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Post By
Century: Your Alien Hero

In Reply To
Omar Karindu, Latverian Ambassador

Subj: Space Hulk
Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 05:17:26 am EST (Viewed 3 times)
Reply Subj: Re: As The Sky Falling On Our Heads
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:33:41 pm EST (Viewed 4 times)

Previous Post

> > > > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn’t land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn’t really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he’d ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let’s face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we’d pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Admitting what they’d done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there’d be no way back home for him.
> > > > >
> > > > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> > > >
> > > > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
> > >
> > > He’d apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.
> >
> > What have we learned about paying attention to time-scales that comics actually give us. The Marvel Sliding Time-Scale is unlikely to ever permit as much as 8 months between House of M and Civil War.
> >
> > And the Hulk has enough of a history of rampaging to justify a constant "Something Must Be Done To Stop Hulk" policy, rather than a "Where do let a 3000lbs gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants" policy of appeasement that never works with any lasting effect anyway.
>
> So stick him in a stasis booth with "Do Not Open Until 3000000 AD" written on it somewhere you can keep an eye on it for as long as you live?

Or the idea I once floated, rigging a gamma-sensitive temporal cell that keeps him "locked" as Bruce Banner, but a Bruce capable of talking. Why would Tony waste resources like Banner?

> > > > > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn’t in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne’s excreable run.
> > > >
> > > > Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
> > >
> > > Nightmare.
> >
> > I remain uncomfortable with writing off that many comics as all being an extended dream sequence. Maybe if they’d had the decency to have the "back to reality" moment being the Leader walk out of the shower to prove he wasn’t dead, or something?
>
> Funnily enough, didn't Nightmare impersonate Mephisto in the story in question...?

Among others, yes. Mephisto sure gets impersonated a lot, especially if you factor in Chiantang from Priest's Black Panther run.

> > > > Even if it doesn’t, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you’d support launching him into space, every one of you.
> > >
> > > Before or after you launched yourself?
> >
> > Well, while we’re stuck here, may as well try to make the best of it?
>
> And I maintain you wouldn't trust the man who publically admitted to, among other things, breaking the Vault's first line of defence against a superhuman breakout in a hissy fit....

As I argued back when CW ended, would anyone in their right mind give power over SHRA enforcement to an alcoholic with a history of relapse who'd previously initiated the Armor Wars, opportunistically mindwiped the world, faked his own death twice for personal gain, has a powerful and exotic nanotech system that can control all technology in his body, and has had at least two major crises of conscience that led him to buck the government?

> > > Or are you suggesting that you’d launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he’d stamp it down to Earth?
> >
> > That’s actually a marvellously insane plan I’d love to see some genocidal nut try, but I’d pass on it myself, since it depends far too much on the Hulk doing exactly what you want him to do, which is usually unlikely at the best of times.
>
> Just do what the Avengers did to get him to hit that One Safe Spot way back when...

Living Rock, why have you forsaken us?

> > > > > 2) It’s the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that’s before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn’t have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
> > > >
> > > > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
> > >
> > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.
> >
> > As I’ll tell the "ambassador from Latveria" (does this make him Dreadknight/Kristoff Vernard/Andro the Doomsman?), even when the Hulk has access to the full extent of Banner’s scientific genius, that genius does not include any level of training in piloting alien spacecraft, least of all alien spacecraft designed for use by a not-even-sort-of-humanoid insect species. He’d need someone like Lobe writing him to make it happen.
>
> And Ambassador Karindu answers it for me again.

InDEED.

> Besides, if %^&*ing DRAX could do it, how hard could it be?

For that matter, if ANNIHILUS can do it...

> > > > If they’d actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.
> > >
> > > Actually, the A-Wave wasn’t restricting themselves to habitated planets. They were pretty much slashing and burning until Nova’s United Front finally managed to baulk them 200-odd days after A-Day.
> >
> > Your own argument misses out the point that they would probably have just destroyed the planet from orbit with one of their various superweapons, as likely as even set foot on it in the first place. If Annihilus has any level of awareness of who the Hulk is, he’d more than likely have gone for the "we’ve got to kill the planet from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure." option.
>
> Actually, I don't think they nuked anything from orbit as a rule, did they? They just flooded the places with more "ground" troops than had ever been seen before, like to Glorian's planet in Annihilation: Ronan, with "from orbit" as a backup plan.

Right; the shtick was "monstrous horde," not "technologically superior foe."

> > > > > 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That’s what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there’s the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.
> > > >
> > > > As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.
> > >
> > > Was the Hulk to blame? Certainly. But the whole chain of events must be taken into consideration, and the kickoff was the Illuminators’ meeting. And it’s not as if Namor of all people didn’t see it coming even then.
> >
> > Namor was always the dissenting voice of the Illuminati who’d say everything was a bad idea. Consider him just being consistent here, although I can’t call it a "stopped clock moment", since the Illuminati screwed up their attack on the Skrulls, and their visit to the Beyonder, too.
>
> Yes, do they have a record of getting ANYTHING right? The Noh-Varr issue was set before CW: Young Avengers/Runaways too, which ended with "Welcome to the capital of the New Kree Empire".

