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Post By
bouken red

In Reply To
Grey Gargoyle

Subj: I have also seen the Winter Soldier movie...i did piece Cap's reservations
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 at 01:15:39 pm EDT (Viewed 9 times)
Reply Subj: Re: I've seen Civil War twice...i honestly did not like it. It was much ado about nothing.
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 at 10:30:37 am EDT (Viewed 9 times)

Previous Post

    Captain America made no sense. He did not want the Avengers to be under the UN, when all the while they have been working with SHIELD. SHIELD is a covert agency under the US government. That is no different than being under the UN.

Well, in the cinematic universe, SHIELD was working for the World Security Council, which was a "covert operation" of the UN Security Council.
Unfortunately, in Captain America Winter Soldier, SHIELD & the Council had been infiltrated by HYDRA, starting when Arnim Zola was working for Operation Paperclip in the 1950s.
HYDRA had also infiltrated USSR at the same time.
After WWII, the Winter Soldier was an attempt to create an obedient super soldier working for Zola & HYDRA.
Also, it is assumed that the Winter Soldier has been also used for political assassination by the USSR & HYDRA's SHIELD corrupt members.
It explains why Cap doesn't want the Avengers to be controlled by Ross and the "Sokovia Accords" because he doesn't want history to repeat itself.

    The Sokovia Accord was only meant to lessen casualties, and it gives them authority and jurisdiction when they go after Hydra or whomever to various parts of the globe. A wholly private organization cannot do that. They do not have jurisdiction and they cannot impose their will on foreign sovereign borders. If they kill someone, even a thug, even by accident, if without authority, that is homicide. They will be criminally liable.

    Besides which, Captain Steve Rogers should be used to it by now, since he came from the military. He is afraid that the Avengers will be used for other people's agenda? They need not obey illegal and unconscionable orders, even in the military.

    Going after Winter Soldier instead of cooperating with Black Widow and the other Avengers is cocky. Ross was right, they could have spared a lot of lives had Rogers cooperated. And to interfer in the apprehension of a known criminal is obstruction of justice. Captain America violated a lot of laws just because he thinks he is the best one for the job, instead of cooperating with authorities. That's arrogance.

    So, the lives of Antman, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Falcon and Black Widow got ruined (from being Avengers to fugitives) because Captain America thought he knows best.

    In my second viewing, i realized that Tony Stark gave him plenty of chances to make things right....first, during the avengers meeting (which got interrupted by the death of his old flame). Second, during the funeral, Black Widow tried to talk to him about keeping the Avengers together, nothing. Third, after they were captured, Tony gave him a pen to sign the Sokovian Accord, nothing. Fourth, even after all the laws Cap broke, during the airport confrontation, Tony told him that he was ordered to bring in the Winter Soldier, could he help a brother out...nothing. In those instances, Captain America could have confided to Tony Stark about the Zemo threat and that Bucky was being framed...they could have turned in the Winter Soldier provisionally and the Avengers could have investigated the threat....TOGETHER. That was the lesson Tony learned from Steve in Age of Ultron, which Cap forgot in this movie.

Indeed, that's why Tony Stark's point of view was perfectly understandable and why I thought that the movie was interesting.

Actually, Bucky has always been the Achilles'heel of Captain America, since he has been his best friend from the beginning and he feels responsible for Barnes' apparent death and transformation into the Winter Soldier.
It explains the irrational behaviour.
It is also coherent with his history in the comic books : he became "Nomad", an outlaw vigilante, after discovering that "Nixon" was the head of the Secret Empire.
In the cinematic universe, he had just discovered that Pierce, the head of SHIELD, was a high-ranking HYDRA member who had planned to use the SHIELD helicarriers to monitor all people that the World Security Council deemed to be threats.

I thought that the movie was also an interesting metaphor about the Iraq War.
Contrary to the Civil War comic book, I also thought that neither Cap nor Tony are 100% heroes in this movie and are more like humans with weaknesses, which is interesting.

But it still do not make his actions legal in this movie. He is still a criminal, by all accounts.

He do not want the Avengers to be used by those with unlawful interests? He doesn't have to obey illegal orders. But the activities of the Avengers cannot go unchecked.

He is responsible for Bucky? Ok. I get it. But it would have been a better ending if Steve had owned up to everything and surrendered to the authorities. At least that would have made him an actual hero.

In this movie, there is really nothing heroic about his actions. He didn't want to answer to the UN. He thought he was the only one to bring in Bucky. After he learned that there is the Zemo threat, instead of seeking help from Tony, he involved other civilians to his cause, which in turn ruined their lives. Wanda was not in danger in the Compound, he had Hawkeye break her out, only to be captured and placed in custody and become a fugitive at the end of the movie. Hawkeye retired to be with his family, now where is he? Along with Sharon Carter and Ant-Man, all fugitives from justice. Oh man! What about Ant Man's daughter? So many lives, ruined, and for what???? Playing into Zemo's plans. The empire he wanted toppled has always been the Avengers all along, not any other country that Steve and Bucky hastily concluded would be his target. So in this case, the bad guy won by succeeding on his plan. The fact that he is in jail is of no consequence, since he accomplished what he set out to do and he was going to kill himself after all. The bad guy won, the Avengers divided, Bucky is back in the feeezer and some heroes are now criminals all because of Captain America. "Woopee".

Ohhh...and it's not a "metaphor". A metaphor is a figure of speech which likens something to another different thing without using the words "like" or "as". The classic example is "all the world is a stage". That is an example of a metaphor. If you mean something like Planet of the Apes as another way of showing man's inhumanity through the perspective of apes...then it becomes "allegorical", not a metaphor. Besides...i see no correlation with the Iraq war...that is totally not even hinted at. That is reading too much into the story.

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