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Post By
seeker

In Reply To
Century: Your Alien Hero Supports Cloning

Subj: Re: I know Standoff happened, but nobody else remembers it.
Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 08:35:17 pm CST
Reply Subj: I know Standoff happened, but nobody else remembers it.
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 02:18:44 am CST

Previous Post

> > > Now to Century: From the point of view of the one planet, yes you're correct. But from the point of view of an entire inhabited galaxy, what they did was completely wrong! If something like the Hulk landed on my planet in an extraterrestial spaceship, I'd be really pissed of at the "brilliant minds" that so recklessly and carelessly put him on that ship in the first place. The fact that they had intended for him to be on another planet would be a poor excuse, since they had so carelessly bragged about their accomplishment to the one they had exiled.
> >
> > Given that they were sending Hulk to a world uninhabited by any sentient life at all, there wouldn't have been anyone there to care.
>
> But he didn't make it to that uninhabited planet.

But would've, if not for a rift in space that no-one could've forseen.

> And it could just as easily have been a planet without the means or resources to handle an angry Hulk.

If things had gone to plan, no, it would've been the world they specifically selected to offer him the peaceful existence he's always said he wants, with no sentient life.

> The illuminati doesn't get of the hook for this.

So because it went wrong (and did so due to something as unforeseeable as a rift in space), it should never have been attempted?

> > Telling him what they'd done, was still stupid, though.
> >
> > > > Admitting what they'd done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there'd be no way back home for him.
> > >
> > > to Century again: No way back to earth, yeah pretty unlikely. No way to some other planet which in all probablility would be helpless against this force of nature they (the Illuminati Four) released on the universe? That's was a lot more likely to occur, especially given what they knew about the Hulk. The Hulk may have deserved exile, but there's a universe of planet inhabitants out there in the MU that probably didn't deserve the Hulk to be exiled on theirs.
> > >
> > > BTW, the thing about the illuminati admitting to the Hulk what they did brings up an issue for another post sometime. Tony Stark in particular seems to have a compulsion to be able to say to everyone: "I'm better than you.!" and saying that even when good common sense would dictate doing otherwise.
> >
> > Well, he IS smarter than us, which makes him better. If other people can't handle their inferiority, that's their problem, not his.
>
> You really mean that being smarter makes him better? Because that sounds incredibly ableist. Do you think that the mentally handicapped are inferior? I haven't been one to say "Tony Stark is evil" but if he has that attitude, then I'm changing my opinion of him right now! He needs to be taken down!

I'm not saying that he himself has said this, so much as he DOES always end up being right, because he's a supergenius. Tony makes snap-decisions that he's too stubborn to ever reconsider, and he does things like faking his death that may hurt those who are close to him, but he does so in the complete certainty that When It All Works Out For The Best, Everyone Will Thank Him.

And given the plethora of knuckledragging meatheads in the superhuman community, deferring to the geniuses isn't a bad idea.

> > > > > And the indvidual members have caused numerous things on there own. Stark created weather satilites that were later used by Ultron to cause damages.
> > > >
> > > > So Stark should give up his job of inventing things in case Ultron should ever steal them?
> > >
> > > Maybe Stark should tell people that he's working on a way to control the worlds weather, in case anybody has an issue with it.
> >
> > This week's issue of The Order apparently reveals that people DID know about it, and it's just his Avengers team who are pig-ignorant and don't follow the news because they're too busy getting crap costumes and/or breast-implants.
>
> LOL!! Ok, I agree that the Avengers are usually composed of shallow people. That's an issue for another post, and I'm working on that list now.

I'm not sure it's the Avengers in general, so much as most of that lineup in particular, who largely seem to have been chosen so that Cho could draw T&A, and lots of it.

> But I haven't read The Order. Where does Stark inform the world about what he's doing?

I haven't read the issue yet, but members of The Order, including their leader, Anthem, are shown to know about it, and while he and Tony are shown to be old friends, they've hardly spent that much time around each other since he joined The Order that he'd be part of Tony's "super-secret inner circle who know all of his secret projects". It's more believable that "Stark experiments with weather control satellites" made it into the news, but wouldn't have made headline news until the things were up, running and working. Which Ultron did, if not in the way anyone planned.

> > > And in a world anything like our own, many people would. I'll elaborate more on this in another post if anyone's interested.
> >
> > Many people would, but in a world that surely suffers from famines/hurricanes/ice-ages, etc as much as ours does, those people deserve to be ignored if technology can do something to change it.
>
> And the trouble with controlling the weather is you can't get something for nothing. If you make it rain to relieve famine in one area of the world, you decrease the mostiure in the atmosphere, meaning famines in another area of the world will be more likely.

In other words, because it might not work, they should never try? Especially in the context of Marvel super-science, where it doesn't have to obey actual real-world natural laws of how weather works, it's not impossible that they COULD make this work for the betterment of the entire world.

> > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > >
> > > Irrevelant to the debate.
> >
> > With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
> He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.

Cloning is beyond any such limited notions of "right" and "wrong", it is a necessary development in human evolution.

> > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > >
> > > Unless he had Thor's expressed permission to clone him, it was WRONG!
> >
> > Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
> Wait a minute, isn't Strife a villain?