More to the point, if they're supposed to have been there behind the scenes all along, we needed the mini to make them seem like they'd kept the crises from being worse. Instead, we got them mostly blundering through the aftermath. And in any case, at least three of the members -- Tony, Xavier, and Namor -- have enough skeletons in their closets to be post-Ultron Slorenia.

> > > And it’s not as if they had the Best Plan Ever when it came - at the very least, Tony could have led the Hulk AWAY from all the buildings rather than demolishing Avengers Tower.
> >
> > Hulk smacked him into the Avengers Tower, and he never had much chance to get away after that, did he? Besides, Tony’s whole plan hinged on his nano-weapon, which should’ve worked, if Hydra hadn’t sabotaged it.
>
> See, that's the thing - always have a plan B. And C, and D.
>
> Tony didn't. Tony got smashed.

And again, have any of Tony's (or anyone's) anti-Hulk plans ever worked out? Even his celebrated "defeat" of the big green guy back in the 80s was on the heels of a failed Stark-sponsored cure attempt and Tony almost died in his own coffin-like armor.

The best way to deal with the Hulk, honestly, seems to be to try and appeal to him and to otherwise not meddle with him. The Illuminati would have been much better off trying to stop the government from making gamma devices, watching for the Leader and the others who've caused Hulk rampages for their own purposes, and trying to find somewhere to isolate the Hulk where they could keep an eye on him. Exile him and he just comes back, often worse than ever; we've seen that too many times for Stark not to know it.

> > > > > And after that, THEY STILL AREN’T RID OF THE HULK, as I’m sure you’ve seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe’s Hulk #4.
> > > >
> > > > Well, at this point, that’s the military’s stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?
> > >
> > > Could they have known Rulk would come along? Probably not.
> >
> > Well, who in their right mind would have?
>
> Who in their right mind would write it?

Teh Lobe is in his right mind, it's just that his comics of late are indulgent, shallow tripe.

> > And you coin "Tension-Sheet Hulk" yourself, then drop it for something so much less fun as "Rulk"?
>
> Basically? I know I coined it, and YOU know I coined it. But without you saying that, everyone here would think I was copying you [until you said that], since it sounds like something you would coin \:\)
>
> Now, I’ll go back to "Tension-Sheet Hulk" \:\)

Good.

> > > Could they have known the Hulk Would Return? Yes. I refer you again to the example of the Maestro, who eventually regenerated *from a frakking skeleton*.
> >
> > Is anyone besides Hulk even aware Maestro did this, though?
> >
> > Still, this is why you put him down when he’s Banner, not when he’s Hulk. The chance was there for the military, even if the superhero community generally don’t go in for executing defeated foes right there and then. Punisher or Early Cable would’ve done it.
>
> No, Cable would have told Shatterstar to do it, ja?

Though it should be recalled that "Banner is dying" actually seems to trigger the transformation most of the time. Depending on how you read things like Hulk: The End, killing Banner might just give you a Bannerless Hulk once the regeneration kicked in.

> > > > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > > >
> > > > > a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules’ word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
> > > >
> > > > It’s pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.
> > >
> > > The same way they should have worked up a time-stasis booth for The Witch?
> >
> > When you say "time-stasis booth", I’m choosing to read "mercy killing", given how in Genosha, her power was still doing stuff while she was unconscious.
>
> Well, Hawkeye killed her and it didn't stick. I'm figuring freezing her in time would probably be more reliable than an actual attempt-to-kill-her.

Yep.

> > > Or how Teh Tony should have run to Forge and asked him to update his Skrull detector before Bishop shot him in the back?
> >
> > Clearly, the X-books and Avengers books aren’t running in synch, and Forge got shot before Tony learned of the Skrulls.
>
> Nope - that Illumanati miniseries again. Xavier's fine in #5, when Tony tells the group about that, whereas Legacy's a quest for him to get his brains back.

This is probably so by the chronology.

> > > Or how they should have ripped Wasp’s voicebox out years back for the good of all concerned?
> >
> > So it’s less "why did Hank hit Wasp?", and more "Why’d it take him so long?" The man must have the patience of a Saint.
>
> I'm not going to touch that one, since I'll get into trouble whatever answer I give \:\)

In fairness, the Wasp Hank hit had long since become a worthwhile superhero. It's not her fault that a writer with an agenda for the Vision decided all his characters would share that agenda too.

> > > > > b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).
> > > >
> > > > Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I’d been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.
> > > >
> > > > Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he’ll hate who/what you hate, and he’ll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.
> > >
> > > Why? He wouldn’t have my memories, or my experiences.
> >
> > Via real-world science, no. Via comic-science, he more than likely would have all of them (although for his sake, we won’t give him the memories of what you did last summer), and be artificially aged to the same age as you.
>
> We've seen both in comic-science.

