Avengers >> View Post
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Post By
Happy Hogan

In Reply To
Bagheera

Subj: Re: *raising eyebrow*
Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:28:04 am EDT
Reply Subj: *raising eyebrow*
Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 at 07:46:51 pm EDT

Previous Post

> > But let me just say this too: Having Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team (especially at the same time) stinks of a sales stunt. And in this fan's opinion, each of them belong on the Avengers about as much as Reed or Sue. And we all know how well that went down...
>
> Sure it's a sales stunt. So What? It's not as much of a sales stunt and Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman being on the same team. And in a time of diminishing comic book sales. what's wrong with sales gimicks like that?

Um, you do realize Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman were all featured on the same team in Justice League of America issue #1, right? Decades ago? When the Silver Age DC Universe was still in its infancy?

And what's wrong with gimmicks? Hell, the fact they're gimmicks. Look what eventually happened with holo-foil/variant covers and the like.

It will eventually divide the fans.

Sure, Bendis' "SuperFriends" is working out all right now. But what happens in several years when fans start clamoring for their "classic" Avengers? And the new "hot" writers want to avoid having to deal with Spidey or Wolverine or Dr. Strange in another team book? Or they want to write a hip new Power Man and Iron Fist book?

I mean, just say this with me: "Wolverine is in both the X-Men and the Avengers." Let that sink in. If you don't start chuckling, then you must have started reading comics in just the last few years...

> And for the sake of the whole publishing house franchise, it makes sense to define how your best selling characters relate to each other. That's actually been overdone with Supes and Bats, but with Spider-Man and Wolverine, it's really still reasonably fresh territory.

Wha-? Superman and Batman have been shown to be friends for decades.

And even without this new version of "Marvel SuperFriends," Logan and Parker still managed to have a "team-up" nearly every year or so...

> > (In fact, in 1991, there was an Avengers arc - written by Byrne, I believe - that perfectly explained why Spidey would really never "fit in" as an Avenger. And I remember it making a good bit of sense at the time.)
>
> So what was that reason? From what I've heard, while John Byrne is an outstanding artist, and fairly talented writer, he never really got a good "take" on Spider-Man.

Byrne, when on his game, is actually quite a talented writer. (Side note: A friend got me to pick up his run on Namor several years back, and - DAMN - it was shockingly sophisticated, complex, dense, and action-packed. And a real treat for fans of both Power Man and Iron Fist and The Invaders.)

From what I can recall, Spider-Man joins the Avengers in the wake of "Acts of Vengeance" because the team could use the extra "muscle." But then the entire universe is wiped out of existence, they fight The Stranger, and then Nebula. All the while, Spidey is having a hard time wrapping his head around all of these cosmic happenings. The Avengers (consisting of Cap, Thor, Shellhead, Vision, and Sersi), meanwhile, are taking it all in as if it's just another day's work.

Once the mission ends and the universe is back to normal, Cap asks Spidey if he'd like to speak in private. Before Cap can launch into anything, Spidey says that he's just not sure he's comfortable tackling big monsters, cosmic weirdness, and other Avengers-related "stuff." Cap breathes a sigh of relief and says he was just about to say the same thing - that Spider-Man didn't seem ready for all of that. Cap then says the jobs Spider-Man accomplishes are important because the Avengers just don't have the time to tackle street-level crime. Or to look out for the "little guy" as they're trying to protect billions of innocents at a time.

The two then shake hands as a sign of mutual respect. And Spidey swings away.


> > > But let me just say this too: Having Spider-Man and Wolverine on the team (especially at the same time) stinks of a sales stunt. And in this fan's opinion, each of them belong on the Avengers about as much as Reed or Sue. And we all know how well that went down...