That stops him being "brave"...how?

> And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.

And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.

> If he (Parker) had given permission, he would be as responsible as the Jackal for Kaine and all the clones that went wrong and went on killing people. Peter is innocent however because basically he was raped.

Being cloned does not = being raped, largely since at no point did Miles Warren forcibly have the sex with Peter. As for Kaine, nobody, not the Jackal, not Peter, not society, told him to be a killer, he chose that life. Kaine is to blame for Kaine's crimes.

> Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.

No, Tony, Reed and Hank have at no point raped Thor. Yet strangely he seems angrier with Tony than with Moondragon, who actually HAS raped him.

> > > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> >
> > Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
> But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!

I'd say "bring it!", but the world needs to concentrate on cloning people of significance/importance/historical-relevance before it starts cloning some guy I met online.

But once you're dead, you're fair game for cloning.

> > > And if Tony thought that Thor wouldn't mind, why did he keep secret the fact that he held onto a sample of his DNA?
> >
> > I hold to my belief that "in the event of your death, we reserve the right to replace you with a clone" is in all the Avengers' contracts, and most of them just never read the small print.
>
> You better prove it before you claim that. ;\-\)

Can you DISPROVE it? Or at least say "Tony wouldn't do that"?

> > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > No, Thor blamed Stark for something Reed and Hank AND Stark did!
> >
> > No, Stark just told them to do it. Their science made it happen, and they did it without refusal/objection/problem.
> >
> > > He will probably blame Reed and Hank just as much when he sees them. But since he considered Tony a closer friend, he ought to be angrier with him than the other two.
> >
> > Wow, we all HAVE forgotten Standoff, and how it already sundered the Stark/Thor friendship forevermore, haven't we?
>
> Are you refering to issue #4 of the New Thor? If so, I haven't forgotten. Tony Stark was the only one who went to meet Thor, so anything between Thor and Reed Richards and Thor and Hank Pym is not revelent.

Standoff? Thor/Iron Man/Avengers Crossover in 2003? All 3 issues drawn by Alan Davis? Had Doctor Doom in it? They made a Marvel Legends figure of Tony's Anti-Thor Armor from it? Broke the Tony/Thor friendship FOREVERMORE? Anyone? I know I didn't dream it.


>
> And given the plethora of knuckledragging meatheads in the superhuman community, deferring to the geniuses isn't a bad idea.
>
So those knuckledragging meatheads should defer to the likes of Dr. Doom an the Mad Thinker simply because they are geniuses?



>
> > >
> > > With regards to "he might object", it really is relevant, in that he can't object.
> > He didn't have the chance. Meaning it was wrong to do it.
>
> Cloning is beyond any such limited notions of "right" and "wrong", it is a necessary development in human evolution.
>
It is not beyond right and wrong. Few things if any thing are. So, you are saying a person can use cloning to test viruses to serve as biological weapons to wipe you millions of people merely because they are different? Would that not be wrong?


> > >
> > > Science says that's not true. Cloning is both right and necessary, and doesn't need permission. If cloning required things like "permission", brave men like Ben Reilly and Stryfe would never have lived.
> >
So, without asking your permission I can clone you, use that clone to murder, destroy your reputation, and you would have no problems with it because it is my right and necessity? Thanks
>
>
> > And as far as Ben Reilly goes, he knew that Peter Parker would never have given permission if it had been asked.
>
> And if you were to ask Peter now, he'd be glad he had his 'brother', even for the short time he knew him. You'd think the notion that one day we could all have a brother like Ben Reilly would be enough to make us all pro-cloning.
>
Parker was lucky that Riley turned good. The problems with cloning were highlighted with Kaine when Parker's life was nearly destroyed because the Jackal decided to clone Parker. The Jackal destroyed multiple lives, but according to you nothing the Jackal did was wrong. Am I understanding you correctly?



>
> > Just as Thor was by Tony Stark and Co.
>
> No, Tony, Reed and Hank have at no point raped Thor. Yet strangely he seems angrier with Tony than with Moondragon, who actually HAS raped him.
>
The violated Thor's trust and abused their friendship and framed Thor for the death of Bill Foster. It is true the act is different than rape, but it is still a great breach of trust.

> > > > If I rob you, do I get to say it's OK because you never told me that you didn't want to be robbed?
> > >
> > > Cloning and robbing are two completely different things! Robbing takes from you, cloning GIVES! Another you, a brother born of science!
> > But it should be my choice as to if I want the gift. If you ever clone me, I will see you procecuted to the full extent of the law!
>
Yes, cloning Thor gave Thor an incentive and justification to beat the crap out of Stark.

And no, the two things are not always different. Stark had no right to clone Thor and turn that clone into his own private weapon. He stole from Thor not only his look, but his reputation. Stark himself hates it when people do that. Why should Thor be any different?

> I'd say "bring it!", but the world needs to concentrate on cloning people of significance/importance/historical-relevance before it starts cloning some guy I met online.
>
> But once you're dead, you're fair game for cloning.
>
One, some guy online might be a person of significance. Two, once you are dead you are not fair game. Most people do not want to be remembered as monsters, but according to you if I clone you and turn that being into a monster it is okay.