Yep. Jackal-clones seem to get memories via the dodgy means of "RNA injections," while other clones like HE's Thor copy Nobilus don't seem to have that trick down.

> > > > > I mean, let’s for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, she really should’ve done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It’d have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.
> > >
> > > Rogue would have gone "But sugah, Gambie wouldn’t do such a thing! It must be ah impersoatoh."
> > >
> > > Mystique’s mistake was not videoing it. And then forcing Rogue to watch it with her eyes glued open until she felt nothing but hate for Gambit.
> >
> > That, or just dressing up as Gambit and having the sex right in front of Rogue. Possibly even involving someone else.
>
> Again, it's one of these things - when Mystique is clearly being had sex with Gambit by (Work THAT one out! ;\) ), she can't be him and Rogue's suspicions go to Gambit. If Mystique's involved and the woman isn't Mystique, well...

It's not as if it'd be hard for Mystique to arrange for someone else to sleep woth Gambit and then show Rogue. "See, it can't be me, coz I'm right here! DTMFA!"

> > > > And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn’t know/care/be aware that he’s been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he’s a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.
> > >
> > > Ever tried to photocopy a photocopy of a photocopy? It doesn’t look much like the original by that point, which would be the problem with mass-scale cloning-as-reproduction. It’s the ultimate in inbreeding.
> >
> > Which is why you prevent that via composite-cloning from various DNA sources.
>
> That's... not really "cloning".
>
> And you're endorsing Johns' Stupid Superboy Retcons now?

Eh, I actually didn't mind that one all told.

> > Such as using the DNA of history’s greatest leaders to create an Emperor of the World.
>
> A guy who wears the goofiest snake costume known to existence?

Goofier than Cottonmouth of the Serpent Society?

> > > > > c) We’ve been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn’t at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.
> > > >
> > > > The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they’re just going out of their way to make him look like crap.
> > > >
> > > > > Secondly, if it hadn’t been for Stark, it wouldn’t have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, but it’s not like Richard and Pym would’ve been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they ’failed’ to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.
> > >
> > > "At least a third of the blame" != "all the blame"
> >
> > I reiterate that one does not "blame" anyone for a Cyborg Thor Clone. One THANKS them for creating Awesome.
>
> Even if the "One" has a surname of Foster?

That was possibly the dumbest moment in Civil War, really, sacrificing Marvel's only halfway respectable size-changer in the name of false "balance."

> > > > > Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.
> > > >
> > > > Their brief team-up in ’Ragnarok’ aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in ’Standoff’, remember? Stark’s anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?
> > >
> > > [Jetstorm] Say what? [/Jetstorm]
> >
> > If only there were some resource on this Internets whereby I might prove it happened.
>
> Prove what happened?

Things have happened at some point?

> > > *draws your attention to their interaction in Ragnarok, which wasn’t the actions of people who are working together only because they have no choice.
> >
> > You missed the pages where they kept flipping each other off?
>
> They seem to be missing from my copy of #81 somehow...

Ditto. It's not as if Marvel will ever really permanently break up the Big Three. The Avengers always eventually needs them back for a Big Iconic Moment.

> > > Plus, they teamed up in Amazing Spider-Man #498-500 (v2 #57-59) after Thor was merged back together but before Ragnarok.*
> >
> > ...whuh? I remember Spidey spending #500 on some time-travel thingy.
>
> He did. Before that, and after the reset-button got hit.

Yep.

> > > > Thor’s all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.
> > >
> > > Thor seemed more ticked about hero vs. hero than any possibility of that.
> >
> > Well, given that he’s never had a problem with "hero vs criminal" before, nothing much should change for him.
>
> Thor's never been that interested in "The Law" - why do you think Odin kept depowering him?! And I don't think he's ever considered Cap a criminal.

Odin kept depowering him for no paying attention to dotty old Odin, and because Loki is usually smarter than both of them together.

