it's just an acid trip. Comics are fantasy where you suspend disbelief on the things that can be done...magic etc... you do NOT suspend disbelief in how characters act...you need plausible reasoning for why the hero/viliian/extra/etc...acts the way they do. If you don't there is nothing for the reader to associate with.
>
> I find the argument...hey these are comics we don't need logic to them to be false and self serving, in others words used primarily to sweep something inherently wrong with the story under the rug.
>
> >You are actually comparing super heroes that fight super powered villians to Magneto??? Come on.
> >
>
> If you look at what I said you'll see my point was...if a hero never questions his own motives then yes he is on the path of the Magneto's.
> My point was we have multiple issues showing Tony questioning himself if he is doing the right thing. It's a noble thing to continually question your own motives.
>
> For Cap all we see him doing is accussing everyone of betraying him, letting him down..destroying "HIS" America. Yes he has the right to feel this way...but he NEVER has questioned his own motives or actions. Read Front Line...it is pointed out where he thinks only his side is patriotic...and he has NO response when so accused.
>
> In general Cap is the moral compass of the MU. Call it a disservice if you like (and I do personally) but he is not so here. people say well its a war you have to get down and dirty and thats all Cap is doing...then they call foul play when the other side does as well.
>
> >Step back and look at the picture. The Avengers historically operated outside governments because the super powered threats operated outside governments.
>
> You clearly dont know your Avengers...go read the Casey stuff it shows how very intregal the govt. and the Avengers have been all along.
>
> >Captain America earned everyone's respect and followed him with out questions. That would never happen under Iron Man.
>
> See here without rancor I have to say you are full of it. Tony has lead very effectivly many Avengers teams, and your sweeping statement about Cap is blatantly wrong.
>
> Galactic Storm and the Kree Supreme big head raise any flags.
> Kooky quartet raise any flags?
>
> It's clear by your statement that we really cant converse. You hold Tony in total disregard for all he has done and raise Cap up on a pedastle. Personally I love both characters and feel they both have been done a disservice by this arc.
>
> There is some good stuff to CWar...but a lot of bad writing and continuity isnt even there between one issue and the next. But I call Tony wrong where he is wrong and Cap wrong where he is wrong.
>
> They are BOTH wrong...my point is at least Tony has a PLAN for what happens after...he questions himself constantly. Where as Cap seems to have no such moderating affect on him.
>
> >Captain America made certain that everyone was properly trained and coordinated.
>
> Like the New Avaengers who have no training yet he is nown using as shock troops...you bring up Hitler a lot...lets point out that was what he did with young people as well...threw them into the war with little or no training...don't see this on the pro-reg side do you?
>
> >This new Avengers are basically the LA Lakers of the last three years (not this one). They acted as individual and got their butts kicked.
>
> You just said Cap trained them all...after all it was because of him they formed together in the first place after he convinced Tony to do so.
>
> >If you really kept up on the Avengers, Iron Man (his drunken, lusting, untrustworthy self, Captain America
>
> See once again an example of why we cant truly talk about this...Cap and his pedastle. You seem to forget about things like...Tony walking into a room filled with Red Skulls poison dust to save Caps life at the cost of his own...he didnt die but he fully expected to and should have.
>
> The differnce between our arguments is I dont feel the need to belittle Cap to proove my points.
>
> >This isn't about laws. There were law restricting what Blacks could and couldn't do in this country.
>
> And this isnt about not letting super heroes eat wherer they want or forcing them sit in the back of the bus. It belittles all the incredable troubles the black community went through in those times to do so. It is about....
>
> >Of course, one has to follow certain rules in order to have a civilized society.
>
> This and ....
>
> >This Registration act also forces legal citizens to have to either sign up and serve or go to jail.
>
> This....how is this ANY different from having to register for the draft when you are 18. Everyone has to do it, and everyone has the potential to be forced to go to war for their country. It's one fo those things you accept if you want to live in this country.
>
> >Back up. You seriously don't see something wrong with this?
>
> Not at all...I registred for the draft at 18...did you?
>
> >This is the loop hole that Marvel put into the Registration act that really made it bad. This is why America has the Good Samaritan Law. It protects people that volunteer in bad situations to help the helpless from legal action.
>
> And that still stands...the Registration LAW is you have to register and TRAIN if you want to be an ACTIVE super hero. If not just register and if something happens you can still try and save lives.
>
> You may cite some comics where they insinuated there might be more...well guess what those are spin-offs. They are not the main CWar title. Marvel has really screwed up continuity between titles. But when it comes down to it...I look at what the Main title not spin-offs. And in the mian title there is nothing saying you cant save someones life with your powers...Firestar had no problems retiring did she now?
>
> > > > > One could say the same about Tony...Tony idolizes Cap yet he knows what he is doing is right(Tony has freely given hios life up to save Caps before thinking him the better man)...THAT is courage...Cap just thinks Stark is a punk
> > > > Tony Stary doesn't know what he is doing is right, he believes it is, but knowing is another thing altogether. He is a zealot that is following the majority, not considering whom it hurts. And he is probably one of the easiest characters to "take out". He has no super powers, no super senses and he is the worst traitor of all, in my opinion.
