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Member Since: Sat May 17, 2008
Posts: 1,789
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bouken red

Subj: Re: I have also seen the Winter Soldier movie...i did piece Cap's reservations
Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 at 07:33:52 am EDT (Viewed 279 times)
Reply Subj: I have also seen the Winter Soldier movie...i did piece Cap's reservations
Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 at 01:15:39 pm EDT (Viewed 9 times)

Red, you seem to be very, very picky about the movie's finer plot points, but your arguments don't make much sense. Lets' go...

    But it still do not make his actions legal in this movie. He is still a criminal, by all accounts.

The whole thrust of the movie (and the comic-book) was not, "who's a criminal and who isn't". It's about doing the RIGHT THING. It's about making a stand where you think the law is wrong, because, you know, it quite often is! That there were several complex issues around both Tony and Steve's positions is what made this movie interesting and intelligent.

    He do not want the Avengers to be used by those with unlawful interests? He doesn't have to obey illegal orders. But the activities of the Avengers cannot go unchecked.

No, you're wrong, he would have had to undertake missions that he didn't agree with. This was made implicitly clear by Cap himself in the film, when he was discussing the Avengers' coming under new control. Your second point is not without merit, but's Cap's view is that the Avenger's do far more good than bad. E.g. Sokovia was an extinction level event, so THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE saved by Avengers. Ditto Loki's alien invasion.

    He is responsible for Bucky? Ok. I get it. But it would have been a better ending if Steve had owned up to everything and surrendered to the authorities. At least that would have made him an actual hero.

No. Bucky was to be taken in dead or alive - most probably dead. He was captured and brainwashed, which meant he was a victim, albeit a dangerous one - not a common criminal. Would you leave your friend, someone who had fought for their country (and others) for dead?

    In this movie, there is really nothing heroic about his actions. He didn't want to answer to the UN. He thought he was the only one to bring in Bucky. After he learned that there is the Zemo threat, instead of seeking help from Tony, he involved other civilians to his cause, which in turn ruined their lives. Wanda was not in danger in the Compound, he had Hawkeye break her out, only to be captured and placed in custody and become a fugitive at the end of the movie. Hawkeye retired to be with his family, now where is he? Along with Sharon Carter and Ant-Man, all fugitives from justice. Oh man! What about Ant Man's daughter? So many lives, ruined, and for what???? Playing into Zemo's plans. The empire he wanted toppled has always been the Avengers all along, not any other country that Steve and Bucky hastily concluded would be his target. So in this case, the bad guy won by succeeding on his plan. The fact that he is in jail is of no consequence, since he accomplished what he set out to do and he was going to kill himself after all. The bad guy won, the Avengers divided, Bucky is back in the feeezer and some heroes are now criminals all because of Captain America. "Woopee".

Well, you have to fight for what you believe in. Once battle lines are drawn events will inevitably spin out of control. When open dialogue fails, that's how it happens in comic-books, literature and real life and that's how it happened here. I personally believe that Tony, given his supposed intelligence would have been open to abandoning his closed-mindedness earlier, but these are flawed characters...human. Interestingly, this is one major aspect that has gone down so well with the critics. That the film was able to balance all this whilst assembling the biggest cast, introducing new characters and setting up the next films was no mean achievement.

    Ohhh...and it's not a "metaphor". A metaphor is a figure of speech which likens something to another different thing without using the words "like" or "as". The classic example is "all the world is a stage". That is an example of a metaphor. If you mean something like Planet of the Apes as another way of showing man's inhumanity through the perspective of apes...then it becomes "allegorical", not a metaphor. Besides...i see no correlation with the Iraq war...that is totally not even hinted at. That is reading too much into the story.

I'll ignore this, but for someone who complained that I was rude over on the Thor Board (and I did apologise) this seems pretty condescending - I think we all understood the point that was being made, no? Are you a grammar teacher or just a punctilious perfectionist? \:\-\)

I'm interested - for someone who seems very dissatisfied with the film why did you see it twice? I wound't pay twice for something I didn't like.