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> > > > > > > > Also the hulk decision backfired on them(except xavier) when the hulk came back mader and stronger then before with new allies and smarter and the combined war devestated new york.(I know they didn’t land him on the planet or blew the ship up killing his wife but they had to know he would be back and he would be angry for screwing him and the tape of them admditing it was stupid.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, for them (as opposed to for us readers), it wasn’t really predictible/inevitable/probably, or even plausible, that he’d ever be able to return from where they were intending to send him. And let’s face it, if Hulk lived on your planet, we’d pretty much all be in support of launching him into space.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Admitting what they’d done to him was a bad move, born of their absolute belief there’d be no way back home for him.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the record on the matter:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) At the time they launched him into space, Hulk was living peacefully in Alaska.
> > > > >
> > > > > But you, me, and everyone else, all know that never lasts.
> > > >
> > > > He’d apparently been in Alaska for eight months, per Hulk #88. He lasted about three before Sakaar get blowed up real good.
> > >
> > > What have we learned about paying attention to time-scales that comics actually give us. The Marvel Sliding Time-Scale is unlikely to ever permit as much as 8 months between House of M and Civil War.
> > >
> > > And the Hulk has enough of a history of rampaging to justify a constant "Something Must Be Done To Stop Hulk" policy, rather than a "Where do let a 3000lbs gorilla sit? Anywhere he wants" policy of appeasement that never works with any lasting effect anyway.
> >
> > So stick him in a stasis booth with "Do Not Open Until 3000000 AD" written on it somewhere you can keep an eye on it for as long as you live?
>
> Or the idea I once floated, rigging a gamma-sensitive temporal cell that keeps him "locked" as Bruce Banner, but a Bruce capable of talking. Why would Tony waste resources like Banner?

Because it NEVER LASTS, and there's years of history proving that you can't control/contain/appease Hulk with any kind of long-term reliability. Given the difficulty (and ethical questions) of flat-out killing him, there's a decent argument to be made for a serious effort to rid the planet of him in a way that makes it very difficult for him to ever return.

(Even looking at it as readers, not from an in-comic perspective, 'Tales of Hulk in Space' can sustain a comic better than 'Tales of Hulk in Stasis')

> > > > > > Other than the time he was driven mad by a Gamma Bomb *he was trying to defuse for the US Government* and thus can plead that he literally wasn’t in control of his actions, when was the last time he actually caused major property damage? The last time I can think of was back in Byrne’s excreable run.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does the BJ-Hulk still count?
> > > >
> > > > Nightmare.
> > >
> > > I remain uncomfortable with writing off that many comics as all being an extended dream sequence. Maybe if they’d had the decency to have the "back to reality" moment being the Leader walk out of the shower to prove he wasn’t dead, or something?
> >
> > Funnily enough, didn't Nightmare impersonate Mephisto in the story in question...?
>
> Among others, yes. Mephisto sure gets impersonated a lot, especially if you factor in Chiantang from Priest's Black Panther run.

Well, there's an easy out for someone to use, when Marvel comes to their senses. Not that "The Devil doesn't play fair" isn't right there already.

> > > > > Even if it doesn’t, I reiterate: If you lived on the same planet as the Hulk, chances are you’d support launching him into space, every one of you.
> > > >
> > > > Before or after you launched yourself?
> > >
> > > Well, while we’re stuck here, may as well try to make the best of it?
> >
> > And I maintain you wouldn't trust the man who publically admitted to, among other things, breaking the Vault's first line of defence against a superhuman breakout in a hissy fit....
>
> As I argued back when CW ended, would anyone in their right mind give power over SHRA enforcement to an alcoholic with a history of relapse who'd previously initiated the Armor Wars, opportunistically mindwiped the world, faked his own death twice for personal gain, has a powerful and exotic nanotech system that can control all technology in his body, and has had at least two major crises of conscience that led him to buck the government?

Well, who else is going to step up and do it? Your alternative is probably Gyrich.

> > > > Or are you suggesting that you’d launch the Hulk into the Moon and trusting that he’d stamp it down to Earth?
> > >
> > > That’s actually a marvellously insane plan I’d love to see some genocidal nut try, but I’d pass on it myself, since it depends far too much on the Hulk doing exactly what you want him to do, which is usually unlikely at the best of times.
> >
> > Just do what the Avengers did to get him to hit that One Safe Spot way back when...
>
> Living Rock, why have you forsaken us?

OK, I suppose it's possible, if not plausible. And may require a Wasp/Pym sacrifice to make it work, so it's all good.

> > > > > > 2) It’s the MU. They have access to the record we as readers have access to. Strange booted the Hulk off-Earth and into wacky dimensions. Alpha Flight brought him back. He was apparently vapourised by a gamma bomb. He came back in Vegas. He had a nuke dropped on him while fighting Thor. He came back. (Oh, and Maestro was stripped down to the bones. He came back.). And that’s before we consider all the NON-Hulk improbable coinkydinks that brought people implausibly back from the dead or exile - hell, Hulk just happened to bump into the Silver Surfer of all people on Sakaar. What are the odds of THAT? Which brings up the point that, considering how close the Annihilation Wave came to Earth while the Hulk was over the other side of the universe, the Bugs could well have hit the planet he was meant to land on. What odds Hulk wouldn’t have pulled a Drax and pointed an A-Wave ship, not at Thanos, but at Earth?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, come on, what are the odds that the Hulk could pilot a spacecraft? Seriously.
> > > >
> > > > I refer the Rt. Hon. Gentleman to the answer the ambassador from Latveria gave some moments ago.
> > >
> > > As I’ll tell the "ambassador from Latveria" (does this make him Dreadknight/Kristoff Vernard/Andro the Doomsman?), even when the Hulk has access to the full extent of Banner’s scientific genius, that genius does not include any level of training in piloting alien spacecraft, least of all alien spacecraft designed for use by a not-even-sort-of-humanoid insect species. He’d need someone like Lobe writing him to make it happen.
> >
> > And Ambassador Karindu answers it for me again.
>
> InDEED.
>
> > Besides, if %^&*ing DRAX could do it, how hard could it be?