With Reed and Sue, I could never figure out why they would bother to be lowly rank and file Avengers members when already own the Baxter building and run the Fantastic Four. Being two ordinary members seemed to me like ... um .. I dunno, slumming?
> >
> > Sure it's a sales stunt. So What? It's not as much of a sales stunt and Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman being on the same team. And in a time of diminishing comic book sales. what's wrong with sales gimicks like that?
>
> Um, you do realize Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman were all featured on the same team in Justice League of America issue #1, right? Decades ago? When the Silver Age DC Universe was still in its infancy?
>
> And what's wrong with gimmicks? Hell, the fact they're gimmicks. Look what eventually happened with holo-foil/variant covers and the like.
Holo-foil/variant covers was a differnt sort of gimmick. One that didn't have any sort of story.
>
> It will eventually divide the fans.
I don't Spidey & Wolverine on the team will. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
>
> Sure, Bendis' "SuperFriends" is working out all right now. But what happens in several years when fans start clamoring for their "classic" Avengers? And the new "hot" writers want to avoid having to deal with Spidey or Wolverine or Dr. Strange in another team book? Or they want to write a hip new Power Man and Iron Fist book?

The New Avengers aren't "SuperFriends", they're fugitive heroes. That's a much higher concept than anything the "Mighty" team has going for it.
>
> I mean, just say this with me: "Wolverine is in both the X-Men and the Avengers." Let that sink in. If you don't start chuckling, then you must have started reading comics in just the last few years...

I read comics when people could say with me: "She Hulk is in both the Avengers and the Fantastic Four." Nobody had a problem with it.


> > And for the sake of the whole publishing house franchise, it makes sense to define how your best selling characters relate to each other. That's actually been overdone with Supes and Bats, but with Spider-Man and Wolverine, it's really still reasonably fresh territory.
>
> Wha-? Superman and Batman have been shown to be friends for decades.
Which means that any concept of team-up with those two has been done to death.

>
> And even without this new version of "Marvel SuperFriends," Logan and Parker still managed to have a "team-up" nearly every year or so...

But there hadn't been anything consistant with how the dynamics between the two of them work. And for this reason I'm glad Bendis is writing it. He seems to have the best take on both characters.
>
> > > (In fact, in 1991, there was an Avengers arc - written by Byrne, I believe - that perfectly explained why Spidey would really never "fit in" as an Avenger. And I remember it making a good bit of sense at the time.)
> >
> > So what was that reason? From what I've heard, while John Byrne is an outstanding artist, and fairly talented writer, he never really got a good "take" on Spider-Man.
>
> Byrne, when on his game, is actually quite a talented writer. (Side note: A friend got me to pick up his run on Namor several years back, and - DAMN - it was shockingly sophisticated, complex, dense, and action-packed. And a real treat for fans of both Power Man and Iron Fist and The Invaders.)
>
> From what I can recall, Spider-Man joins the Avengers in the wake of "Acts of Vengeance" because the team could use the extra "muscle." But then the entire universe is wiped out of existence, they fight The Stranger, and then Nebula. All the while, Spidey is having a hard time wrapping his head around all of these cosmic happenings. The Avengers (consisting of Cap, Thor, Shellhead, Vision, and Sersi), meanwhile, are taking it all in as if it's just another day's work.

Yup that's what I mean by not getting Spidey. Byrne would have you think Spider-Man is an incompetant boob.

>
> Once the mission ends and the universe is back to normal, Cap asks Spidey if he'd like to speak in private. Before Cap can launch into anything, Spidey says that he's just not sure he's comfortable tackling big monsters, cosmic weirdness, and other Avengers-related "stuff." Cap breathes a sigh of relief and says he was just about to say the same thing - that Spider-Man didn't seem ready for all of that. Cap then says the jobs Spider-Man accomplishes are important because the Avengers just don't have the time to tackle street-level crime. Or to look out for the "little guy" as they're trying to protect billions of innocents at a time.

Except that plenty of Avengers worked on "street level crime" all the time. (Most notably Captian America himself, in his own book.) And I found it odd, since we've never seen Cap talk to any other potentail Avengers in such a condesending way. (Like D-Man, for instance.) And some of those who showed up at the doorstep to be Avengers were kind of nobodies.

And if the guy that sponsored D-Man to get into the Avengers didn't think Spider-Man had what it takes, well, maybe Byrne doesn't "get" Captain America either.



Happy Hogan


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