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Subj: Our Victory Is Inevitable
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 07:12:13 pm EST
Reply Subj: The Inevitable
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 01:59:55 pm EST
> > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn't land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn't really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he'd ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let's face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we'd pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > >
> > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > >
> > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > >
> > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
> He'd apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.
What have we learned about paying attention to time-scales that comics actually give us. The Marvel Sliding Time-Scale is unlikely to ever permit as much as 8 months between House of M and Civil War.
And the Hulk has enough of a history of rampaging to justify a constant "Something Must Be Done To Stop Hulk" policy, rather than a "Where do let a 3000lbs gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants" policy of appeasement that never works with any lasting effect anyway.
> > > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn't in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne's excreable run.
> > Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
I remain uncomfortable with writing off that many comics as all being an extended dream sequence. Maybe if they'd had the decency to have the "back to reality" moment being the Leader walk out of the shower to prove he wasn't dead, or something?
> > Even if it doesn't, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you'd support launching him into space, every one of you.
> Before or after you launched yourself?
Well, while we're stuck here, may as well try to make the best of it?
> Or are you suggesting that you'd launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he'd stamp it down to Earth?
That's actually a marvellously insane plan I'd love to see some genocidal nut try, but I'd pass on it myself, since it depends far too much on the Hulk doing exactly what you want him to do, which is usually unlikely at the best of times.
> > > 2) It's the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that's before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn't have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
> > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
> I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.
As I'll tell the "ambassador from Latveria" (does this make him Dreadknight/Kristoff Vernard/Andro the Doomsman?), even when the Hulk has access to the full extent of Banner's scientific genius, that genius does not include any level of training in piloting alien spacecraft, least of all alien spacecraft designed for use by a not-even-sort-of-humanoid insect species. He'd need someone like Lobe writing him to make it happen.
> > If they'd actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.
> Actually, the A-Wave wasn't restricting themselves to habitated planets. They were pretty much slashing and burning until Nova's United Front finally managed to baulk them 200-odd days after A-Day.
Your own argument misses out the point that they would probably have just destroyed the planet from orbit with one of their various superweapons, as likely as even set foot on it in the first place. If Annihilus has any level of awareness of who the Hulk is, he'd more than likely have gone for the "we've got to kill the planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." option.
> > > 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That's what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there's the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.
> > As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.
> Was the Hulk to blame? Certainly. But the whole chain of events must be taken into consideration, and the kickoff was the Illuminators' meeting. And it's not as if Namor of all people didn't see it coming even then.
Namor was always the dissenting voice of the Illuminati who'd say everything was a bad idea. Consider him just being consistent here, although I can't call it a "stopped clock moment", since the Illuminati screwed up their attack on the Skrulls, and their visit to the Beyonder, too.
> And it's not as if they had the Best Plan Ever when it came - at the very least, Tony could have led the Hulk AWAY from all the buildings rather than demolishing Avengers Tower.
Hulk smacked him into the Avengers Tower, and he never had much chance to get away after that, did he? Besides, Tony's whole plan hinged on his nano-weapon, which should've worked, if Hydra hadn't sabotaged it.
> > > And after that, THEY STILL AREN'T RID OF THE HULK, as I'm sure you've seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe's Hulk #4.
> > Well, at this point, that's the military's stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?
> Could they have known Rulk would come along? Probably not.
Well, who in their right mind would have?
And you coin "Tension-Sheet Hulk" yourself, then drop it for something so much less fun as "Rulk"?
> Could they have known the Hulk Would Return? Yes. I refer you again to the example of the Maestro, who eventually regenerated *from a frakking skeleton*.
Is anyone besides Hulk even aware Maestro did this, though?
Still, this is why you put him down when he's Banner, not when he's Hulk. The chance was there for the military, even if the superhero community generally don't go in for executing defeated foes right there and then. Punisher or Early Cable would've done it.
> > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > >
> > > a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules' word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
> > It's pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.
> The same way they should have worked up a time-stasis booth for The Witch?
When you say "time-stasis booth", I'm choosing to read "mercy killing", given how in Genosha, her power was still doing stuff while she was unconscious.
> Or how Teh Tony should have run to Forge and asked him to update his Skrull detector before Bishop shot him in the back?
Clearly, the X-books and Avengers books aren't running in synch, and Forge got shot before Tony learned of the Skrulls.
> Or how they should have ripped Wasp's voicebox out years back for the good of all concerned?
So it's less "why did Hank hit Wasp?", and more "Why'd it take him so long?" The man must have the patience of a Saint.
> > > b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).
> > Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I'd been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.
> > Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he'll hate who/what you hate, and he'll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.
> Why? He wouldn't have my memories, or my experiences.
Via real-world science, no. Via comic-science, he more than likely would have all of them (although for his sake, we won't give him the memories of what you did last summer), and be artificially aged to the same age as you.
> > > I mean, let's for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
> > Actually, she really should've done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It'd have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.
> Rogue would have gone "But sugah, Gambie wouldn't do such a thing! It must be ah impersoatoh."
> Mystique's mistake was not videoing it. And then forcing Rogue to watch it with her eyes glued open until she felt nothing but hate for Gambit.
That, or just dressing up as Gambit and having the sex right in front of Rogue. Possibly even involving someone else.
> > And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn't know/care/be aware that he's been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he's a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.
> Ever tried to photocopy a photocopy of a photocopy? It doesn't look much like the original by that point, which would be the problem with mass-scale cloning-as-reproduction. It's the ultimate in inbreeding.
Which is why you prevent that via composite-cloning from various DNA sources. Such as using the DNA of history's greatest leaders to create an Emperor of the World.
> > > c) We've been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn't at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.
> > The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they're just going out of their way to make him look like crap.
> > > Secondly, if it hadn't been for Stark, it wouldn't have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.
> > Yes, but it's not like Richard and Pym would've been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they 'failed' to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.
> "At least a third of the blame" != "all the blame"
I reiterate that one does not "blame" anyone for a Cyborg Thor Clone. One THANKS them for creating Awesome.
> > > Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.
> > Their brief team-up in 'Ragnarok' aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in 'Standoff', remember? Stark's anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?
> [Jetstorm] Say what? [/Jetstorm]
If only there were some resource on this Internets whereby I might prove it happened.
> *draws your attention to their interaction in Ragnarok, which wasn't the actions of people who are working together only because they have no choice.
You missed the pages where they kept flipping each other off?
> Plus, they teamed up in Amazing Spider-Man #498-500 (v2 #57-59) after Thor was merged back together but before Ragnarok.*
...whuh? I remember Spidey spending #500 on some time-travel thingy.
> > Thor's all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.
> Thor seemed more ticked about hero vs. hero than any possibility of that.
Well, given that he's never had a problem with "hero vs criminal" before, nothing much should change for him.