But the bug-crew were literally plugged into their ships to control them. Drax took control of one of their ships but slicing off a Queen's skull and inserting cables and wires into her brain to fly the thing. Can you see ANY version of Hulk going there, or even thinking to?

> For that matter, if ANNIHILUS can do it...

Bah, they're his ships, of course he can fly them.

> > > > > If they’d actually managed to land him on some uninhabited-by-sentient-life world of no interest to any of the alien empires, the chances of him actually getting off-world, let alone coming back, would be very remote, enough so to justify being rid of him.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, the A-Wave wasn’t restricting themselves to habitated planets. They were pretty much slashing and burning until Nova’s United Front finally managed to baulk them 200-odd days after A-Day.
> > >
> > > Your own argument misses out the point that they would probably have just destroyed the planet from orbit with one of their various superweapons, as likely as even set foot on it in the first place. If Annihilus has any level of awareness of who the Hulk is, he’d more than likely have gone for the "we’ve got to kill the planet from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure." option.
> >
> > Actually, I don't think they nuked anything from orbit as a rule, did they? They just flooded the places with more "ground" troops than had ever been seen before, like to Glorian's planet in Annihilation: Ronan, with "from orbit" as a backup plan.

> Right; the shtick was "monstrous horde," not "technologically superior foe."

While that was the tactic used for the Galactus Gun, the other planet-killing weapon, the Harvester of Sorrows, was more being used just to roll up on planets they didn't want, and kill them.

> > > > > > 3) $164,000,000,000.00 (±3%) [One hundred and sixty-four BILLION dollars]. That’s what WWH is going to cost the MU US Gov in NYC reconstruction costs ALONE, per WWHAS:Damage Control #1. Then there’s the cost of the evacuation, suing for lost business, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > As one of the other responses noted, the Hulk is to blame for taking his anger out on the whole city, rather than just the four men responsible for exiling him. He can share the bill with the Sentry, who probably poops gold or something anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Was the Hulk to blame? Certainly. But the whole chain of events must be taken into consideration, and the kickoff was the Illuminators’ meeting. And it’s not as if Namor of all people didn’t see it coming even then.
> > >
> > > Namor was always the dissenting voice of the Illuminati who’d say everything was a bad idea. Consider him just being consistent here, although I can’t call it a "stopped clock moment", since the Illuminati screwed up their attack on the Skrulls, and their visit to the Beyonder, too.
> >
> > Yes, do they have a record of getting ANYTHING right? The Noh-Varr issue was set before CW: Young Avengers/Runaways too, which ended with "Welcome to the capital of the New Kree Empire".

Hasn't Bendis himself said that they weren't supposed to be very good at the whole secret cabal thing?

But what, neither of these comics could just cap Marvel Boy and be done with it?

> More to the point, if they're supposed to have been there behind the scenes all along, we needed the mini to make them seem like they'd kept the crises from being worse. Instead, we got them mostly blundering through the aftermath.

That's true. Although I'm not sure what possible-crisis one could insert them into as having prevented.

> And in any case, at least three of the members -- Tony, Xavier, and Namor -- have enough skeletons in their closets to be post-Ultron Slorenia.

Black Bolt also has the on/off bad treatment of the Alpha Primitives, his utter refusal to adequately deal with his crazy brother, and then there's that time a whole army of Inhumans defected to Apocalypse, and where'd they go, Black Bolt? Where'd they go?

> > > > And it’s not as if they had the Best Plan Ever when it came - at the very least, Tony could have led the Hulk AWAY from all the buildings rather than demolishing Avengers Tower.
> > >
> > > Hulk smacked him into the Avengers Tower, and he never had much chance to get away after that, did he? Besides, Tony’s whole plan hinged on his nano-weapon, which should’ve worked, if Hydra hadn’t sabotaged it.
> >
> > See, that's the thing - always have a plan B. And C, and D.
> >
> > Tony didn't. Tony got smashed.


Buh? Tony had Plan B "Get the Sentry to beat the excrement out of the Hulk", which DID work, it just suffered from a 4-issue delay in happening. And he had a Plan C of "Drop the entire island into the Negative Zone".

> And again, have any of Tony's (or anyone's) anti-Hulk plans ever worked out? Even his celebrated "defeat" of the big green guy back in the 80s was on the heels of a failed Stark-sponsored cure attempt and Tony almost died in his own coffin-like armor.

