Avengers >> View Post
Post By
Happy Hogan

In Reply To
Century: Your Alien Hero

Subj: Re: Cloning: The Way of The Future
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 11:52:25 pm CST
Reply Subj: Cloning: The Way of The Future
Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 at 10:51:25 pm CST

Previous Post

> > > Stark,reed,namor,blackbolt,xavier, strange have made things worse in the 616. Think about it itwas them who invaded the skrull world and confronted the skrulls which led them to get captured and the lessons learned by the skrulls allowed them to create these new super skrulls.
> >
> > As much as they may have angered the Skrulls with that, even if they never did it, what are the chances that the Skrulls would honestly stop trying to invade Earth? Seriously.
> >
> > > Also now thanks to them taking the infinty gems the skrulls have the space gem.
> >
> > That all depends on how long Black Bolt has been a Skrull, no? We don't know yet.
> >
> > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
>
> to Tycoon: I really see that as the Hulk's bad more than the Illuminati's. The Hulk was pissed off at FOUR people, and he put an entire city in danger just to get back at them. Plus, I personally would hate to be bound and held prisoner on evidence as flimsy as what he Hulk had on Stark, Richards, Strange, and Black Bolt.

Exactly. By the time of WWH, Hulk's rage is less about being exiled in the first place, and much more about the explosion that wrecked his world and ended his bigamous second marriage. And Miek played him like Tetris, he was easily convinced that the Illuminati tried to kill him using a bomb which would've had to have the slowest countdown in history. If he'd actually stopped to think about it for even a minute, he should've figured it out.

> > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
>
> Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.

Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.

Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.

> > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
>
> to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
>
> BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.

Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.

> > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> >
> > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
>
> Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.

This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.

> And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.

Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.

> > > and lets not forget stark knew parts of dta from ultron where still there and didn't do anything about it.
> >
> > He didn't exactly have much chance to do anything about it between #6-7, did he now?
> >
> > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> >
> > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > a) Thor would ever be back?
>
> Irrevelant to the debate.

With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.

> > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
>
> Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!

Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.

> If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?

Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!

> And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?

I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.

> > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!

No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.

> He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.

Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?

> > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
>
> Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.

But he didn't make it to that uninhabited planet. And it could just as easily have been a planet without the means or resources to handle an angry Hulk. The illuminati doesn't get of the hook for this.

>
> Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
>
> > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> >
> > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> >
> > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
>
> Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.

You really mean that being smarter makes him better? Because that sounds incredibly ableist. Do you think that the mentally handicapped are inferior? I haven't been one to say "Tony Stark is evil" but if he has that attitude, then I'm changing my opinion of him right now! He needs to be taken down!


> > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > >
> > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> >
> > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
>
> This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.

LOL!! Ok, I agree that the Avengers are usually composed of shallow people. That's an issue for another post, and I'm working on that list now. But I haven't read The Order. Where does Stark inform the world about what he's doing?
>
> > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
>
> Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.

And the trouble with controlling the weather is you can't get something for nothing. If you make it rain to relieve famine in one area of the world, you decrease the mostiure in the atmosphere, meaning famines in another area of the world will be more likely.


> > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > >
> > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> >
> > Irrevelant to the debate.
>
> With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.
>
> > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> >
> > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
>
> Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
Wait a minute, isn't Strife a villain? And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked. If he (Parker) had given permission, he would be as responsible as the Jackal for Kaine and all the clones that went wrong and went on killing people. Peter is innocent however because basically he was raped. Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.

>
> > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
>
> Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!
>
> > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
>
> I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.

You better prove it before you claim that. ;\-\)
>
> > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
>
> No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
>
> > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
>
> Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?

Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.

Happy Hogan