> > >
> > > If anything this makes him a LOT smarter/less crazy then Cap. He is doing what he believes to be right...but he has shown times when he isnt sure and has doubts so he questions his motives and actions...Cap is a fanatic who never asks himself the tough question..."is what I am doing right?" thats the mind of a despot an insane person. That is a zealot...you need to look up the definition of the word. He is following what the DEMOCRATICALLY elected govt. enacted as law with support of the people...Cap is a traitor since he puts himself above not just the law but the people...Mr. Dictator hello.
> >
> > the only thing that I can say about what you wrote above, is that you really don't know Captain America very well. I collected his books from the 1940's to now. The person/character you described is definitely not Captain America. He defines the weak, helpless, enslaved, and freedom. Not stupid laws. Again, Slavery laws anyone???
>
> 1) You ignored what I said....Cap isnt even questioning his own motives here.
>
> 2) I seem to know him better then you...since it BOTHERS me he is not doing so...this isn't the Capt. America I know who would seriously consider things before throwing punches.
>
> 3) The Capt. America of the 40's is not the same as the 60's and not the same as the 80's etc...he has evolved as he has gained life experiences...I would hope he has gained some wisdom in that time.
>
> 4) This is not a slavery law... it's easy to throw these terms out...they just arnt even close to the mark...they sound compelling but have no substance.
>
> >Would you defend slavery laws? Would you step forward in violation of slavery laws and fight against them? If no, then I know where you stand. There are four types of people. 1) good people that know something is wrong and do nothing. 2) good people that know something is wrong and do something. 3) bad people that know something is wrong and do nothing and 4) bad people that cause the problems.
>
> Ok here I'll take a page from your book. No I would not defend it but obviously I know what kind of person you are for being against thios new law. Since normal people are SLAVES to the whims of the super powered people and you want to keep thinsg that way.
>
> See how that kind of argument works? Filled with emotion...filled with passion...mildly insulting at the least...and filled with not a shred of proof about you but now I have classified you in a negative light. Not a good way to debate.
>
> > > > > > ...for hitting the Punisher real good for killing those two jabronies...
> > > > > After letting him on the team right after he killed 2 other criminals...yep Cap's looking bright on this one...let Castle do all that dirty work for him so he keeps looking good.
> > > >
> > > > Where or why would you have a problem with him killing the two characters that were trying to hurt or kill Spiderman? I'm not following you on this one. Of course those two should have been taken out. They were trying to seriously hurt or kill one of the best heroes around. What would you have done. Stopped known killers/sadist and ask them to stop and walk away. You see a friend being hurt you act first and get them out of there.
> > >
> > > They HURT spiderman...you dont kill people for hurting someone else...if you truly believe it is ok to kill someone for punching you...well we have nothing more to talk about. They "wanted" to kill Spiderman...but they couldnt...and they had STOPPED beating on him and were about to take him in when Punisher cowardly blew them away from behind.
> >
> > They were trying to kill him and to anyone watching from afar that is exactly what it looked like. You forgot who was attacking Spiderman. They were two complete psyco criminals with no scruples against killing anyone, that spider man was fighting. of course you take them out. If it was Wonderman or some other known prior hero fighting Spiderman then no, you don't kill them. You step in and help stop the fighting. But these two clowns? Of course you take them out.
>
> Wrong...go back and read it...they WANTED to kill him. Those nanites you expect to fail prevented them from even seriously considering it. The fight was OVER...and thats when the Punisher struck, after they already could have killed him.
>
> And no thats NOT how you take them out...see thats the dang reason to pass this law so people/heroes like the Punisher don't assign themselves Judge...Jury...and Executioner. Where is your view on not standing up against bad laws in this? You think there should be laws allowing police to gun down some bad guys from behind after they beat someone up? Say some thugs mugged this poor old lady and she is on the ground at their feet and they are rifling through her purse...you support the "shoot them in the back" rather then shouting them to "freeze or I will shoot" law?
>
> > > > Quite honestly, I am almost to the point where that should have happened years ago. You fight super powered people trying to kill others and simply capture them and what happens? they either escape capture as usual so that other stories can be written, or they break out of jail and kill some one else.
> > >
> > > It's called due process and such. Then again why not let Cap decide which laws everyone should follow and which ones not.
> >
> > You again are confusing the super hero world with real life.
>
> No I am talking about people still behaving like people regardless of the genre. Lok up at the first response I made...characters in the story still need to act like people and in at least somewhat believable ways or its just an acid trip.
>
> >Super heroes fight super villians. Marvel introduced a wonderful concept. Super fighters in the employ of the government.
>
> You have just spoken out against such a thing. As for heroes needing to act outside govt. super vision...do you really expect them NOT to have black ops teams...go read some Wolverine...SHIELD has used him for these non-sanctioned things all the time. It's just "off the books".
>
> >However, what happens when the government steps outside the lines and gets out of control?
>
> >Remember Hitler and Nazi Germany? Some one must be prepared to step forward and fight the established evil goverment. If everyone is registered and under the employ of a government, that cannot happen.
>
> Wrong...just because your registered doesnt mean you cant step forward and oppose what you see as wrong. Where do you get this from? Registers hey can still vote for who they want...they dont have to be govt. agents...they can form picket lines and say whatever the heck they want.
>
> What they can't do is run around using their powers however they want without now having to be responsible for their actions, and being held accou ntable for them.

Cap gave up the identity and posed as Nomad after who Steve Englehart wanted us to believe was Richard Nixon killed himself in the White House in front of Cap. He also questioned himself after his revival and after Galactic Storm.


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