As with the Punisher, the Hulk is a character who is at best an anti-hero, but the needs of "he has his own monthly comic" will always mean that no attempt to deal with him will ever work out in the long-term. And that most superheroes will moronically decide to take him on in hand-to-hand combat, regardless of any other abilities they may have (see also: Superman vs Doomsday).

> The best way to deal with the Hulk, honestly, seems to be to try and appeal to him and to otherwise not meddle with him. The Illuminati would have been much better off trying to stop the government from making gamma devices, watching for the Leader and the others who've caused Hulk rampages for their own purposes, and trying to find somewhere to isolate the Hulk where they could keep an eye on him. Exile him and he just comes back, often worse than ever; we've seen that too many times for Stark not to know it.

But that's an appeasement policy, and appeasement of what is, essentially, a big angry monster that is still going to periodically go nuts and rampage through cities, no matter how nice you are to him. Not so long ago, Somebody gave a reasonable account of why it's worth trying to reason with someone like Magneto, who, behind the questionable tactics, at least has a rational agenda of protecting his people, that isn't wrong, and even if one does take him on and win, you just martyr him to his hardcore fanatic followers, some of whom are on a similar threat-level.

But the Hulk? Until WWH, he has no real followers, no cause, and if you CAN successfully deal with him, you don't have anyone else to worry about. Trying to appease Hulk is no saner than leaving sacrifices to the local dragon in the hope it will stop eating anyone else. Sooner or later, you've got to step up and try and rid yourself of it.

If Hulk really just wants to be left alone, he could easily enough find somewhere decently-uninhabited.

> > > > > > And after that, THEY STILL AREN’T RID OF THE HULK, as I’m sure you’ve seen from the solicit for Teh Lobe’s Hulk #4.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, at this point, that’s the military’s stupid, stupid fault for just not capping Banner right there while he was down. And how was anyone to know that There Will Always Be A Hulk, and the Anger Force would turn Ricky into Tension-Sheet Hulk? How COULD anyone have known?
> > > >
> > > > Could they have known Rulk would come along? Probably not.
> > >
> > > Well, who in their right mind would have?
> >
> > Who in their right mind would write it?

Didn't the guy behind the Hulk TV series actually fight Marvel over his desire to make Hulk red? It took Marvel showing him scientific evidence that gamma radiation is visibly green to stop him.

> Teh Lobe is in his right mind, it's just that his comics of late are indulgent, shallow tripe.

And nobody's editing him AT ALL.

> > > And you coin "Tension-Sheet Hulk" yourself, then drop it for something so much less fun as "Rulk"?
> >
> > Basically? I know I coined it, and YOU know I coined it. But without you saying that, everyone here would think I was copying you [until you said that], since it sounds like something you would coin \:\)
> >
> > Now, I’ll go back to "Tension-Sheet Hulk" \:\)
>
> Good.

I really should've just shut up and claimed credit for it?

But hopefully everyone who doesn't get it will research online and be educated.

> > > > Could they have known the Hulk Would Return? Yes. I refer you again to the example of the Maestro, who eventually regenerated *from a frakking skeleton*.
> > >
> > > Is anyone besides Hulk even aware Maestro did this, though?
> > >
> > > Still, this is why you put him down when he’s Banner, not when he’s Hulk. The chance was there for the military, even if the superhero community generally don’t go in for executing defeated foes right there and then. Punisher or Early Cable would’ve done it.
> >
> > No, Cable would have told Shatterstar to do it, ja?

That would've been even awesome-er. Looking back, Cable only seemed to personally kill Dumb Strong Guy Henchmen like Brute and Sumo. Shame he never fought Colossus or The Satan back then.

> Though it should be recalled that "Banner is dying" actually seems to trigger the transformation most of the time. Depending on how you read things like Hulk: The End, killing Banner might just give you a Bannerless Hulk once the regeneration kicked in.

Those things tend to involve situations in which Banner/Hulk can see it coming, though. The only in-present-day continuity one involved Banner trying to drown himself in a 1998 annual. In theory, if one managed a surprise killshot on Banner that he never saw coming (and, for good measure, didn't leave enough corpse intact), you'd circumvent the "Hulk won't let Banner die" rule.

> > > > > > > > Reed and Stark and Pym created clor and it went screwy and killed golaith and also turned a powerful possible ally agianst stark in thor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, they have a death on their hands, and Hank is at least guilt-ridden over that. But as for Thor, who knew
> > > > > > > a) Thor would ever be back?
> > > > > > > b) Thor was anti-cloning?
> > > > > > > c) Thor would cretinously blame Stark for something Reed and Hank did?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a) See Hulk. Hell, they only had Hercules’ word Thor was dead in the first place, and he was drunk out his gourd at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > It’s pretty much a given that Strange would be able to verify this, or Reed would have some kind of dimension-crossing machine to do so.
> > > >
> > > > The same way they should have worked up a time-stasis booth for The Witch?
> > >
> > > When you say "time-stasis booth", I’m choosing to read "mercy killing", given how in Genosha, her power was still doing stuff while she was unconscious.
> >
> > Well, Hawkeye killed her and it didn't stick. I'm figuring freezing her in time would probably be more reliable than an actual attempt-to-kill-her.
>
> Yep.

