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Post By
Tom

In Reply To
mjyoung

Subj: Re: Opinion vs Logic
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 at 01:51:19 pm CDT (Viewed 7 times)
Reply Subj: Re: Opinion vs Logic
Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 at 09:42:04 pm CDT (Viewed 315 times)




    Quote:
    So you say cronyism exists today, in the 00s and 70s. We can also factor in the 90s and the 60s. So really the only decade where there supposedly wasn't any cronyism was the 80s? I find that hard to beleive. Even Shooter had his favorite creators. Perhaps you've just come to idealize that decade for nostaliga?


First, I wasn't old enough to read when Shooter was EiC so it isn't nostalgia.

Having said that I have read a lot on the history of Marvel and for most of its history croneyism wasn't a problem. The two times it became a problem were...

1. The revolving EiC days between Stan Lee and Shooter: This was a period where Stan tried to foist the job onto writers who didn't want it. The result was 5 EiCs in 6 years (Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Gerry Conway and Archie Goodwin). During this time a bureaucracy to keep the place going during all the chaos and that led to croneyism.

2. The end of Harras' run through today: Harras legitimately thought his friends could lift sales because he hired all his old X-Men staff and they'd sold in the past. But it didn't work and that set a precedent that Quesada happily followed. Comic sales are still in the toilet over 15 years after the crash of the mid-90s because Quesada's only tool to increase sales are (a) crossovers and (b) sticking Spider-Man and Wolverine in every book.

So other than a brief 6 year period in the 70s the only time croneyism has been a problem is in recent years and it shows in the sales numbers. Again I go back to the numbers I quoted before. The U.S. population has gone up by 35% since 1984 yet Secret Wars sold 750,000 copies per month while AvX can't get over 160,000.

You can't blame marketing. Avengers just became the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time. So people know about comics they just aren't buying them.


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      Quote:
      I mean, Dazzler #1 was Marvel's first direct market only book and it's first issue sold 428,000 copies in 1981 compared to 200,000 for AvX #1.

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        Because when you reward success and get rid of writers that fail the books get better and sales go up.



    Quote:
    What does those two things have to do with anything?


Because Croneyism is allowing your buddies to do what they want despite market forces (a.k.a. Sales). So sales go down when you have croneyism because you aren't giving the readers what they want.


    Quote:
    You said "The Marvel "architects" are in the place they are because they're part of Marvel's upper management clique."



    Quote:
    Saying Bendis was wrong for Moon Knight is your opinion, which you don't seem to back up, but has nothing to do with anything here. Marvel gave him the book because he wanted it and because they thought it would be a good idea to have that series.


No, I said that based on the sales of the book. I never read Moon Knight (I don't like the character).


    Quote:
    IronMan was at 35K when Fraction took over in 2008. That's pretty much where the book is now. Wouldn't call that tanking.


Unless you look at where Fraction brought it up to. In 2008 Invincible Iron Man #2 sold 69,000 copies. By issue 7 it was still at 50,000. Again, I'm not saying Fraction wasn't good I'm saying he's gotten to stay on the title longer than he should have because he's allowed to decide when he leaves. The editor can't say "Hey Matt, you did great work here but it obviously isn't connecting with the readers anymore so it's time to move on".


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      But the larger point is you're making a market argument for the current Marvel architects. I've shown you they often don't sell well. So your argument is invalid. Bendis, Fraction, et al. aren't always popular yet other writers aren't given the chance to step in.



    Quote:
    Not sure why anything I have said is invalid. Do you want to have a discusion about sales? If Hickman, Brubaker, Bendis, etc aren't successful and popular writers, who would be?


I don't know. That's the point. The way a market based process works is you fire people who aren't successful, hire someone else and see how they do. Then repeat that process until you find a winner. A good editor is someone who can pick successful people without having to go through that process. I am not skilled as an editor so I couldn't tell you who would be but there are people who can.



    Quote:
    Bendis is a popular writer who typically has very high sales. Even outside of Marvel he's had success with the books he's been involved with (like Powers). Outside of comics he's also had alot of success, being a consultant on Marvel movies and cartoons.


Bendis has certain talents and when he's given a job that reflects those talents he's successful. I very much enjoy Powers and Ultimate Spider-Man. But his skills aren't appropriate in other books. Is this really so hard a concept to understand?





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