Again, Hawkeye screwed up by shooting to wound, rather than sticking an explosive arrow in the back of her head. It reads a lot like he specifically wanted to confront her, be it to force her to set reality right (would that even have been possible with her dead?), or just to ask her "Why, dammit, why?", rather than just kill her, as much as he talked about doing so.

> > > > Or how Teh Tony should have run to Forge and asked him to update his Skrull detector before Bishop shot him in the back?
> > >
> > > Clearly, the X-books and Avengers books aren’t running in synch, and Forge got shot before Tony learned of the Skrulls.
> >
> > Nope - that Illumanati miniseries again. Xavier's fine in #5, when Tony tells the group about that, whereas Legacy's a quest for him to get his brains back.
>
> This is probably so by the chronology.

Either he's doing a good job of covering for lack of brains in #5, or, what with #5 presumably taking place AFTER the current MA issues, it also takes place so close before Messiah Complex that hunting the superbaby takes priority, and Xavier has little chance to react to the Skrull threat.

> > > > Or how they should have ripped Wasp’s voicebox out years back for the good of all concerned?
> > >
> > > So it’s less "why did Hank hit Wasp?", and more "Why’d it take him so long?" The man must have the patience of a Saint.
> >
> > If Hank had hit Wasp harder, Avengers Disassembled would never have happened.
>
> In fairness, the Wasp Hank hit had never become a worthwhile superhero. It's all her fault that a writer with an agenda for the Vision decided all his characters would share that agenda too, and she thus deserved to have been hit by Pym years earlier.

Yeah, Girl Ultron was all Wasp's fault, too.

> > > > > > b) I suggest that if someone made a clone of you, then that clone went out and murdered someone in public view, you might be a little ticked (see: Peter Parker being arrested and very nearly convicted over someone Kaine killed).
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, only if I had no alibi for my whereabouts because I’d been buried alive by an insane Russian in a loincloth.
> > > > >
> > > > > Otherwise, well, a murderous clone of you, he’ll hate who/what you hate, and he’ll act on it in the ways you secretly want to but never would.
> > > >
> > > > Why? He wouldn’t have my memories, or my experiences.
> > >
> > > Via real-world science, no. Via comic-science, he more than likely would have all of them (although for his sake, we won’t give him the memories of what you did last summer), and be artificially aged to the same age as you.
> >
> > We've seen both in comic-science.
>
> Yep. Jackal-clones seem to get memories via the dodgy means of "RNA injections," while other clones like HE's Thor copy Nobilus don't seem to have that trick down.

No wonder the High Evolutionary went around trying to disprove the Jackal's work. Petty jealousy.

> > > > > > I mean, let’s for a moment leave aside the whole morality of cloning and what have you - THEY DRESSED CLOR IN A THOR COSTUME, WAVING AROUND A COPY OF MJOLINR. If Mystique had "dressed" as Beast and gone around shooting people in the head in front of forty+ witnesses, I think Hank might have a little reason to be ticked.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, she really should’ve done this, only "dressed" as Gambit. It’d have been a saner plan to make Rogue dump him than her trying to get into his pants.
> > > >
> > > > Rogue would have gone "But sugah, Gambie wouldn’t do such a thing! It must be ah impersoatoh."
> > > >
> > > > Mystique’s mistake was not videoing it. And then forcing Rogue to watch it with her eyes glued open until she felt nothing but hate for Gambit.
> > >
> > > That, or just dressing up as Gambit and having the sex right in front of Rogue. Possibly even involving someone else.
> >
> > Again, it's one of these things - when Mystique is clearly being had sex with Gambit by (Work THAT one out! ;\) ), she can't be him and Rogue's suspicions go to Gambit. If Mystique's involved and the woman isn't Mystique, well...
>
> It's not as if it'd be hard for Mystique to arrange for someone else to sleep woth Gambit and then show Rogue. "See, it can't be me, coz I'm right here! DTMFA!"

If she was smart enough, she'd just have read Gambit's own book, and stolen the Gambit sex-tape from it.

> > > > > And if Beast was deadgonenotcomingback, he doesn’t know/care/be aware that he’s been cloned and replaced. If he does come back, well, he’s a scientist, he should respect the advances in cloning technology that will soon make other methods of producing new humans outdated and irrelevant.
> > > >
> > > > Ever tried to photocopy a photocopy of a photocopy? It doesn’t look much like the original by that point, which would be the problem with mass-scale cloning-as-reproduction. It’s the ultimate in inbreeding.
> > >
> > > Which is why you prevent that via composite-cloning from various DNA sources.
> >
> > That's... not really "cloning".

It's composite-cloning, which uses cloning technology.

> > And you're endorsing Johns' Stupid Superboy Retcons now?
>
> Eh, I actually didn't mind that one all told.

I learned to live with it. It's about the only way Lex and Clark ever will make a baby.

> > > Such as using the DNA of history’s greatest leaders to create an Emperor of the World.
> >
> > A guy who wears the goofiest snake costume known to existence?

You should just be thankful you have an emperor who WEARS cloths, as opposed to the naked one from that story.

And I like that snake costume.

> Goofier than Cottonmouth of the Serpent Society?

I like that snake costume, too...

> > > > > > c) We’ve been over this. Firstly, Stark went to Thor, not the other way around. If Thor had any plans to go after Stark, Richards and Pym, it certainly wasn’t at the top of his priority list - Richards & Pym apparently have a better sense of self-preservation.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Internets honestly need to just call a mortatorium on holding anything Stark does when written by JMS or Jenkins against him, since they’re just going out of their way to make him look like crap.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Secondly, if it hadn’t been for Stark, it wouldn’t have happened - it was his idea, and he supplied the DNA sample. He gets at least a third of the blame.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, but it’s not like Richard and Pym would’ve been up for any kind of punishment had they objected/refused/backed down from the task, nor if they ’failed’ to accomplish it. If they had any problem with doing so, they could easily have just not done it.
> > > >
> > > > "At least a third of the blame" != "all the blame"
> > >
> > > I reiterate that one does not "blame" anyone for a Cyborg Thor Clone. One THANKS them for creating Awesome.
> >
> > Even if the "One" has a surname of Foster?

He'll get over it now he's a superhero?

> That was possibly the dumbest moment in Civil War, really, sacrificing Marvel's only halfway respectable size-changer in the name of false "balance."

We still have Cassie Lang and...uh...the Growing Man?

I get the logic behind "kill someone that'll actually stay dead", but having someone else just take over the ID is as missing the point as just bringing him right back. And as utterly expendable size-changers go, it really should've been Josten, had he not been rendered virtually unkillable for no good reason.

> > > > > > Thirdly, Richards was only an acquaintance to Thor rather than a close friend or ally, and Thor was closer to Stark than to Pym. Ergo, him arranging it would hurt most.
> > > > >
> > > > > Their brief team-up in ’Ragnarok’ aside, the Thor/Stark friendship had already been sundered back in ’Standoff’, remember? Stark’s anti-Thor armour? War in Eastern Europe? Have we all forgotten already?
> > > >
> > > > [Jetstorm] Say what? [/Jetstorm]
> > >
> > > If only there were some resource on this Internets whereby I might prove it happened.
> >
> > Prove what happened?
>
> Things have happened at some point?

Things used to happen, so they tell me.

> > > > *draws your attention to their interaction in Ragnarok, which wasn’t the actions of people who are working together only because they have no choice.
> > >
> > > You missed the pages where they kept flipping each other off?
> >
> > They seem to be missing from my copy of #81 somehow...
>
> Ditto.

Trust me, there were flip-offs all over the place.

> It's not as if Marvel will ever really permanently break up the Big Three. The Avengers always eventually needs them back for a Big Iconic Moment.

You say that, but between the early '80s, shortly after the 2nd Shooter run, all the way through to Heroes Reborn, they're hardly EVER in the same place at the same time, especially in the Avengers titles themselves. I don't think it's in any way as necessary to the franchise as we've been made to believe it is.

> > > > Plus, they teamed up in Amazing Spider-Man #498-500 (v2 #57-59) after Thor was merged back together but before Ragnarok.*
> > >
> > > ...whuh? I remember Spidey spending #500 on some time-travel thingy.
> >
> > He did. Before that, and after the reset-button got hit.
>
> Yep.

So....how/why were Thor and Tony there?

> > > > > Thor’s all about using his power to protect Earth. Stark, Pym and Richards should be smart enough to explain to him that cloning him enables him to go on protecting Earth from monsters/aliens/dangerous unregistered superhuman criminals, long after his death.
> > > >
> > > > Thor seemed more ticked about hero vs. hero than any possibility of that.
> > >
> > > Well, given that he’s never had a problem with "hero vs criminal" before, nothing much should change for him.
> >
> > Thor's never been that interested in "The Law" - why do you think Odin kept depowering him?! And I don't think he's ever considered Cap a criminal.

While that may be true, if he has so little interest in "the law", one has to wonder why he ever bothered fighting super-criminals like Mr Hyde/Absorbing Man/the Wrecking Crew as much as he did.

> Odin kept depowering him for no paying attention to dotty old Odin, and because Loki is usually smarter than both of them together.

Yes, Thor has more Daddy Issues than a villain in a DeMatteis-written superhero comic and any given member of the Summers family put together.


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